[Quadcammer]

I'll give you an outsiders prospective.

I like the 126 and the 140. But since I don't have room for a third car, there is no way i can own one. I simply won't buy a 20+ year car as a daily car for several reasons.

Safety. While its built well, there is something about 14 airbags from every angle. Not to mention the brakes and traction/stability control are very useful. No 4matic option

Performance. Unless you get a 560, acceleration is not impressive, and the 4 speed tranny just leaves something to be desired. Ride comfort is great, body roll is a bit exaggerated.

Looks: Great, no problems there

Interior: Nice appearing, but short on options. Im not a tech freak, and I don't need every option, but things like parktronic, keyless go, navigation, heated/cooled/dynamic/massaging seats, sophisticated 4 zone climate control, etc are simply nice to have. Not to mention the extremely comfortable seats and serene quiet. The 126 steering wheel and gauges are also a bit aged looking to me.

I think most enthusiasts who own new cars would like an older benz, as would I if I had the space. People who don't care about cars and are into it for the status symbol just want new and expensive, doesn't matter what.

 

[Quadcammer]

Yes the new ones are nice but you can not work on them, you need a full comptuer shop to plug the car into to see what is wrong.

pretty common misconception.

engine/obdII codes can be read with a $30 code reader. A/C codes come up on the display. Things like seat heaters, sam modules, and the like are easy enough to figure out with some old fashion diagnosing.

While the $5,000 SDS computer is very helpful, its not necessary for a good amount of stuff.

 

[Quadcammer]

I agree that people WON'T work on them, but that doesn't mean they CAN'T work on them.

 

[Quadcammer]

Uhm, what about the CL600 owner and all that sh*T they face, OBD reader or not?

Parts, as technology increases (and failure rates go up), go higher as the years progress.

like what? the ABC suspension? only thing you really need SDS for there is the rodeo procedure.

coil packs are easy to diagnose.

Most techs these days have lost the art of mechanical diagnosis and rely solely on a computer to tell them whats wrong. Its great for high volume flat rate places, but just because its easier and quicker doesn't mean it can't be done without.



As for the ML, well, that is not, and never has been, a good model for MB.

 

[Quadcammer]

Let a new car hit one of our true classics, and they will fold like an accordian while we may just need some paint touch-up!

You seem to indicate that as being positive. That is part of the reason the new cars are safer. In the 116/126, you are what is absorbing the energy, where as in the newer models, the car absorbs the energy, hence its "foldling like an accordian".

Thats the only thing that bothers me about the old car owners.

They think their quality is second to none (yet can never explain why, except for "it feels high quality"), they think that its safer (its not, crumple zones are there for a reason), and they think that nothing matches its "classiness".

I think we all justify our purchases to ourselves, but it can come off a bit like sour grapes.

 

[Quadcammer]

very eloquently put. I agree that for their time, they represented the pinnacle of engineering, as the new S-class does today. Evolution is simply unavoidable.

 

[Quadcammer]

Not quite. MB pioneered crumple zones back in the 50's and all models since have had them, including the 116 and 126, so the "you are what is absorbing the energy" is totally false. In fact all cars, even the lowly Korean makes, have crumple zones now. You might also be interested to know that the 126 was the first MB equipped with airbags. Take a look at the picture of Picklesam's recently totaled 560 SEC and you will see graphic evidence of crumple zones in a W126. In addition, the gauge and quality of the German made steel 20-30 years ago was superior to the cheap Asian steel used now.

It is also a well known fact (at least in MB enthusiast circles) that MB stopped overengineering their cars in the 90's in order to compete with the Japanese move upmarket (Infinity & Lexus), as well as MB's precipitous drop in quality as measured by JD Power during the Daimler/Chrysler years, so there exists empirical, objective proof of MB's slide in quality in recent years.

"Classiness" is subjective, but the boring sameness (yes I know there are exceptions) of today's cars argues against applying the "classy" label to them. New cars are today's drivers and tomorrow's beaters.

As to "sour grapes", most folks here are more than capable of buying a new MB or anything else within reason, they just choose not to for the aforementioned reasons.

Im aware of the crumple zones, but if you see what I originally quoted, it might help you to understand my statements more clearly.

Quite frankly, a single ds airbag from 198X vs head, knee, side etc airbags and more advanced crumple zones? Im not saying that the 116 or 126 are inherently unsafe, but the newer models are safer. period.

