[akimball442]

I test drove a couple new MB's.... It's still quite a nice drive, but they can keep them....

The vintage MB's were so much more thoughtfully assembled by people who gave a shit... I think like anything else, there's little pride in manufacturing.

Germany outsources things too... Bosch parts are now made in Brazil, India, Japan....

 

[akimball442]

I also collect guitars and have a nice collection of premium new and older axes. Without fail the one that stirs the most emotion amongst players is the '68 blonde Telecaster. It looks like it's been through the war but there's some kind of intrinsic feel, a singleness of purpose, a simple integrity that is hard to define.

That 68 Tele would sound mighty fine through my black-faced 68 twin... eh?

Moving on..

I work in automotive electronics for 40 hours a week. I love and understand electronics. All of the multiplexing in newer vehicles does not bother me, I know how to deal with it, get around it, work on it, etc. Ever had to convert a newer MB for a handicapped customer? I have. That's what a division of my company does. Even sprinters have multiplexed climate controls these days!

Everything is multiplexed and there are multiple modules that communicate together on a common, little intranet in the car called a CAN bus. CAN= Controller Area Network. Many of the multiplexed electronics are not just digital on/off signals either- they use a lot of resistors. 8, 10, or more switches linked together with 2 wires out... with each switch introducing a different resistance value. It communicates that value to a module which communicates a command to another module, and then something happens.

One pinched wire and a module goes off line. Now you've suddenly lost something major. None of the windows will open. The instrument panel is dead. The radio won't work. It wont start. Nothing works. Because of one failed wire. Take that to your corner garage for diagnostics...

Is it simple to work on? Yes, with the correct tools. Are these vehicles going to last 20-30 years? Nope. I don't care if Hyundai built it or MB. They are going to depreciate faster and every repair is going to cost more than it's worth in 20 years. They are going to deteriorate with time, and every year and pothole that goes by is going to cause further deterioration, even if you can keep it clean and new looking.

It's already happening.

Buy a 1996 MB with 100,000 miles. Say an E-320. It's a fine car. Until the check engine light comes on. Then go trade it in fast. Here in NY State- It might cost you $1500 to get it through inspection. That's pretty much a worst case scenario, but it's the reality. But it's the reality for any 1996 Buick, also.

My mother has a 2001 Pontiac Bonneville. That was the first year they fully multiplexed the H chassis at GM. The car has been extremely reliable. It has around 150K miles, and it's 8 years old. All of the electrical gremlins are starting now. Multiple idiot lights, all kinds of things related just to failing electrical connections. This problem is really aggravated by north-east salt.

Sorry Oliver, but you're dead wrong. That's not an opinion of mine, it's just a fact. I'm telling you this as a paid technician who works in the field and can easily afford to buy your car. (Not that it's anyone's business).

You own a good car. And it should remain faithful to you for a few more years. If you buy cars for safety, styling, or whatever, and you have the money to spend on it, go for it. Nobody is telling you not to. Continue to buy them every few years if you like them, and you'll always think you have a reliable car. What you cannot do is speak for it's long term reliability, which will be directly proportionate to it's quality. Your 2005 model is not old enough yet.

It used to be when you went to the junkyard, you would come across many damaged, smashed, wrecked, or rotted out old cars that were 15-20 years old. Now when you go you are seeing more and more 8-10 year old cars that look like very serviceable. They just aren't worth it to people.

So Oliver will respond to this with 'give me proof about MB.' There's no need. Multiplexed electronics and OBD-II are becoming industry standard. The body electronics will probably always be different (read: more complicated) among various marques, but overall, this is the direction the industry is headed in, which is unfortunate.

I'm not saying that technology has not done some amazing things for cars. Some of the electronic handling and stability systems blow my mind. They are amazing machines. But personally, I'd rather drive a car than let it drive itself. Even though I've never personally seen a failure, drive by wire is just seems like a bad idea. Period. When the wire breaks, you're pretty much screwed. Electronic throttle motors can fail.. etc.

The old MB's will prove their worth in another 10 years when many of them are STILL going. I'll drive them as long as I can find them and pile miles on them every day. Perhaps 10 years from now I'll be able to figure out how to get the seats from a 2000+ model year S-class into my beat up, old, run down (but still running) welfare 1980's model Mercedes.

