[Ciaran70]

Hi,
My soft top will not operate up or down and need help with what to do with returned diagnostic codes to resolve operation.

Current status,
All codes cleared - Operate S84 - RB goes down - Windows go down - S84 flashes, this is happends when ST is in closed & Open positions and return codes 3 & 4 ( Cover latch locked L & R. )
I can here the Pump running. No leaking cylinders from what I can see.
I have check all input/outputs on the Y connector in both test conditions, all good.
Question is, what is the next steps to resolve the returned codes? what action/testing is required with the latch error?

One thing I have noticed, I have the hydraulic pump with a solenoid valve that pressurises the ST side of the system, I presume this valve needs to activated when the s84 button is pressed? it doesn't seem to, what condition/step in the operation does this activate? I have checked it manually and the valve does work and pressurizes the ST and tries to move parts/locks etc. but may not be in the correct sequence as its manually switched.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Ciaran.

 

[Swany]

Hi,
My soft top will not operate up or down and need help with what to do with returned diagnostic codes to resolve operation.

Current status,
All codes cleared - Operate S84 - RB goes down - Windows go down - S84 flashes, this is happends when ST is in closed & Open positions and return codes 3 & 4 ( Cover latch locked L & R. )
I can here the Pump running. No leaking cylinders from what I can see.
I have check all input/outputs on the Y connector in both test conditions, all good.
Question is, what is the next steps to resolve the returned codes? what action/testing is required with the latch error?

One thing I have noticed, I have the hydraulic pump with a solenoid valve that pressurises the ST side of the system, I presume this valve needs to activated when the s84 button is pressed? it doesn't seem to, what condition/step in the operation does this activate? I have checked it manually and the valve does work and pressurizes the ST and tries to move parts/locks etc. but may not be in the correct sequence as its manually switched.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Ciaran.

I think you've identified what the problems is, the main valve solenoid is not being energized, this is a separate hydraulic circuit from the roll bar and why the roll bar is working and the top cylinder hydraulics are not. This main valve solenoid should energize anytime you use the top switch, see page 3 in the attached pdf. I attempted to draw a schematic of the controller circuits using photos from a person that was fixing the controller. When the S84 top switch is pressed several transistors turn on and one of the transistors energizes the main valve relay(REL13) in the controller, which should activate the main valve solenoid. It does sound like this solenoid is not getting activated based on the symptoms you've described. It may be a problem with the controller circuit or the relay in the controller, the relay contacts can have problems. I think it should also be possible to check the valve solenoid if there's access to the two wires going to the solenoid.

 

[Ciaran70]

I think you've identified what the problems is, the main valve solenoid is not being energized, this is a separate hydraulic circuit from the roll bar and why the roll bar is working and the top cylinder hydraulics are not. This main valve solenoid should energize anytime you use the top switch, see page 3 in the attached pdf. I attempted to draw a schematic of the controller circuits using photos from a person that was fixing the controller. When the S84 top switch is pressed several transistors turn on and one of the transistors energizes the main valve relay(REL13) in the controller, which should activate the main valve solenoid. It does sound like this solenoid is not getting activated based on the symptoms you've described. It may be a problem with the controller circuit or the relay in the controller, the relay contacts can have problems. I think it should also be possible to check the valve solenoid if there's access to the two wires going to the solenoid.

Hi Swany

Thanks for the quick and detailed response. Nice to know I'm heading down one of the correct rabbit holes. I have read other threads 14 pages plus you are involved in about the fault finding of RST module so getting a bit of crash course in electronics, forgive my ignorance all very new.
So with available minimum time since have investigated further.

• Solenoid valve @ pump does actuate when jumped from the battery - so its just not getting the signal.
• on the table I have tried to power the RST via (+PIN Z 11) and (- X10), the idea I had was to pull to ground Y1 or Y2 and see if I could get an output signal from X10. nothing, so I am presuming there is other signal required that the RST is not getting when out of the car.

- Next , I powered 12v to (+Pin Z11) actuated the Main valve relay with a pen by hand, and received a 12v signal from X10, So relay contacts work.
- Further I powered the relay with a two wires via 9v battery on the under side of the PCB relay contacts, working fine.
So now I thinking its an issue with circuit board before the relay.