Asian steel? Have any proof of this or is this simply conjecture?

Not one person can prove to me that this "overengineering" that you speak of results in any measurably better level of quality or reliability. I also think this recent quality deficiency that you mention is more the result of others improving, and MB using some business sense. I don't believe that 90s MBs are any more reliable than the new stuff, and the 140 provides plenty of evidence. Furthermore, a 126 has pretty limited features and options, which results in less things to break. When you add 500 features, the likelihood that something breaks increases.

I'm not quite sure I understand the "boring sameness" that you are referring to. Maybe you could elaborate... Not to be rude, but many 126s are today's beaters...


I sort of doubt that many 126 owners (not just the ones on this site, but overall) are able to go out and purchase a 221 S550, but I could be wrong. Also, that seems to be the standard argument. I really doubt that many people would take a 126 500sel over a 2009 S65.

 

[Quadcammer]

You bring up some interesting points, but from the examples you provide, I'm simply not seeing the shocking disconnect that is often reported. I suppose Im not one to worry about wire supports and countersunk screws, but it seems to be that MB's level of interior/exterior finishing is still exemplary.

Also, some things are simply engineering for engineering's sake. Why make a cadmium plated bracket when a simple plastic wire tie works just as well, yet costs less, weighs less, and takes up less space?

Although MB may have changed, the world has also changed, and MB has had to change with it. I don't know how many people would want a 4700lb E-class which costs $95k and gets 15mpg. (just an example)

 

[Quadcammer]

IMO there are at least three main types of old Mercedes owners:

1. A kid or wannabe looking for a cheap way to look richer (usually not long term)
2. An original owner or close to it (family car etc.) maintaining an heirloom
3. Someone who appreciates the history/looks/engineering of an older Mercedes and is willing to forgo some modern bling/gadgets to continue to enjoy it for what it is

IMO there are at least three main types of new Mercedes owners:

1. A kid or wannabe looking for a way to look richer (usually not long term)
2. A legacy owner or close to it (family has owned only them etc.) maintaining a tradition
3. Someone who appreciates the history/looks/engineering of a Mercedes and finds a current model acceptable and is willing to pony up to enjoy it

These aged cars are not cheap to own or operate long term. Yes you can buy one in good shape and neglect it - it will be cheap to run until the lack of maintenance catches up with you (it will catch up). Then it will cost close to a new car payment or more per month (averaged over time) until it is returned to a proper state.

Where there were stainless steel screws there are now plastic snaps. While this may say nothing to the 3-4 year "owner" this speaks volumes to me. It says that the manufacturer is building a car to have a definite and short lifespan. Not just some of its parts, such as a water pump or a transmission, but the whole unit.

Sadly I don't think any of us here in the w126 forum can come up with a good argument for a fellow who bought a new car we deem/B] as in any way inferior to an older benz. He spent 60k+ for his driveway "trophy", we (original owners excluded) have paid much less for ours.

Call it reverse snobbism, but if he were anything but a #1 (see the above list) he wouldn't be here arguing with us about the quality and safety of our cars, he would understand what a Mercedes is now and was then (that would make him a #3). So maybe we should just be content in knowing we are happy with our choice to drive inferior old cars. I am...

I agree with your classification of older mercedes owners, but not of new mercedes owners.

I think many new MB owners are not at all car enthusiasts, and simply want an excellent combination of safety, style, performance and features. In my opinion, that is where MB has, and always will, excel.

2. If your 126 costs the $900 a month that an S550 goes for over several years, I would be truly embarrassed. Why I wonder, does such a high quality vehicle need THAT much in repairs? Thats about $11,000 a year, or twice the value of a clean 126, every year. Either your figures are incorrect, or the 126 has more issues than I realized.

3. Yes, plastic has replaced metal, and I don't like that either. That said, technology has come quite a ways and plastic can perform as well or better than metal, while being cheaper to produce, easier to assemble, and less prone to rusting. Also keep in mind that even the highest end vehicles today use a considerable amount of plastic. Its a simple shift in technology, not necessarily a decline in quality. If the plastic snaps broke constantly, you'd have a point, but my car just hit the 4 year old mark, and nothing has fallen off, so I'd say the plastic snaps are still doing their job in an acceptable fashion.

