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May be the issue is that there is not enough hydraulic pressure?
This may be a possibility. To discern if this is the case move the bow by hand while the roof switch is pressed and feel if there is hydraulic pressure trying to raise the bow.

Reading fault codes may also provide a clue. If the problem is the REL15 relay that Swany mentioned, then I'd expect a fault for the bow not being raised.
 

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I soldered ZTX751 PNP in T3 and there is good progress. From position when soft top is up and locked windows up, roll bar raised, now when S84 is pressed both windows lowers, roll bar lowers, sound of relays and valves and locks is organized, both rear locks unlatch and bow pops out but does not rise, I can hear clicking from soft top compartment locks and see that ST compartment cover moves just a little bit up and down, but it does not open. I can also see that ST next to front locks moves up and down very, very little, couple of millimeters, but does not unlock. Now module does not freeze at it is even possible with S84 to lock back rear locks, rise back roll bar and windows. I can do these small steps back and forth without any issues. Thank you both very much I could not do it with out your help! To me it seams that the circuits we were trying to fix now works good and all these transistors on back of relay PCB works correct.

I think the issue is that “inside” N52 has conflicting microswitch input, what we diagnosed earlier (still waiting for the OKI chips to arrive).

I have leaking both ST main cylinders and left ST compartment lock cylinder. Rear lock cylinders seams to be fine, since they did their job several time and no leaks. I don’t know about front lock cylinders, since they have not unlocked not even once. May be the issue is that there is not enough hydraulic pressure? I will refer to startek manual for check of the hydraulic system, but perhaps you already have some ideas?

I remember that you Swany asked what kind of hydraulic pump is on my car, here is the picture.
View attachment 2612298
From the pump picture it looks like it has the main valve.

Have you tried opening the soft top manually and making sure the rear locks are unlocked and opened correctly then trying closing the top using the main switch? Just curious how far it will get with the closing sequence.
 

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Discussion Starter #143
From the pump picture it looks like it has the main valve.

Have you tried opening the soft top manually and making sure the rear locks are unlocked and opened correctly then trying closing the top using the main switch? Just curious how far it will get with the closing sequence.
Yes I did. Opened ST manually, lowered in ST compartment, ST compartment locked, rear and front locks unlocked. Then pressed S84 switch, ST compartment cover moved up and down very little, but did not open, that is it, nothing further. I did not put N52 in diagnostic mode, but most likely will be the same errors as before, but to make it absolutely sure I will put N52 in diagnostic mode.
 

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I took all the measurements for all three transistors, some results are strange. Here are the results. I have added picture with marking of the transistors and other measurement spots.
View attachment 2612121

All these measurements were taken when N52 was powered up, but no switch was pressed:
T1: base 0.03V, collector 1.2V, emitter 0V;
T2: base 0.04V, collector 11.9V, emitter 0.001V;
T3: base 8.9V, collector 8.2V, emitter 11.2V;
M1: 0V;
M2: 11V;

N52 powered down: There is continuity from T2 emitter to ground.

After visual check the T3 emitter is connected to the wide trace.

To me T3 readings are strange, I would not expect that all transistor legs are high voltage. If S84 switch is pressed voltage on all three T3 legs drops about 0.5V.
Sorry to interrupt if I am allowed :) I have 2 pieces R129 820 00 97 on my workshop bench. According to friends, both defective with rooftop not working. I bounced into this forum a few days ago while googling for information and find this forum very interesting. Been following your discussions and making notes along so as to collect as much infos as possible because this is my first attempt to work around on this controller.
Voltage on the Emitter of T3 (PNP) is derived via diode from pin X12. Collector voltage is supposed to be stabilized
by the output of TA7900S (Pin2 / IC12) which then supplies the chips IC01, IC02, IC03, IC011, IC012 and some other
transistors. M1 is ground, whereas M2 lies on the same rail as Emitter of T3.
I took all the measurements for all three transistors, some results are strange. Here are the results. I have added picture with marking of the transistors and other measurement spots.
View attachment 2612121

All these measurements were taken when N52 was powered up, but no switch was pressed:
T1: base 0.03V, collector 1.2V, emitter 0V;
T2: base 0.04V, collector 11.9V, emitter 0.001V;
T3: base 8.9V, collector 8.2V, emitter 11.2V;
M1: 0V;
M2: 11V;

N52 powered down: There is continuity from T2 emitter to ground.

After visual check the T3 emitter is connected to the wide trace.