 

[akimball442]

Numbered for ease of response:

1. Try to run as many electronics as a modern MB has with standard wiring and let me know how it goes. Yes having everything run through a few SAMs can be hard to diagnose and a pain to repair. Having 50 miles of wiring running throughout the car would be no picnic either. Some interesting points here and thank you for your expertise on the cars wiring. I would like to counter a few points. Also, why would I go to my corner garage? If my vehicle has a malfunction that I am not able to diagnose myself, I'll simply call MB roadside assistance, have the vehicle taken to a dealer, they will repair it while I drive a loaner for a few days, and I'll get it back ready to go. I have really no qualms about paying $115 an hour to have a sophisticated vehicle's electronics repaired. I haven't found this to be a major issue yet in the 220s, and some of them are touching 10 years old.

Multiplexing only reduces the lengths of wires, in a modern car, you're still controlling many more devices. It's a shorter run from a module to a device than from a switch to a device in most cases. The only long wires will be between the modules themselves. The AMOUNT of wiring and circuits has increased, overall. More electronics= more circuits= more wires.

I think the original intent of this thread was the old vs. the new. Once cars change hands a few times, the corner garage is where the end up for diagnostics, right or wrong. I happen to disagree with this, but that's the way it is.

2. Odd. Aren't potholes and years going to have the same ravaging effects on the 126? Aren't people talking about timing chain replacements, wheel bearings, and suspension bushings in here? All cars age, and all cars deteriorate. Important to note, the average price of a clean 126 is maybe $5k. Apparently owners spend upwards of $11k per year fixing these things. Doesn't that sort of indicate that once cars are this old, its simply a matter of your attachment to a vehicle, and not the cost benefit of repairing it (because it hardly ever makes sense)? More on that later.

Of course potholes and years will deteriorate any vehicle. I suspect that the mechanical cars are going to hold up better than the electronic ones. This is purely speculation on my part.

A W126 is a car that can be rebuilt indefinitely if it is a relatively rust free and good condition car. $11,000 spent in repairs on any car is certainly out of love.. I can't phathom that. I might spend that on ALL my cars in 2 years...

I'd rather pay a few grand for the car, keep it maintained, and drive it into the ground, then buy another and do it again.

3. For a man who works in electronics, Im very disappointed and shocked by this generalized and frankly ridiculous statement. A check engine light and subsequent code can be retrieved by a $30 code scanner, which will in most cases take you right to the problem. Then some old fashion diagnosis will direct you to replace whatever parts are necessary (most often the 02 sensors and MAF, especially on the 210). In no way shape or form will this run $1500. Check engine lights are usually some of the cheapest and easiest things to repair and I'd much rather plug in my scanner than try to mess around with a CIS or whatever its called on this vintage MB.

Certainly CIS can be very difficult to diagnose and repair. I will not dispute that. I find it fun .

$30 code scanners are good at one thing. Pulling a code. Beyond that they're useless. OK, maybe you can pull a code for the O2 sensor. Chances are that the O2 sensor is defective and needs to be replaced, especially if the vehicle has some miles on it. Beyond that, it's useless. In automotive diagnostics you NEVER EVER use such a device. A DTC (Diagnostic trouble code) is a tool for diagnosis. From this point you should be following a troubleshooting tree and ensuring that the wiring and associated sensors are intact and functioning as designed. You need the correct scan tool to view things like fuel trim, sensor activity, ignition curves, etc, to correctly diagnose problems. I'm not going to tell a customer they need a $20 sensor, let alone an expensive one based on an error code.

Here in NY state a car can sit all winter long when a snowbird flies to Florida to drive their other car. In the spring time when they come home and start their car, chances are some mice have gotten in. The car will almost definitely start and run fine. It will however not pass inspection because one wire in a harness has been chewed through. Or better yet, they chewed the looms off the wiring so that the harness starts to melt or get screwed up somehow. Next thing you know, the check engine light is on, and $1500 would be a good deal to replace a harness on an otherwise seemingly healthy car that runs well.

4. I haven't really heard what exactly makes the older model better, aside from having less electronics and more wires...

Less electronics IS BETTER in terms of long term reliability, in general. The older vehicles get, the more electrical problems they have. Of course before you go there, the older they get the more mechanical problems they have. Electrical diagnostics is generally more time consuming and expensive. I'd rather change a head gasket in a 126 than pull apart an interior looking for a wire. Of course If I did have to do that in the 126 I could screw it back together. In something newer, I'd damage the one time use plastic clips.