4. The important part of this paragraph is the "we deem". You think the newer cars are inferior due to a lack of quality, but aside from the "it used to have metal x, y, or x, which is now plastic), I haven't heard a single reason why the older cars are higher quality. I begin to wonder how some of you define quality in fact, and im truly curious. For instance, the newer 600/65 series cars have leather dashes and door panels, whereas even the top of the line 126 had vinyl. That to me says something of the quality...

I tend to think the W126 is inferior to the massively "dissed" 220. Reasons: The 220 is safer, better performance, more ability to customize the ride from the factory (airmatic settings), a quieter and more comfortable interior, excellent options, etc. I realize those things are expected from 20 years of progress, but since some of you make the direct comparison, I shall do the same.

Also, Im slightly offended that some of you think that new MB's are only useful as a "trophy". If you don't think something like a 221 S600 drives well and performs very well, I struggle to call you a car enthusiast.

5. Apparently I don't understand what MB was then, and what it is now. That said, in the late 70s and early 80s, there was basically no competition in this class. When the Lexus Ls400 came out in 1989, it cleaned MB's clock. So before that happened, MB was the gold standard. Now that other companies have caught up, MB's star doesn't shine as brightly as it did. However, if they still decided to waste money on overengineering things and using metal when plastics can and do work better, they would have gone out of business long ago.

 

[Quadcammer]

Airmatic??? You got to be kidding!! ABC - there's another winner. Have a cursory browse through the 220, CL and CLS forums if you think these "excellent options" are so great. These are following in the footsteps of the wonderful biodegradeable/disintigrating wiring harnesses of the 90's.

I am friends with several factory trained MB mechanics who told me on more than one occasion that if I bought a new MB make sure I dumped it before the warranty ran out - thats rather telling isn't it?

yes, airmatic and ABC are absolutely fantastic systems. Parts are not expensive, and later models rarely have problems on Airmatic. ABC is problematic, but the body control and ride quality make up for any shortcomings. Try getting a smooth comfortable ride, and decent handling on a 126 with 19-20" rims. Not happening.

As for perusing the forums, just about every single automotive forum is filled with problems and complaints, just by the nature of what most people use these forums for: problem solving. Most people don't have the time or interest to make a post about every time something DIDN'T break.

You guys replace bushings and wheel bearings, we replace strut tops. What exactly is the difference? Early ignorance on these systems is what caused the hysteria. Nowadays, airmatic problems are hardly a cause for major concern.

Your tech's comments mean absolutely nothing unless you can tell me what techs were saying when the 126 was fairly new. Furthermore, if 126s really need $11k in repair and maintenance every year, I'd much rather own even a 2000 S500 because it will cost a whole lot less to repair/maintain.

 

[Quadcammer]

Seems there are a lot of misconceptions regarding the new MBs.

I've heard the same thing from a veteran German trained MB tech. He basically said after the mid nineties quality went WAY down and was no better than an average car. Bells and whistles and gorgeous styling aside, I regularly hear horror stories of unreliability and electrical nightmares afflicting the newer models.

A friend of mine who is a total car guy and has the opportunity to drive and own the most exotic cars in the world (he supplies cars for studies and also tears them apart) was totally turned off to the brand after his experiences. Honestly I'm not making this up.

Having said that, I still droll over some of the newer models but would only own one with full warranty.

quality how? of materials? of design? of assembly?

hard to compare the reliability of electronics when the early models had power seats, mirrors, windows, and maybe heated seats...and thats it, versus voice recognition, comand navigation, digital front and rear climate control, heated, cooled, dyamic massaging seats, distronic cruise control, parktronic keyless go, etc. They are simply not directly comparable. You could argue that MB should ditch these things, but that is what buyers want.

 

[Quadcammer]

In 15-20 years, is the average owner going to be able to fix all these systems, with regular simple tools, as we are on our 126's today?

And no, not all buyers "want" those features. I don't, and I certainly don't need them. Have you ever seen a really wrecked 126? They are amazingly safe, even without many airbags. I have two to prove it.

In 15 years, the SDS system used to repair the current generation of vehicles will be readily available and inexpensive. Therefore, it should not be much of an issue. However, thats a pretty silly argument given that everything on the planet has gotten more complicated.

MB is certainly not in the business of creating and instituting options that nobody wants. There may be some things that people don't love or don't want, but the majority of buyers are seeking a highly level of optionality on a luxury car. In 1986, front and rear heated seats were hot stuff...today, that bar has been raised significantly.