To me T3 readings are strange, I would not expect that all transistor legs are high voltage. If S84 switch is pressed voltage on all three T3 legs drops about 0.5V.
I took all the measurements for all three transistors, some results are strange. Here are the results. I have added picture with marking of the transistors and other measurement spots.
View attachment 2612121

All these measurements were taken when N52 was powered up, but no switch was pressed:
T1: base 0.03V, collector 1.2V, emitter 0V;
T2: base 0.04V, collector 11.9V, emitter 0.001V;
T3: base 8.9V, collector 8.2V, emitter 11.2V;
M1: 0V;
M2: 11V;

N52 powered down: There is continuity from T2 emitter to ground.

After visual check the T3 emitter is connected to the wide trace.

To me T3 readings are strange, I would not expect that all transistor legs are high voltage. If S84 switch is pressed voltage on all three T3 legs drops about 0.5V.
Sorry to interrupt if I am allowed :) I have 2 pieces R129 820 00 97 on my workshop bench. According to friends, both defective with rooftop not working. I bounced into this forum a few days ago while googling for information and find this forum very interesting. Been following your discussions and making notes along so as to collect as much infos as possible because this is my first attempt to work around on this controller.
Based on MBRyan's post, Voltage on the Emitter of T3 (PNP) is derived via diode from pin X12. Collector voltage is supposed to be stabilized by the output of TA7900S (Pin2 / IC12) which then supplies the chips IC01, IC02, IC03, IC011, IC012 and some other transistors. M1 is ground, whereas M2 lies on the same rail as Emitter of T3.
I hooked up a controller and compared the voltages measured by Ryan. Voltages on T1 and T2 are almost similar to my measurement. For T3: base 11V, collector 5.6V, emitter 11.6V .
In my case, 12.4V is fed to X12 minus a voltage drop of 0.7V supplying emitter T3 is quite reasonable. But can someone explain why the base has 11V despite being stabilized by the TA7900 ? Is the voltage regulation of TA7900 defective? Also can someone confirm that D11 isn't a diode?
Thank you
 

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Yes I did. Opened ST manually, lowered in ST compartment, ST compartment locked, rear and front locks unlocked. Then pressed S84 switch, ST compartment cover moved up and down very little, but did not open, that is it, nothing further. I did not put N52 in diagnostic mode, but most likely will be the same errors as before, but to make it absolutely sure I will put N52 in diagnostic mode.
Is there a way to safely measure voltages on the Y connector inputs with module plugged in and powered up? Can you probe the input points on the resistors leg in the photo? For each of the input switches there will be a <1V or 12V voltage level on the switch inputs with the module powered up. On one side the pullup resistor there should be 12V and the other side the switch input will be either closed (grounded) and < 1V or open high resistance and 12V. It would be interesting to see the pullup voltage common to all the pullup resistors and the voltage level switch status on the other end of the resistor.






2612316
 

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Discussion Starter #147
Is there a way to safely measure voltages on the Y connector inputs with module plugged in and powered up? Can you probe the input points on the resistors leg in the photo? For each of the input switches there will be a <1V or 12V voltage level on the switch inputs with the module powered up. On one side the pullup resistor there should be 12V and the other side the switch input will be either closed (grounded) and < 1V or open high resistance and 12V. It would be interesting to see the pullup voltage common to all the pullup resistors and the voltage level switch status on the other end of the resistor.






View attachment 2612316
I think yes, there is safe way to measure voltage on these points, it should be easier then to measure anything on the back of the relay PCB, because then module has to completely open and turned upside down compared how it normally should be. For these measurements it looks like that just the N52 cover should be open. Do I understand correctly that you wanted me to measure voltage only for the two rows marked with arrow in the picture and also the same in the other picture you attached? I think it will be best to measure voltage for the row marked with red arrow when ST is up and when ST is down. Is there any other measurement you are interested?
Y connector input 1 of 2 with labels.jpg
 

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I think yes, there is safe way to measure voltage on these points, it should be easier then to measure anything on the back of the relay PCB, because then module has to completely open and turned upside down compared how it normally should be. For these measurements it looks like that just the N52 cover should be open. Do I understand correctly that you wanted me to measure voltage only for the two rows marked with arrow in the picture and also the same in the other picture you attached? I think it will be best to measure voltage for the row marked with red arrow when ST is up and when ST is down. Is there any other measurement you are interested?
View attachment 2612338
Yes, measure the red arrow row underneath the labels which is every other column of pins for most of the connector, it's one end of the resistor from each switch input. Pay special attention to the left and right bow locks "closed" and "locked' since when the top is opened and pause and measure voltages when the cover doesn't open and also with the top closed and pause and measure when the bow doesn't raise. Check all the labeled points for the all the switches and the 12V points in many places to see that that voltage level looks okay. You should see < 1V or ~12V for each of the switches so record the results and we can compare against what's expected. Looking at the voltages will better confirm what the module is actually seeing from the switches because the system is pressurized and we'll see the actual voltages.