This where a need help,
I checked all the diodes on the Y connector board with a multimeter and all are good - 0.65v one way & OL the opposite. When checking the diodes on the relay board there was a voltage both directions, would I be correct in saying this could be something to do with the relay coil maybe (reading more than just the diode)?
Next checking the PNP and NPN transistors, simply cant get my head around what I should be seeing here, help on how to test with a multimeter and what returns I should be seeing.
If any of the above deemed faulty the plan was to change out.

There is one hope I have for when I test the RST back in the car tomorrow. When powering the relays manually I noticed some did not work initially but by re-powering a number of times they all kicked in. Ones that were lazy were , Rear Locks & Bow Raise. I'm hoping there may have been an issue with the main Valve relay too and I might resolved it by poking with a pen beforehand, fingers crossed.

Anyway any ideas and help on the Diode & transistor testing on the board would be appreciated. hopefully I get sorted and help other folk along the way.

 

[Swany]

From what I could tell from the photos and the circuit I've drawn on page 3, when you press the top switch (S84) and in either direction it turns on the three transistors on page 3 at the bottom of the page.
The left transistor is PNP type and when the S84 switch is pressed it provides a ground path and a voltage drop across the two resistors connected to the base of the left transistor, which provides a voltage bias that turns on the left transistor.
When the left transistor is biased on it connects 12V to the three resistors that provides a voltage bias that turns on the larger NPN transistor (ZTX651), which is the middle transistor in the drawing. I also drew dash lines from the schematic to a picture of the circuit board to show the locations of these transistors on the board.
When the NPN transistor is biased on (S84 pressed) it provides a path to ground for anything connected to the collector of this transistor.
The third transistor (right) is connected to the collector side of the middle transistor via a diode and this ground path turns on the main valve relay.
One of these three transistors could possibly be bad or some other component in the circuit. To test out things you would have simulate a ground like the S84 switch is pressed on the FX2 cable pin and probe voltage levels on the transistors pins to see what's going on.
I can help with where to probe and expected voltage levels if you want to do this. These circuit boards are repairable if that's the problem. There are not too many components between the S84 switch and the main valve valve relay so if anything is bad in this path it's repairable.

One question I have that would help narrow down a possible circuit board problem is this; when you press the top switch does the hydraulic pump start up, can you hear it running?

 

[Ciaran70]

Yes, pump runs with s48 switched in each direction.

 

[Swany]

Yes, pump runs with s48 switched in each direction.

If the pump runs when the top switch is pressed is a good thing, it means at least two of the three transistors that are part of the circuit for the main valve relay are working as they should. What's remaining in the circuit is the third transistor, the right bottom one on page 3, which is connected to the main valve relay and to the switched ground through a diode. I wasn't able to determine where the base of this transistor is connected so I don't know what's turning on the transistor but I think it's always biased on and just the ground path for the relay is enabled when the middle transistor is on, which turns on the main valve relay. I would first suspect the relay as a potential problem because of the contacts but it could be the remaining transistor or diode in the circuit.

 

[Ciaran70]

Thanks, is there a method to test the transistor on the board to see if its faulty?
. Limited time to check things today, but just in case I did quickly check if anything changed after, not surprised still the same, however I did charge the main solenoid directly to the pump of the battery to see what happens, this was with the hardtop on, all codes cleared, strange thing, all locks pulled the hard top downwards as if your refitting it, this was the same for locking and releasing the HT. Would this also indicate there maybe a directional solenoid stuck?
I'll get to fault finding the board when I've more time.

 

[Swany]

Thanks, is there a method to test the transistor on the board to see if its faulty?
. Limited time to check things today, but just in case I did quickly check if anything changed after, not surprised still the same, however I did charge the main solenoid directly to the pump of the battery to see what happens, this was with the hardtop on, all codes cleared, strange thing, all locks pulled the hard top downwards as if your refitting it, this was the same for locking and releasing the HT. Would this also indicate there maybe a directional solenoid stuck?
I'll get to fault finding the board when I've more time.

Edit, I updated the pdf to show the meter probe points for measuring the voltage on the main valve relay transistor when the top switch is in the pressed and released positions. One lead of the meter to ground and the other lead at these different probe points for the voltage level measurements.

