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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i filled a half tank full of 87 octane today on me '06 e350 by mistake!!!
will anything happen to my engine long-term?
 

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ravioliiiii said:
i filled a half tank full of 87 octane today on me '06 e350 by mistake!!!
will anything happen to my engine long-term?

Are you kidding me? Relax people do it all the time and not by accident. You may see a decrease in power; key work is may. As far as long term effect, my educated guess is none; AND unless you plan on putting your e350 in a museum chill out.

You are going to see people buring corn in their cars soon, MB oweners are not. Just because we drive nice cars dosnt mean I want the fat cats of the oil biz to make record numbers this year....
 

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endodoc said:
Are you kidding me? Relax people do it all the time and not by accident. You may see a decrease in power; key work is may. As far as long term effect, my educated guess is none...QUOTE]

Good answer, and I agree. Won't do any damage, though I do recommend not hot-footing it from stop-light to stop-light. Not that Mercedes owners would ever drive like that...
 

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xabo258 said:
When you get down to a half of tank, refill with premium and you'll be fine.
My advice is to run it down, adding at half will be like adding skim milk to whole milk, u may see a little difference, but it will still taste like sh.. Wait till you are down and light comes on. It is not like were talkinf NASA rocket science, its gas and in some countries people are running natural gas. So as I stated prior, I would not lose sleep over this.
 

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Whats gasoline? Isn't that the stuff that Model T's were designed to run on? :D

By the way, Oil companies profits are NOT out of line with other industries. What is out of line is volume of oil that the American market consumes. Simply put, by virtue of volume we drive up the scale of the oil companies profits, don't like it? then stop buying gas guzzling vehicles.

I get tired of IGNORANT people crying about oil companies profits when its the CONSUMER who is driving up the profits by driving 15mpg vehicles. Hell my 747 gets 80-90+ mpg per seat, this is why I shrug my shoulders when I see a car driving around getting 30mpg with a single occupant crying about gas prices. Gonna bitch? drive a diesel or take public transportation otherwise take it in the ass for your poor choices in transportation methods.

Sorry, I will step off my soapbox now...

DB
 

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drivbiwire said:
Whats gasoline? Isn't that the stuff that Model T's were designed to run on? :D

By the way, Oil companies profits are NOT out of line with other industries. What is out of line is volume of oil that the American market consumes. Simply put, by virtue of volume we drive up the scale of the oil companies profits, don't like it? then stop buying gas guzzling vehicles.

I get tired of IGNORANT people crying about oil companies profits when its the CONSUMER who is driving up the profits by driving 15mpg vehicles. Hell my 747 gets 80-90+ mpg per seat, this is why I shrug my shoulders when I see a car driving around getting 30mpg with a single occupant crying about gas prices. Gonna bitch? drive a diesel or take public transportation otherwise take it in the ass for your poor choices in transportation methods.

Sorry, I will step off my soapbox now...

DB
If the US had a good; not even great Transportation Infrastructure we would use it. Living near NYC I see one of the best systems, and people use it.
I am very "up" modern economics as I also hold an MBA from Harvard Univeristy; one of the best MBA schools in the world. That being said, oil profits and the fat cats who make this amount of money should be held to their stock holders. The money should go into R&D more now then ever.

As far as your your 747 case, 80-90 mpg/per seat, thats if you can fill the seats. As a pilot myself I read AOPA..... get my point here. Pilots are the first to bitch when the airlines or org they fly for cut jobs due to gas. So maybe next time I will see you on tv with sign in the line bitching you don't have a job because (ex. United) cut x number of jobs due to rising fuel costs... So when that happens tell them to buy a more fuel efficient 747-400...

Sorry if I come across as an ass, but I would say I am on target with my case here.
 

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Fuel prices. HA! I can't speak for other airlines but mine passes ALL the fuel costs on to the customer in the form of fuel surcharges, when the price of fuel goes up you pay the difference not us! I work for a business that understands economics and we make money, unlike other air carriers, we also enjoy profit sharing again unlike other carriers! When the economy tanked my airline suffered NO LOSS OF JOBS again unlike other carriers, heck we even continued to get our normal pay raises.

I can say this, we welcome higher fuel prices simply because we can afford to invest in more efficient aircraft where the competition cannot. Replacing older aircraft with newer ones like the 777-200LRF, 747-8F equate to savings in fuel that alone make our aircraft payments verses older less efficient aircraft.

I fly out of Europe and Asia enough to see fuel prices for cars in the $6.30 range YET the economy there is still growing? How can that be, simple 60+% of the cars are diesel the other percentage get 40-50+mpg! I was driving on the Autobahn the other day and people are still cruising along at 170 clicks...Nope the fuel prices have not hurt the fun factor, then again most name plates have CDI and TDI somewhere on the tail end of the car.