Another measurement you might make is in the top left corner and the output of the 5V regulator. There are three legs and from the backside as shown in the photo I believe the right most leg is the output. The reason to check this level is it looks discolored around this device from a lot of heat and maybe this is typical but it's worth a quick measure.

Because the bow is not raising when trying to open the top and the cover doesn't open when trying to close the top I'm thinking it might be a rear lock "closed" (or possibly "locked) switch level problem and as Bob mentioned there should be some codes in both cases. The other reason I'm thinking rear locks is it thinks the hard top is on when the soft top is open. It could also be a problem with some other switch so good to look at them all.

2612391


2612392
 

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Discussion Starter #149
I took the measurements from post No 146, I was already back from workshop when read your post No 148. I can take the rest of the measurements and some more during the weekend. Results are somewhat different then you expected, all are detailed in the pictures, please note the legend in bottom of the picture. All measurements were taken twice, when ST is up and when ST is down. Labels are around the pins, measurements of course were taken exactly on the pin.

After taking measurements I put N52 in diagnostic mode to read errors:
1. soft top down, in compartment, front and rear locks unlocked, roll bar lowered, had following errors 2,3,4,5,7,12,20
2. soft top up and locked, roll bar lowered, had no errors, just one flash.

Y connector input 1 of 2 with labels and results.jpg Y connector input 2 of 2 with labels and results.jpg
 

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I took the measurements from post No 146, I was already back from workshop when read your post No 148. I can take the rest of the measurements and some more during the weekend. Results are somewhat different then you expected, all are detailed in the pictures, please note the legend in bottom of the picture. All measurements were taken twice, when ST is up and when ST is down. Labels are around the pins, measurements of course were taken exactly on the pin.

After taking measurements I put N52 in diagnostic mode to read errors:
1. soft top down, in compartment, front and rear locks unlocked, roll bar lowered, had following errors 2,3,4,5,7,12,20
2. soft top up and locked, roll bar lowered, had no errors, just one flash.

View attachment 2612411 View attachment 2612412
On first look it looks like a problem with the pullup voltage but need to review if I have the input circuit correct and would like to get Bob's input. It's interesting the left bow closed switch voltage looks like the expected voltage and there's no code 6 which is left bow locked. Thanks for taking these measurements I just need to review if there's any reason this 1.45V makes sense or if it is just a bad voltage level.
 

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On first look it looks like a problem with the pullup voltage but need to review if I have the input circuit correct and would like to get Bob's input.
I'm happy to help. But since I haven't been following all the details of recent posts can you save me some effort and briefly explain what appears to be wrong and what the basis for the opinion is? Then I can get right back to you.
 

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Discussion Starter #152
I'm happy to help. But since I haven't been following all the details of recent posts can you save me some effort and briefly explain what appears to be wrong and what the basis for the opinion is? Then I can get right back to you.
Sure Bob, here is the summary:
I soldered ZTX751 PNP in T3 and ZTX651 NPN in T1 and T2 and there is good progress. From position when soft top is up and locked windows up, roll bar raised, now when S84 is pressed both windows lowers, roll bar lowers, sound of relays and valves and locks is organized, both rear locks unlatch and bow pops out but does not rise, I can hear clicking from soft top compartment locks and see that ST compartment cover moves just a little bit up and down, but it does not open. I can also see that ST next to front locks moves up and down very, very little, couple of millimeters, but does not unlock. Now module does not freeze and it is even possible with S84 to lock back rear locks, rise back roll bar and windows. I can do these small steps back and forth without any issues. To me it seams that the circuits we were trying to fix now works good and all three big transistors on back of relay PCB works correct. I think the issue is that “inside” N52 has conflicting microswitch input, what we diagnosed earlier. Microswitch positions (open/close) are correct on Y connector pins, however when N52 is put in diagnostic mode, this is what diagnostic reads:
1. soft top down, in compartment, front and rear locks unlocked, roll bar lowered, had following errors 2,3,4,5,7,12,20
2. soft top up and locked, roll bar lowered, had no errors, just one flash.

Swany wanted to measure voltages on the Y connector inputs with module plugged in and powered up to check what is going on inside N52. I took all the measurements which are posted in pictures of post No 149. The results are not what we expected. This is it, now you are up to speed.
 

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I took all the measurements which are posted in pictures of post No 149. The results are not what we expected.
What's the difference between the values and red and the values in yellow?
 

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Discussion Starter #154
What's the difference between the values and red and the values in yellow?
Values in yellow are when ST is lowered and in compartment, front and rear locks unlocked, roll bar lowered.
Values in red are when ST is raised and locked, roll bar lowered.
 