The 126 is a safe car, but the newer ones are safer. period.

 

[Quadcammer]

1. When I first came to the tech's shop for an inspection on my w126 he made a comment about what fine cars these were. I did not solicit this comment.

2. While my car was on the hoist, he took me to a newer (early to mid 2000's as I recall) MB sedan and expressed how the doors where tinny and hollow in comparison (didn't have the bank vault solidness).

3. He then proceeded to show me the leather and door panels exclaiming how the leather was thinner and of a lesser quality.

4. But it did point to the fact that there has been a general democratization of quality between marques which is where MB ended up. They were in exclusive territory prior to that.


5. It a different world out there today than it was 20 years ago and in some cases not all for the better.

Numbered for ease of response:

1. Most techs are not in the habit of insulting owners cars in front of them, and yet, I don't disagree with his comment that its a fine car. to imply that newer ones aren't is my problem.

2. The sound the doors make is highly subjective. To me, nothing closes quite like an aircooled 911 door. That said, I've opened and closed many a 140, 126, 220, and 210 door, and noticed no major differences in feel or solidity. The only difference I did note between my 220s and a 126 is that my doors suck shut, so there was no need to even close the door.

3. I'm a bit curious as to this technicians knowledge on the quality of leather. Hard to tell from a cursory overview. I'll take your word on this, but also I'd like to note that thinner leather doesn't mean lower quality leather. Once again that nasty technology thing applies to leather fabrication techniques as well. Same goes for the door panels.

4. I would say thats a result of other marques getting better, and not so much MB getting worse.

5. Agree, but emphasize the word "some".

1. Everything is multiplexed and there are multiple modules that communicate together on a common, little intranet in the car called a CAN bus. CAN= Controller Area Network. Many of the multiplexed electronics are not just digital on/off signals either- they use a lot of resistors. 8, 10, or more switches linked together with 2 wires out... with each switch introducing a different resistance value. It communicates that value to a module which communicates a command to another module, and then something happens.

One pinched wire and a module goes off line. Now you've suddenly lost something major. None of the windows will open. The instrument panel is dead. The radio won't work. It wont start. Nothing works. Because of one failed wire. Take that to your corner garage for diagnostics...

2. Is it simple to work on? Yes, with the correct tools. Are these vehicles going to last 20-30 years? Nope. I don't care if Hyundai built it or MB. They are going to depreciate faster and every repair is going to cost more than it's worth in 20 years. They are going to deteriorate with time, and every year and pothole that goes by is going to cause further deterioration, even if you can keep it clean and new looking.

It's already happening.

3. Buy a 1996 MB with 100,000 miles. Say an E-320. It's a fine car. Until the check engine light comes on. Then go trade it in fast. Here in NY State- It might cost you $1500 to get it through inspection. That's pretty much a worst case scenario, but it's the reality.

4. Sorry Oliver, but you're dead wrong. That's not an opinion of mine, it's just a fact. I'm telling you this as a paid technician who works in the field and can easily afford to buy your car. (Not that it's anyone's business).

5. You own a good car. And it should remain faithful to you for a few more years. If you buy cars for safety, styling, or whatever, and you have the money to spend on it, go for it. Nobody is telling you not to. Continue to buy them every few years if you like them, and you'll always think you have a reliable car. What you cannot do is speak for it's long term reliability, which will be directly proportionate to it's quality. Your 2005 model is not old enough yet.

6. It used to be when you went to the junkyard, you would come across many damaged, smashed, wrecked, or rotted out old cars that were 15-20 years old. Now when you go you are seeing more and more 8-10 year old cars that look like very serviceable. They just aren't worth it to people.

7. The old MB's will prove their worth in another 10 years when many of them are STILL going.

1. Try to run as many electronics as a modern MB has with standard wiring and let me know how it goes. Yes having everything run through a few SAMs can be hard to diagnose and a pain to repair. Having 50 miles of wiring running throughout the car would be no picnic either. Some interesting points here and thank you for your expertise on the cars wiring. I would like to counter a few points. Also, why would I go to my corner garage? If my vehicle has a malfunction that I am not able to diagnose myself, I'll simply call MB roadside assistance, have the vehicle taken to a dealer, they will repair it while I drive a loaner for a few days, and I'll get it back ready to go. I have really no qualms about paying $115 an hour to have a sophisticated vehicle's electronics repaired. I haven't found this to be a major issue yet in the 220s, and some of them are touching 10 years old.