Here is the problem with what you learned when you got your MBA, the guy who is performing and earning a significant return for your investment DESERVES what he makes! You see you are the guy that would cut a salesmans salary and commision because he makes more than you as the owner of the business, where I would maintain his pay margins to insure he gets what he has earned by virtue of performance. I would want my sales people or in the case of the oil companies to make as much stinking money as they can because this means I am getting the best return on my investment as an owner. You would cut their pay and then have the nerve to complain that sales and profits are down or worse you lose your golden performing goose to another company that understands EMPLOYEE VALUE better than you do. If the CEO is a billionaire at any corporation so be it as long as he is performing for the owners which in this case are the share holders.

With all that said, the problem is NOT the oil companies but in fact the American consumer who is buying so much damn oil! If it weren't for the fact that we buy so much oil the 10-14% profit margins would not add up to such extreme numbers. Presidnet Bush is correct, Americans are addicted to petroleum. IF we cut our dependence on oil then the profits will come down, the sad part is that supply and demand dictate the price of oil not the oil companies. I have no doubt that we will soon see $100.00 a pop for oil sometime after years end...

What we need in the US is higher fuel taxes to bring our fuel in line with the rest of the world, the taxes would be adjusted to create a stable price per gallon in effect a variable tax rate. The American consumer has gotten so used to cheap petroleum that they have lost the ability to change and adapt to a changing world market. Exxon-Mobil, Shell or any oil company for that matter does not determine the price of crude its the Chinese, India and other world economic powers that are driving up the price because they can AFFORD to pay the price for energy. They can stomach the costs of oil because they have always known the current price of energy at or near current levels because of the emergence time frames of their economic growth, where we have not. Americans still think that oil is going to return to $29.00 for oil, newsflash never again folks.

Again we need a tax system that sets the price of fuel and gasoline at $6.50 a gallon. The transportation industry (trucking, shipping, rail and Aviation) will continue at the unadjusted rate and follow the crude prices as they fluctuate. Non transportation consumers will pay the inflated price thus forcing change in the choices they make for transporation needs. If they can afford a 6 mpg Hummer GREAT, just don't bitch when you can't afford to fill it up. Again Europe has been paying these prices for some time now and they are offically a larger economy than the US with a fraction of the energy demand primarily driven by greater overall transmportation efficiencies.

DB
 

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Check your facts

drivbiwire said:
Fuel prices. HA! I can't speak for other airlines but mine passes ALL the fuel costs on to the customer in the form of fuel surcharges, when the price of fuel goes up you pay the difference not us! I work for a business that understands economics and we make money, unlike other air carriers, we also enjoy profit sharing again unlike other carriers! When the economy tanked my airline suffered NO LOSS OF JOBS again unlike other carriers, heck we even continued to get our normal pay raises.

I can say this, we welcome higher fuel prices simply because we can afford to invest in more efficient aircraft where the competition cannot. Replacing older aircraft with newer ones like the 777-200LRF, 747-8F equate to savings in fuel that alone make our aircraft payments verses older less efficient aircraft.

I fly out of Europe and Asia enough to see fuel prices for cars in the $6.30 range YET the economy there is still growing? How can that be, simple 60+% of the cars are diesel the other percentage get 40-50+mpg! I was driving on the Autobahn the other day and people are still cruising along at 170 clicks...Nope the fuel prices have not hurt the fun factor, then again most name plates have CDI and TDI somewhere on the tail end of the car.

Here is the problem with what you learned when you got your MBA, the guy who is performing and earning a significant return for your investment DESERVES what he makes! You see you are the guy that would cut a salesmans salary and commision because he makes more than you as the owner of the business, where I would maintain his pay margins to insure he gets what he has earned by virtue of performance. I would want my sales people or in the case of the oil companies to make as much stinking money as they can because this means I am getting the best return on my investment as an owner. You would cut their pay and then have the nerve to complain that sales and profits are down or worse you lose your golden performing goose to another company that understands EMPLOYEE VALUE better than you do. If the CEO is a billionaire at any corporation so be it as long as he is performing for the owners which in this case are the share holders.

With all that said, the problem is NOT the oil companies but in fact the American consumer who is buying so much damn oil! If it weren't for the fact that we buy so much oil the 10-14% profit margins would not add up to such extreme numbers. Presidnet Bush is correct, Americans are addicted to petroleum. IF we cut our dependence on oil then the profits will come down, the sad part is that supply and demand dictate the price of oil not the oil companies. I have no doubt that we will soon see $100.00 a pop for oil sometime after years end...