The more you add, the more there is to break. Simple.

5. I have no interest in owning any car for more than say 8 years. I'll get bored of my 220 (or any car) far before it becomes to unreliable for me...and Im not worried.

What about the next owner? Somewhere out there is a guy drooling over a car just like yours, and he can't afford to buy it new. By the time it has depreciated so he can afford it, he's buying himself a huge headache. Somewhere this thread turned into a quality discussion. An 8 or 10 year old Mercedes is not a nice reliable vehicle to buy used.

6 and 7. Now you are getting into my career, which is finance.

I'd have thought lawyer, lol

Doing $2k worth of repairs on a car valued at $5k NEVER makes sense from a cost basis standpoint. Whether it be replacing airmatic components or doing a headgasket on a 126, people do it because they love the car not because it makes financial sense. And I can guarantee you there will always be people who love the 220/221, just as there are people who love the 126.

I agree.

That said, there will always be people who stretch to own a car, and will not have the desire or funds to properly repair something. Spending $20k to fully restore a 1985 300sel would seem absolutely asinine to the average person, and you and I both know it is not a wise financial decision. But you pays your money and you takes your chances, and we all know that not all decisions are made with the brain (as opposed to the heart).

NO car is a good investment. And Nobody needs to drive a Mercedes, and certainly I can't imagine spending $70,000 or more on a car. That to me is insane. That's too much money for a few years use of a disposable vehicle.

Personally, my cars cost me almost nothing to own, because I repair and maintain them completely myself, excluding tire mounting and alignments. That's a better deal, to me.

I just think the era of the 'Indestructible Mercedes' is long gone. I don't see people wrenching on ANY late 90s or newer Mercedes 20 or 30 years from now.

I think that when I find a mint condition 300CD to baby in the summertime, that as long as I can find an engine for it every 300,000 miles, it really will last forever.

Once you have the car, you can put engines in it for $1000 and transmissions for $600. At 200K, I see the later models headed to the junkyard.

There will be some exceptions, I'm sure, but I have a feeling my forecast is going to be basically true.

 

[akimball442]

You may be correct, but I haven't seen a whole lot of evidence to show that to be the case.

Oh come on, don't be numb. Add more to a vehicle, there's more to fail. That's just common sense.

If cars were not more complicated and prone to failure, then the automotive field would still be dominated by $15/hr flat rate mechanics educated at vocational schools. We still need those guys because tie-rods and things like that need to be changed.

You can now go to college for four years for automotive technology, and there are entire semesters concentrated to the electronics. I actually did go to school for automotive technology, and separately for electrical engineering. I have paperwork stating my knowledge in these fields, but I feel like they barely scratched the surface when it actually comes to working on vehicles in the real world these days.

They need professors retiring from their dealership jobs NOW to go teach those classes. The guys that left the dealerships 10 years ago don't know multiplexing....

This is a very up and coming field in a bad economy right now. I encourage people to get into it.

People are going to always need vehicles repaired, and the industry is going to continue to flood the streets with their overly complicated crap.

It keeps food on the table and the garage full.

 

[akimball442]

This thread is like a gigantic long-winded instant message.

 

[akimball442]

Are you referencing to multiplexing as time/frequency/asynchronous addressing???

Now that's too complicated You're getting into HOW things communicate in a network. I will fully admit that I do not have more than an elementary knowledge of that part of these systems.

I refer to multiplexing as a group of modules linked together by a common network.

In the modern automobile there can be 20 or more modules.

Example:

You press the right rear power window switch on the driver's door. The signal from it goes to the nearest module. That information is converted to data in the module, and travels along the network in the car until it gets to the correct module to interpret it. Then the data command is converted by that module to open the window.

That's how it works in cars. It's not hard to understand. It's just a complicated way of performing a simple task.

In diagnostics of these systems, it's important to know that they do communicate, not so much how. That's for the engineers that designed them.

 

[akimball442]

That's asynchronous multiplexing using some sort of ROM chip to access the specific signal combination based on the interface you activated. The input device such as a switch simply gives the unique combination to address the multiplexer that will in turn transmit the content of the ROM at a specif address. The advantage of such a system is that you can also start a stored subroutine to control whatever device needs activation over a period of time like a sunroof or window.
Presently I am wiring my W126 with a similar system for the front passenger eject system.

I learned something today. No comment on the 'eject system.'