Ideally if you can get access to the transistor with the controller plugged in you could probe the emitter voltage level of the of the main valve relay transistor when the S84 switch is pressed, see the pdf. I circled and labelled the transistor legs, B (base), C(collector) and E(emitter). If I have the circuit correct the emitter voltage will be at ~12V when the S84 top switch is NOT being pressed and when pressed the voltage level on the emitter will be ~1.4V. This would require all the controller connectors plugged and access to the side of the circuit board as shown the pdf. If the controller is out of the car and can be powered up you could ground the signal line on the FX2 connector to simulate the S84 being pressed, see the first pdf file I posted for which pin. I have to caution you about grounding pins though, if I don't have the schematic or pin locations correct then damage could be done. It would be best if all the controller connectors are plugged in and you can get access to the probe points needed while the S84 switch is pressed.

The way the transistor should function is it becomes a switch when the S84 switch is pressed, ground is enabled on the collector of the transistor and this completes the circuit for the relay coil. When ground is not on the collector the transistor is off, there's no current flow from the emitter to the collector and no current through relay coil so you'll 12V at the emitter of the transistor. If ground is enabled on the collector there will current flow through the transistor and relay coil and voltage will be dropped across the relay coil and why you should see the 12V go down to ~1.4V at the emitter.
Because the pump does run when S84 is pressed there should be a ground on the collector of this relay transistor.
I believe this transistor is always biased on and it's the collecltor ground that switches the relay coil on. You can probe the base voltage level to confirm it's at least 0.7V lower than the emitter voltage to see it's biased on.

Let me know if you can get access to the transistor probe points when the connectors plugged in.

 

[Ciaran70]

Update.
Making some promising progress.
I checked the voltage in the transistor emmitter with no button pressed - 11.7v, ~ 7.7v with button pressed. Not as much of a voltage drop as you are saying I should be seeing(1.4v)
I checked the base and it had the same readings as the emitter. So am I to say the transistor needs replacing?

Alternative progress, I jumped the main solenoid from the battery again, cleared all codes with the HT off this time. Presto, ST lifted from the compartment and locked down on the front. This took many attempts, seams to closing as it should.
When I go open the bow lifts, compartment opens, but the front latches dont release, they seam to be pulling down instead. If I manually release the front latches I need to pull back the top until it wants to drop on its own weight ( bit of hydraulic resistance) once down the compartment all closes as it should.
So I'm thinking could the system need bleading given it improvement after a couple of cycles, or the soft top down relay may need attention also?
Is there a way to Bleed the full system, I know its supposed to be self bleed, but the car is new to me and the ST may have not been operational in years.

Ps. I see on your diagram a question mark on relay 19, I believe this is connected to the open door switch to allow for the HT release. Trialed this with the pump jumped again and functions as it should, open/lock.
So all in all very happy, just a few minor hurdles and it could be 100%

 

[Swany]

Update.
Making some promising progress.
I checked the voltage in the transistor emmitter with no button pressed - 11.7v, ~ 7.7v with button pressed. Not as much of a voltage drop as you are saying I should be seeing(1.4v)
I checked the base and it had the same readings as the emitter. So am I to say the transistor needs replacing?

Alternative progress, I jumped the main solenoid from the battery again, cleared all codes with the HT off this time. Presto, ST lifted from the compartment and locked down on the front. This took many attempts, seams to closing as it should.
When I go open the bow lifts, compartment opens, but the front latches dont release, they seam to be pulling down instead. If I manually release the front latches I need to pull back the top until it wants to drop on its own weight ( bit of hydraulic resistance) once down the compartment all closes as it should.
So I'm thinking could the system need bleading given it improvement after a couple of cycles, or the soft top down relay may need attention also?
Is there a way to Bleed the full system, I know its supposed to be self bleed, but the car is new to me and the ST may have not been operational in years.

Ps. I see on your diagram a question mark on relay 19, I believe this is connected to the open door switch to allow for the HT release. Trialed this with the pump jumped again and functions as it should, open/lock.
So all in all very happy, just a few minor hurdles and it could be 100%

If the emitter and base voltages are the same I would suspect the transistor is bad and the 7.7V when top switch is pressed is too high. Did you measure the emitter and base voltages in both top switch positions, pressed and released, were the base and emitter voltages the same in both switch positions, 11.7 and 7.7?
If the transistor is bad it just a general purpose type PnP transistor, easily and cheaply available.