What we need in the US is higher fuel taxes to bring our fuel in line with the rest of the world, the taxes would be adjusted to create a stable price per gallon in effect a variable tax rate. The American consumer has gotten so used to cheap petroleum that they have lost the ability to change and adapt to a changing world market. Exxon-Mobil, Shell or any oil company for that matter does not determine the price of crude its the Chinese, India and other world economic powers that are driving up the price because they can AFFORD to pay the price for energy. They can stomach the costs of oil because they have always known the current price of energy at or near current levels because of the emergence time frames of their economic growth, where we have not. Americans still think that oil is going to return to $29.00 for oil, newsflash never again folks.

Again we need a tax system that sets the price of fuel and gasoline at $6.50 a gallon. The transportation industry (trucking, shipping, rail and Aviation) will continue at the unadjusted rate and follow the crude prices as they fluctuate. Non transportation consumers will pay the inflated price thus forcing change in the choices they make for transporation needs. If they can afford a 6 mpg Hummer GREAT, just don't bitch when you can't afford to fill it up. Again Europe has been paying these prices for some time now and they are offically a larger economy than the US with a fraction of the energy demand primarily driven by greater overall transmportation efficiencies.

DB
endodoc said:
If the US had a good; not even great Transportation Infrastructure we would use it. Living near NYC I see one of the best systems, and people use it.
I am very "up" modern economics as I also hold an MBA from Harvard Univeristy; one of the best MBA schools in the world. That being said, oil profits and the fat cats who make this amount of money should be held to their stock holders. The money should go into R&D more now then ever.

As far as your your 747 case, 80-90 mpg/per seat, thats if you can fill the seats. As a pilot myself I read AOPA..... get my point here. Pilots are the first to bitch when the airlines or org they fly for cut jobs due to gas. So maybe next time I will see you on tv with sign in the line bitching you don't have a job because (ex. United) cut x number of jobs due to rising fuel costs... So when that happens tell them to buy a more fuel efficient 747-400...

Sorry if I come across as an ass, but I would say I am on target with my case here.
Endodoc

Well said, well put! I have a very good friend who manages my financial affairs, (Stanford MBA) and is very "in tune" with fuel futures, oil company profits and lastly, individual franchise profits. They are all up, way up. Any moron can put that equation together by clicking on Schwab's website and doing some simple research on the oil companies such as historic profits, gross/net profit margins....

I also agree with the transportaton infrastructure comment. Out here, California has little to support the masses that commute. It is ultimately going to happen, as gas prices make the daily commute to costly, even if you get 30MPG.

drivbiwire .. your tax plan has but one fatal flaw ... masses (millions)of people wouldn't be able to afford the fuel to commute, and our transportation infrastructure won't support the overflow. Those folks that machine the blisks for your engines won't show up for work and guess what ... you won't have an airplane to fly. Your thoughts and proposals are not rational.

You are also right about the airline pilots bitching concerning pay cuts. Their salaries are half what they used to be. I have a couple of old friends that joined the airlines out of military service and saw their salaries cut well in half. The beauty of being a corporate pilot for as many years as I have was better pay, much better hours and last, pay increases. As far as a 747 getting 80-90 MPG per passenger, a bit over optimistic. According to Boeings numbers the 747-400 doesn't come close to that. I hope drivbiwire recalibrates his fuel consumption soon or we might be seeing a 747 shooting a landing on Interstate 5! God forbid the pilots would have to actually land the airplane! Maybe they need to get flight engineers back on the flight deck.

People are going to buy 15MPG vehicles just like the airlines are going to use Falcon900's to shuttle their execs around. It's called "if you can afford it, go ahead and do it". Fuel consumption in this county is high, granted. Oll profits are at all time highs. Franchise fuel vendors are making more today than ever. For that matter, one could even argue that airline pilots are overpaid. Now, with modern avionics the aircraft can take off, climb, follow wayponts, enter approach and land by themselves. If the Lear I fly can do it, I know that 747 can.


In the end, I do see more public transportation. I also see another explosive Enron scenario blooming for the oil companies. Who knows?, maybe a year from now Chevrons website will look something like http://www.enron.com/corp/

Hats off to you Endodoc, your facts are well grounded.

PS: 2005 DOT Statistics


Fuel Consumption Comparisons
rating per passenger mile



Boeing 747-400 17.5 liters/km

Public Bus 8.9 km/liter

Private automobile 10.6 km/liter



Rate of fuel consumption/passenger km of vehicle and bus, under
assumption of 80% occupancy, typical in commercial airplanes & buses.
 

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What you didnt learn

drivbiwire said:
Fuel prices. HA! I can't speak for other airlines but mine passes ALL the fuel costs on to the customer in the form of fuel surcharges, when the price of fuel goes up you pay the difference not us! I work for a business that understands economics and we make money, unlike other air carriers, we also enjoy profit sharing again unlike other carriers! When the economy tanked my airline suffered NO LOSS OF JOBS again unlike other carriers, heck we even continued to get our normal pay raises.