2. Odd. Aren't potholes and years going to have the same ravaging effects on the 126? Aren't people talking about timing chain replacements, wheel bearings, and suspension bushings in here? All cars age, and all cars deteriorate. Important to note, the average price of a clean 126 is maybe $5k. Apparently owners spend upwards of $11k per year fixing these things. Doesn't that sort of indicate that once cars are this old, its simply a matter of your attachment to a vehicle, and not the cost benefit of repairing it (because it hardly ever makes sense)? More on that later.

3. For a man who works in electronics, Im very disappointed and shocked by this generalized and frankly ridiculous statement. A check engine light and subsequent code can be retrieved by a $30 code scanner, which will in most cases take you right to the problem. Then some old fashion diagnosis will direct you to replace whatever parts are necessary (most often the 02 sensors and MAF, especially on the 210). In no way shape or form will this run $1500. Check engine lights are usually some of the cheapest and easiest things to repair and I'd much rather plug in my scanner than try to mess around with a CIS or whatever its called on this vintage MB.

4. I haven't really heard what exactly makes the older model better, aside from having less electronics and more wires...

5. I have no interest in owning any car for more than say 8 years. I'll get bored of my 220 (or any car) far before it becomes to unreliable for me...and Im not worried.

6 and 7. Now you are getting into my career, which is finance.

Doing $2k worth of repairs on a car valued at $5k NEVER makes sense from a cost basis standpoint. Whether it be replacing airmatic components or doing a headgasket on a 126, people do it because they love the car not because it makes financial sense. And I can guarantee you there will always be people who love the 220/221, just as there are people who love the 126.

That said, there will always be people who stretch to own a car, and will not have the desire or funds to properly repair something. Spending $20k to fully restore a 1985 300sel would seem absolutely asinine to the average person, and you and I both know it is not a wise financial decision. But you pays your money and you takes your chances, and we all know that not all decisions are made with the brain (as opposed to the heart).

Who is arguing except you? This is a 126 forum, and we love our cars, period!

Seems quite a few people enjoy a spirited conversation on the relative virtues and quality of two eras of vehicles. If you aren't one of them, then you aren't really inclined to continue on in this thread?

I think a good summation of my point is that you simply cannot directly compare a car built in the 1980s with one built in 200X. Its simply apples to oranges. Each one has its virtues, and one is simply not "better" than the other.

 

[Quadcammer]

To OliverK:

In regards to your above post, I have one counter argument as to why a W126 may be > a W221. The cost of repairs annually in ratio to it's "value."

I am recently in the progress of spending over $2k in repairs on my W126, in both upgrades, regular maintenance, and repairs from the accident I suffered. The difference from the newer cars is the fact that it IS "overengineered." I'll put this $2k in this year and be ready for another few years of relatively maintenance free driving. When a 221 gets this age, ~140k miles, it will be needing new fasteners, electronics replacements (silicon is only good for so long), and many more costly repairs more frequently When you bolt down wiring harnesses and connectors with "cadmium plated" brackets and fasteners, you have less vibrational damage, and your pieces will hold up longer without need for replacement.

Plastics age from UV rays, salt (regardless of "washing", whereas a plated bracket will last forever if the paint is kept up and washed), and more susceptible to vibrational damage. Fasteners' cost can add up very very quickly. Especially when it's holding back that $1000 wiring harness, or that $5000 electronic component.

You may be correct, but I haven't seen a whole lot of evidence to show that to be the case.

 

[Quadcammer]

Multiplexing only reduces the lengths of wires, in a modern car, you're still controlling many more devices. It's a shorter run from a module to a device than from a switch to a device in most cases. The only long wires will be between the modules themselves. The AMOUNT of wiring and circuits has increased, overall. More electronics= more circuits= more wires.

I think the original intent of this thread was the old vs. the new. Once cars change hands a few times, the corner garage is where the end up for diagnostics, right or wrong. I happen to disagree with this, but that's the way it is.



Of course potholes and years will deteriorate any vehicle. I suspect that the mechanical cars are going to hold up better than the electronic ones. This is purely speculation on my part.