Edit: I wasn't able to complete the circuit for the main valve relay transistor from just looking at photos. There's one leg of the two resistors that bias the base of the transistor and I couldn't tell where it goes. Based on the voltage being the same on both the emitter and base it may be that something else controls the transistor being biased on or not. I should have asked you to also measure this point, there's a through hole eyelet on the bottom right resistor that goes to the other side of the circuit board. If you could also help trace where this line goes it would be helpful. This line needs to be low or ground so current can flow through the two resistor and bias the transistor to an on state in addition to the ground path on the collector when the top switch is pressed. The transistor may not be the problem, it may this line and what is controlling it.

 

[Limeymerc]

My roof got out of sequence when I took the hard top off and for a while I could only work the front latches manually, they were always in the wrong position, open when they should be closed and visa-versa. After doing the whole top down top up and hard top on and off it some how got back into sequence. Keep moving it though its whole cycle and using the tool to complete the cycle fully, at some point it may "wake up" and reset its sequence.

 

[Ciaran70]

Thanks, this is something that I would be hoping for, It did seem to open and lock the HT as it should, which it wasnt doing, so may be the program will reset itself as you say after a few cycles.
I've ordered some transistors so once they arrive and soldered in, I'd be hoping for a fully functioning top. I'll keep you posted. Thanks everyone for the help.

 

[Ciaran70]

Update, was all going well!
So I changed out the transistor and diode afileated to the main valve. Valve worked via s84 button (thanks swany), everything worked as it should apart from the ST would not go back down after the top locks released. I helped it down while pressing the button and each time to got to the compartment everything else cycled as it should. So I was thinking to check the ST down relay diodes and transistor, changed these out as I persumed it coukd be the same issue as main valve.
Plugged all back together and now I'm getting both lights constant on for the RB and ST switches. Nothing happens!!
I hope I'm missing something simple and haven't damaged somthing. I've attached an image of what I changed.

Get success to worse than where I started.

 

[Swany]

Update, was all going well!
So I changed out the transistor and diode afileated to the main valve. Valve worked via s84 button (thanks swany), everything worked as it should apart from the ST would not go back down after the top locks released. I helped it down while pressing the button and each time to got to the compartment everything else cycled as it should. So I was thinking to check the ST down relay diodes and transistor, changed these out as I persumed it coukd be the same issue as main valve.
Plugged all back together and now I'm getting both lights constant on for the RB and ST switches. Nothing happens!!
I hope I'm missing something simple and haven't damaged somthing. I've attached an image of what I changed.

Get success to worse than where I started. View attachment 2814831

Just to clarify, you replaced the two components circled in blue? The transistor in this position is a NpN type transistor (BCW33), did you replace with the same type? If this is the transistor you replaced I don't know exactly what it controls, I wasn't able to trace all the lines for this transistor but one leg of the transistor is connected to a 5V regulator device and it's the reset line so if the transistor type is incorrect it could be affect the 5V supply and this will cause many things to malfunction.
If you did happened to replace the NpN with a PnP type you'll have to correct and hopefully no other components were damaged.

 

[Ciaran70]

Yes, it was replaced with a pnp, is ill change it out to a npn. Happy there's a logical reason, thanks.

 

[Swany]

Yes, it was replaced with a pnp, is ill change it out to a npn. Happy there's a logical reason, thanks.

This should get you back to the same place were the top functions but stops after the front latches release when opening the top. How well does the top function when closing the top from the fully open position?

I've attached a way to check all the limit switches when the top stops at a certain point. A lot of times it's due to an illogical limit switch condition, one switch may not be in the expected open/closed state. You can check for codes or check the limit switches as shown in the attached file.