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The input for the right-bow locked switch (Y19) isn't 12 volts as expected when the top is open. I think weeks ago you checked that the switches were all working, but still, I would remove the Y connector and measure the voltage on the Y19 input at the controller. If it still is 0 volts, then there is a problem with the limit switch or its wiring; if you still haven't got 12 volts, then the problem lies with the controller.
 

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Discussion Starter #156
The input for the right-bow locked switch (Y19) isn't 12 volts as expected when the top is open. I think weeks ago you checked that the switches were all working, but still, I would remove the Y connector and measure the voltage on the Y19 input at the controller. If it still is 0 volts, then there is a problem with the limit switch or its wiring; if you still haven't got 12 volts, then the problem lies with the controller.
One of our major concern is that the measurements showed only 1.45V on the resistors leg where we expected to be 12V. Does that seams ok to you or there is the voltage problem?
 

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One of our major concern is that the measurements showed only 1.45V on the resistors leg where we expected to be 12V. Does that seams ok to you or there is the voltage problem?
I just looked at the result of all the switches and in addition to the low (1.45V) pullup voltage level when switches are open I see a problem with the right bow locked switch as Bob mentioned and also the soft top open switch. Right bow locked should be 12V when top is open instead of the 0V measured. The soft top open switch should be 12v when the top is closed not the 0V measured when top is up.

As Bob suggested unplug the Y connector and measure the switch pins at the controller but I would expect all the switch voltage levels to be at 12V pullup voltage level when the connector is unplugged. I may have the input circuit wrong so I'll review it again.
 

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Ryan, I have a few suggestions for you when you get back to your workshop. Pull the Y connector off as Bob mentioned and measure the voltage levels (module powered up) on the module side Y19 right bow lock pin with the softop opened and then raise and close the soft top and measure Y27 "soft top open" pin. Also measure some of the other limit switch pins to check the voltage level. record voltages measured

Because these two pins are at 0V when the switch status should be open and near 12V I'm wondering if the diode may be shorted to ground so also make these resistant measurements with the module powered down and Y connector unplugged.
First, with the module powered down and the Y connector unplugged measure from the resistor end where I had put the switch ID labels and measure resistance between this point and ground (see photo). This is to check to see if the diode or capacitor may be shorted to ground. Do this for Y19 and Y27 and record results, also do this same measurement for a few other switch pins for reference. This measurement should be high resistance/open. I'm assuming the switches are okay and there may be a short to ground for these two pins. The incorrect right bow lock voltage would be the reason the bow won't raise after the rear locks unlock when trying to open the ST. When the top is open/down the incorrect soft top open switch voltage may be why the cover is not opening when trying to close the ST.
2612472



For the lower than expected pullup voltage you measured (1.45V) can you measure the legs of the ZTX751 transistor with module powered up measure with the Y connector plugged in and then unplugged. From what I can tell it looks like the collector of the this transistor supplies the pullup voltage for the switch input lines. You can get the legs of the transistor on the backside (see photo) and the collector output is on the 12V labels resistor end.

2612473


Measure transistor legs back side of board.
2612475



Also, I have a question about one measurement and when the soft top was open. You measured 0V when the ST was opened; I would expect it to 12V (or 1.45V) with the ST compartment cover closed. Was the soft top compartment cover open when the soft top was down and you took this measurement?


2612476
 

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Discussion Starter #159 (Edited)
Thank you very much Swany, I will do all these tests and measurements you and Bob suggested during the weekend once I will get back to workshop. As for your last question soft top compartment cover was closed and locked when the soft top was down and when I took these measurements.
 

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Thank you very much Swany, I will do all these tests and measurements you and Bob suggested during the weekend once I will get back to workshop. As for your last question soft top compartment cover was closed and locked when the soft top was down and when I took these measurements.
When the soft top compartment cover is closed the switch should be open and you should measure 12V (or 1.45V because of the low pullup voltage) but not 0V. Not sure why this measured 0V when the ST was open, may want to recheck this voltage measurement to confirm what's the voltage when the ST is open and cover is closed. The switch looks correct when ST is up/closed.

One other resistance measurement I liked you to take is when the RST module is powered down measure between any of the resistor ends with 12V label and ground. Take this measurement when the Y connector is plugged in and also when it's unplugged. The 12V label point is the common 12V pullup voltage on all the switch input line resistors.

There's one switch line Y23 Left Bow closed switch input line that gets its pullup voltage from the chips side of the board and you measured ~11V so for this one signal line it looks like there separate 12V pullup voltage source, something different then what's coming from the ZTX751 transistor. This helps confirm that all the other switch signals lines have a low pullup voltage (1.45V). Need to figure out what's causing this; either something is pulling it down or the voltage source is low to start with. Measuring the 751 transistor may give a clue.

2612491
 
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