A W126 is a car that can be rebuilt indefinitely if it is a relatively rust free and good condition car. $11,000 spent in repairs on any car is certainly out of love.. I can't phathom that. I might spend that on ALL my cars in 2 years...

I'd rather pay a few grand for the car, keep it maintained, and drive it into the ground, then buy another and do it again.





Certainly CIS can be very difficult to diagnose and repair. I will not dispute that. I find it fun .

$30 code scanners are good at one thing. Pulling a code. Beyond that they're useless. OK, maybe you can pull a code for the O2 sensor. Chances are that the O2 sensor is defective and needs to be replaced, especially if the vehicle has some miles on it. Beyond that, it's useless. In automotive diagnostics you NEVER EVER use such a device. A DTC (Diagnostic trouble code) is a tool for diagnosis. From this point you should be following a troubleshooting tree and ensuring that the wiring and associated sensors are intact and functioning as designed. You need the correct scan tool to view things like fuel trim, sensor activity, ignition curves, etc, to correctly diagnose problems. I'm not going to tell a customer they need a $20 sensor, let alone an expensive one based on an error code.

Here in NY state a car can sit all winter long when a snowbird flies to Florida to drive their other car. In the spring time when they come home and start their car, chances are some mice have gotten in. The car will almost definitely start and run fine. It will however not pass inspection because one wire in a harness has been chewed through. Or better yet, they chewed the looms off the wiring so that the harness starts to melt or get screwed up somehow. Next thing you know, the check engine light is on, and $1500 would be a good deal to replace a harness on an otherwise seemingly healthy car that runs well.



Less electronics IS BETTER in terms of long term reliability, in general. The older vehicles get, the more electrical problems they have. Of course before you go there, the older they get the more mechanical problems they have. Electrical diagnostics is generally more time consuming and expensive. I'd rather change a head gasket in a 126 than pull apart an interior looking for a wire. Of course If I did have to do that in the 126 I could screw it back together. In something newer, I'd damage the one time use plastic clips.

The more you add, the more there is to break. Simple.



What about the next owner? Somewhere out there is a guy drooling over a car just like yours, and he can't afford to buy it new. By the time it has depreciated so he can afford it, he's buying himself a huge headache. Somewhere this thread turned into a quality discussion. An 8 or 10 year old Mercedes is not a nice reliable vehicle to buy used.




I'd have thought lawyer, lol



I agree.



NO car is a good investment. And Nobody needs to drive a Mercedes, and certainly I can't imagine spending $70,000 or more on a car. That to me is insane. That's too much money for a few years use of a disposable vehicle.

Personally, my cars cost me almost nothing to own, because I repair and maintain them completely myself, excluding tire mounting and alignments. That's a better deal, to me.

I just think the era of the 'Indestructible Mercedes' is long gone. I don't see people wrenching on ANY late 90s or newer Mercedes 20 or 30 years from now.

I think that when I find a mint condition 300CD to baby in the summertime, that as long as I can find an engine for it every 300,000 miles, it really will last forever.

Once you have the car, you can put engines in it for $1000 and transmissions for $600. At 200K, I see the later models headed to the junkyard.

There will be some exceptions, I'm sure, but I have a feeling my forecast is going to be basically true.

I'll take your word on the wiring as I do not have the background to argue your point.

Mechanical cars might hold up better. That said, most suspensions are mechanically based, and as such, all will wear out and need repair.

The $30 scanner was a jumping off point. Reading fuel trims and doing other datalogging is critical, but the obdII system is so straight forward that there just aren't that many options for trouble points that take a whole lot of digging to discover.

I can't speak to vermin infestations, but Im sure that replacing the harness in a 210 or a 126 would be painful to the wallet.

To your point about the clips, if you break one replace it. Nothing to strip, and a new plastic clip assures a tight fit again.

Would the next owner of my car or one like it get a headache? Maybe. I tend to think that proactive maintenance and repairs (e.g. fixing cracks in airmatic strut tops before failure) would really greatly reduce the issues people have with the 220. They are not failure prone unless you allow them to be. That said, its still a $100k vehicle, and commands a commensurate amount of repairs. Parts will generally shock any new MB owner who is used to buying chevy stuff from autozone, regardless of chassis type.

See, I don't think 70k is excessive for a car that is as nice as say a newish s550. They really are some of the finest cars around in my opinion.