 

[Ciaran70]

Thanks,
Top functions 100% from open position.
Window & roll bar go down, compartment opens, hood lifts and locks at front latches, compartment closes, bow goes down and locks, window and roll bar go back up.
I'm correct in saying there's a relay for top hood down? I may have corrected this but as per the npn mistake I couldn't test. One on order, keep you posted on outcome. Thanks again

 

[Swany]

Thanks,
Top functions 100% from open position.
Window & roll bar go down, compartment opens, hood lifts and locks at front latches, compartment closes, bow goes down and locks, window and roll bar go back up.
I'm correct in saying there's a relay for top hood down? I may have corrected this but as per the npn mistake I couldn't test. One on order, keep you posted on outcome. Thanks again

There is a relay for soft top open (X3, REL17) and it's in the area where you replaced the transistor, it controls the hydraulic solenoid Y55/6 soft top open valve, which applies hydraulic pressure to the rod side of the main cylinders to open the soft top. I don't know if the transistor you replaced controls this relay, but it could so replacing it with the correct NpN type may solve the problem if the original problem was with this transistor.
To help confirm if this relay or something in the relay circuit may have a problem you will also notice when you close the top it may come down hard in the front as the top comes down towards the windshield. When closing the top you mentioned it closes okay and the front locks latch but as the top is closing the main cylinders go into a differential mode as the soft top closes and this is a mode where both sides of the main cylinders pistons are pressurized and it helps take the weight of the top as it 's closing down towards the front latches. If the soft top open relay or something in the circuit or the hydraulic solenoid isn't working correctly there won't be pressure on both sides of the main cylinder pistons and the top will come down hard as it approaches the windshield. Does this happen? This would be in addition to the soft top not opening after the front latches are open.

 

[Ciaran70]

Update on progress,
I have now fitted the correct NpN transistor and all back to where I was.
Top closing from the compartment and locking.
I can confirm the hood does come down hard, so I took a look at the solinoid and it is not pulling in when it should, however I did manually switch it with a screwdriver when it should and all works perfectly, unlocks, opens and runs through all the cycles. Also upon closing it does slow the hood down before locking.
So the valve works.
Solinoid works, checked via 5v battery.
So the solinoid is not getting the signal.
I have relaplace three diodes (marked on attached photo) that would not work in any direction via a multimeter. But I stupidly removed without checking there direction, best guess to match the image but not 100%. Would you know which direction they should be in? so I can rule out. The only other thing I can think of is maybe the transistor beside the NpN could be involved on the relay circuit, would this be NpN or PnP?
So close!!

 

[Swany]

Update on progress,
I have now fitted the correct NpN transistor and all back to where I was.
Top closing from the compartment and locking.
I can confirm the hood does come down hard, so I took a look at the solinoid and it is not pulling in when it should, however I did manually switch it with a screwdriver when it should and all works perfectly, unlocks, opens and runs through all the cycles. Also upon closing it does slow the hood down before locking.
So the valve works.
Solinoid works, checked via 5v battery.
So the solinoid is not getting the signal.
I have relaplace three diodes (marked on attached photo) that would not work in any direction via a multimeter. But I stupidly removed without checking there direction, best guess to match the image but not 100%. Would you know which direction they should be in? so I can rule out. The only other thing I can think of is maybe the transistor beside the NpN could be involved on the relay circuit, would this be NpN or PnP?
So close!! View attachment 2815796

Of the three diodes circled and from the photos I have the left diode circled has the cathode (black strip) is up, the right, lower diode has the cathode/black strip up and the right upper diode has the cathode on the bottom.
This transistor with the arrow pointing to it controls the hydraulic pump relay so it's working fine.

To help troubleshoot the soft top open problem I need to know where one leg of the relay coil goes to, it the larger solder joint next (right of diode) the lower left diode circled and is connected to the anode of the circled diode. There should be a trace on the other side of the circuit board also connected to the same point and it should go to a transistor, which controls the current through the coil and when the relay turns on and off. The trace on the other side will be hidden by the relay but if you measure (resistance to trace connection) from this point on the circuit side shown the relay coil should be connected to one the transistor legs near by, first check the NpN you replaced and others if needed. Need to first find the transistor that controls the relay and then from this same transistor follow the controls signal going to the base of the transistor, which I think come from one pin in the board to board ribbon connector.

When you were operating the top could you tell if the soft top relay was clicking when it should have turned on? Wondering if it's control signal problem to the relay or the relay itself.