I'm sure you could drive a 300CD forever with enough money. That said, you'd have a car that accelerates like a dump truck and lacks a lot of nice features. But if thats your thing, have at it.

Indestructable is a funny word. No car is indestructible as even the 126 experiences parts failures. If you had a budget big enough, you could rebuild your 220 and drive it for as long as you want. Its simply a matter of how much you want to spend doing so, and when it stops making sense.

I think I'm picking up on something I hadn't considered. I drive my mercedes as an every day car. I have ZERO interest in tinkering, working on, or messing with the car frequently. Although I do my own maintenance (as rare as it requires it), it simply doesn't make sense for me to do major repairs, as I could be using that time to do work that produces more value than what I would save if I did the job myself.

I think you guys are more into the "tinkering" phase of MB ownership, and don't mind playing with CIS settings or what have you. I'm a get in and go guy with my benz, and I think only a newer model fulfills that.

That said, I understand the tinkering thing. This will surprise most of you, but I've essentially rebuilt my 99 mustang cobra by hand. Engine rebuild, tranny and rear swap, supercharger install, etc etc. I don't mind working on that on the weekends, but I don't have the desire to devote that kind of time to the MB.

I think its not even so much about the car, but rather about the owner and the ownership experience.

 

[Quadcammer]

Oliver,

You obviously have 1200+ posts so are not a new, yet you talk like a typical 220 owner. Speaking Like as Someone who has taken His car completely apart and put it back together And also as a previous 211 owner, I can tell you that these cars are not the same. I can tell they are made by the same company yes, but not the same cars. The 126's are the LAST Mercedes that you can work on yourself with minimal specialized tools.

I bought my car from a local Indy here in Lancaster that HAS the MB StarTech Computer that plugs into your car and talks to it. I spent 5 months (and 25 grand) in a Hot ass garage here in the Mojave Desert last summer restoring my car to showroom. I did not start out on this car to do that, but it happened. I only meant to freshen the paint and interior and have something to play with. Once I got the car apart for paint, and saw what It could become, I fell more and more in love with it and in restoring her to showroom, or at least as close as I could get it.

When I was doing it, I, having multiple Engineering degrees, wanted all of the things that I had in my "Modern" cars. (On a side note, I bought a NEW E350 and in the first six months had to have the computer replaced THREE times and alsmost filed a Lemon Law Complaint... Three tows from Lancaster to the Valley 60 miles... Three rental cars... What a pain in the ass that was.. GLAD the Ex got it... Ha ha on her...)

I wanted DVD/NAV/Sat radio... Back up camera's... All the James Bond Toys that I could design and build into her. Power, not signal cable is what I ran, and I only ran ONE extra power cable. I am a EE and a CS Engineer, so these were easy...

Was the whole project easy? HELL NO... Were there plenty of moments where someone should have grabbed me and said "Put the checkbook down and step away from the Mercedes"... ?? Hell YES! But as my good friend 48HP says "AMG is a POWERFUL drug" It wasn't even an AMG then, but it is well on it's way now.

Bottom line is that now, after 35K + and 9 months working on it, I have a show piece. One that I built, with my hands, brains and heart. One that can still be worked on by any guy with a Craftsman tool set like mine. Nothing fancy.. No signal decoders.

Being a Computer Engineer now for 30+ years, I have seen car electronics come a long way. Your car and pretty much all MB from the W140 UP can ONLY be diagnosed with the SDS. As for what 20+ years will do to your car, YOU still would not be able to work on it and will be paying someone else to do it. And you will always be paying someone.

Everyday, Everywhere I go, people come up to me and say "What a Beautiful Car" and I reply "Thank You, I did it Myself". I have a unique sense of pride that one cannot get by simply writing a check to someone for something. Even if Barry Taylor were to come up to me and say "Michael, I will build youanything you want for $XX.XXXX Dollars" I would say, "Only if I can help, even if it is only to hand you tools". Once I locate and drop in a AMG DOHC 6.0L 32V 375HP Engine, I will have one of the most rare cars in the Benz Lexicon. Make no mistake, the people that know me will ell you I will, and soon. But know this, I will have done it myself, and NO AMOUNT of money will ever take this car. None. Literally, My Blood, Sweat & Tears have gone into this car. I could NOT have done it on a W140 SEC XXX or a CL500/600. NOT POSSIBLE... IMHO it could only be done on a Post 92 MB.

We now live in a Disposable Culture. That is what has changed. Mercedes has changed with it, that's why their quality has, self-admittedly, gone down. Mercedes recently apologized for this and has said it is going back to the "Old Ways". Maybe they will simplify the wiring? Who knows.
This is the 126 Forum. More of a DIY forum than a "Yeah, I got a new Yacht" Forum like on the 220/221 boards. I really can't see much of a "How do I?" going on there. Maybe I am wrong, I spend no time there.

But here we try to help each other restore these cars to their former glory. The manuals are available here and there are people that know them and these cars and are willing to help the newbies. I have been on both ends of this and I often still am. I post DIY's and I ask for help when I need it. I always give it and usually get it back in spades. You can laugh at our "Quaint Antiques" but we like them. And we love them. We are a big family here on the 126 forum. We fight and we laugh, but we help each other.

I couldn't possibly imagine what you people over on the 220/221 boards talk about? Who the best Mechanic in town is to give your money? What then?

I loved that recent post by 48HP about his fantastic save of that GORGEOUS 500 SEL AMG. That car was one step away from the crusher... He has not told me, nor do I have any knowledge of how much he paid for it and restoring it, but if it's 20K it's a steal.... One of the few "REAL MADE BY AMG IN AFFALTERBACH HE HAS THE DOCUMENTATION TO PROVE IT" cars on the road, and he saved it from the strippers... Bravo.... I want MY sedan to look like that...

Even Charlie's 84 Euro SEC. He saved that car from the crusher and has done all of his own work (mostly) to restore it. Bit by bit, part by part. Now he has a very clean rare Euro coupe. Nothing fancy per se, but a rare clean coupe nonetheless. One beat away from the crusher, now on the road, all by himself.

Ain't gonna happen with your 220/221's... Too complex... Too expensive... They will go the way of the Do Do Bird... Ours will still be driving.... Cuz we love em and will fix em... To use the vernacular...

Just my thoughts...

Ditto on the Lawyer...

Mike, I think your post was simply a long way of saying that 126s are easier to work on, and that you, and other 126 owners enjoy doing so.

To me, I would find having to adjust my fuel injection on my daily driver over the weekend annoying. Having to mess with trans. shift cables after getting home from work would make me angry. On my weekend car, sure. On the daily, no thanks.

Like I said, I think its more about the owner and the experience than about the car.

With enough money, you can purchase every single tool needed to completely rebuild a 220 from front to back for as long as you want to do so. Will it require more money that to do the same on a 126? Absolutely. But at that point, fiscal rationality has gone out the window anyway, so does it really matter?

I may speak like a typical 220 owner, because to some degree I am. I love the smooth ride even on large wheels, I like the gadgets, and the modern design. I absolutely love the car, and like the fact that its been trouble free without any tinkering.

Again, as I said in an early post, I'd like to own a 126 as I think they are cool, but I don't have the space to keep another car.

 

[Quadcammer]

Oh come on, don't be numb. Add more to a vehicle, there's more to fail. That's just common sense.

If cars were not more complicated and prone to failure, then the automotive field would still be dominated by $15/hr flat rate mechanics educated at vocational schools. We still need those guys because tie-rods and things like that need to be changed.

You can now go to college for four years for automotive technology, and there are entire semesters concentrated to the electronics. I actually did go to school for automotive technology, and separately for electrical engineering. I have paperwork stating my knowledge in these fields, but I feel like they barely scratched the surface when it actually comes to working on vehicles in the real world these days.

They need professors retiring from their dealership jobs NOW to go teach those classes. The guys that left the dealerships 10 years ago don't know multiplexing....

This is a very up and coming field in a bad economy right now. I encourage people to get into it.

People are going to always need vehicles repaired, and the industry is going to continue to flood the streets with their overly complicated crap.

It keeps food on the table and the garage full.

Im not trying to be numb. I took his post to reference fasteners and retaining hardware, and vibrations and stuff taking a toll on wiring.

What I would like to see more evidence on is the statement that a 221 will all of a sudden turn to dust at 140k. I simply don't see that as the case, and the 220 is a good stand in here, with arguably even worse quality. There are many 100k+ 220s out there that seem to be relatively trouble free, plastic and all.

You're right, this is too much reading for a friday night. I bid you gentlemen an excellent evening, as the scotch is calling my name.

Cheers!