I can say this, we welcome higher fuel prices simply because we can afford to invest in more efficient aircraft where the competition cannot. Replacing older aircraft with newer ones like the 777-200LRF, 747-8F equate to savings in fuel that alone make our aircraft payments verses older less efficient aircraft.

I fly out of Europe and Asia enough to see fuel prices for cars in the $6.30 range YET the economy there is still growing? How can that be, simple 60+% of the cars are diesel the other percentage get 40-50+mpg! I was driving on the Autobahn the other day and people are still cruising along at 170 clicks...Nope the fuel prices have not hurt the fun factor, then again most name plates have CDI and TDI somewhere on the tail end of the car.

Here is the problem with what you learned when you got your MBA, the guy who is performing and earning a significant return for your investment DESERVES what he makes! You see you are the guy that would cut a salesmans salary and commision because he makes more than you as the owner of the business, where I would maintain his pay margins to insure he gets what he has earned by virtue of performance. I would want my sales people or in the case of the oil companies to make as much stinking money as they can because this means I am getting the best return on my investment as an owner. You would cut their pay and then have the nerve to complain that sales and profits are down or worse you lose your golden performing goose to another company that understands EMPLOYEE VALUE better than you do. If the CEO is a billionaire at any corporation so be it as long as he is performing for the owners which in this case are the share holders.

With all that said, the problem is NOT the oil companies but in fact the American consumer who is buying so much damn oil! If it weren't for the fact that we buy so much oil the 10-14% profit margins would not add up to such extreme numbers. Presidnet Bush is correct, Americans are addicted to petroleum. IF we cut our dependence on oil then the profits will come down, the sad part is that supply and demand dictate the price of oil not the oil companies. I have no doubt that we will soon see $100.00 a pop for oil sometime after years end...

What we need in the US is higher fuel taxes to bring our fuel in line with the rest of the world, the taxes would be adjusted to create a stable price per gallon in effect a variable tax rate. The American consumer has gotten so used to cheap petroleum that they have lost the ability to change and adapt to a changing world market. Exxon-Mobil, Shell or any oil company for that matter does not determine the price of crude its the Chinese, India and other world economic powers that are driving up the price because they can AFFORD to pay the price for energy. They can stomach the costs of oil because they have always known the current price of energy at or near current levels because of the emergence time frames of their economic growth, where we have not. Americans still think that oil is going to return to $29.00 for oil, newsflash never again folks.

Again we need a tax system that sets the price of fuel and gasoline at $6.50 a gallon. The transportation industry (trucking, shipping, rail and Aviation) will continue at the unadjusted rate and follow the crude prices as they fluctuate. Non transportation consumers will pay the inflated price thus forcing change in the choices they make for transporation needs. If they can afford a 6 mpg Hummer GREAT, just don't bitch when you can't afford to fill it up. Again Europe has been paying these prices for some time now and they are offically a larger economy than the US with a fraction of the energy demand primarily driven by greater overall transmportation efficiencies.

DB
Not to down play anyone’s education but I will say you are 99.9% wrong. You must have ties too Ted Kennedy and John Kerry with those thoughts. I have homes in Europe and also own cars there and I know the cost of fuel as well. A large majority of the “tax" goes to the corrupted parties and you can hold your hand over you’re a..!

What you are describing is the closest thing to communism I have heard in a long time; other then socialized medicine. Tax on top of tax is not the answer nor is paying CEO’s X amount to run a public company in the oil sector.

My education gave me a lot and so did my stock portfolio. As person who holds a lot of stock in this market, I am not happy with the decisions made by the big players. This money at the time of need should and by all accounts and records of history should be reinvested into oil discovery. We are too much into NIMBY (Not in my back yard.) I find it funny we do not want to drill in Alaska but we do not mind drilling in the gulf states (US) and in the Middle East; as long as we do not see the rigs. On top of the issue of non-discovery of new oil in the US, they should also be looking and testing for alternatives. Brazil is one of the biggest countries for Ethanol and Ethanol “ready” cars in which our US car companies designed. Since we do not allow trade with Brazil we cannot import these cars; hence more R&D costs here which increases the rate per/gal on all ends.

So if you like to pay the 6-7$ move to a country where you can spend your hard earned money on petrol, and socialized medicine.


I looked into your claim regarding any airline having any benefit or not passing its higher cost to customers, and it is 100% false. Even as surcharges it affected every airline, US and International. I did a search on LEXIS-NEXIS and your statement is by far true.

By the posts I have seen from you, I cannot believe you are half way educated on this topic, thus asking the question does your 747 have a yolk or a keyboard? The BS about higher fuel allowing airlines to buy triple 7’s is also false. The Board of Dir's (and banks) are selling off or ending the leases of the older outdated 747’s with newer fuel efficient 777 or Airbus. This is being done with the hopes that they can recover higher fuel costs with lower passengers and cutting the number of flights to destinations per day. By cutting the number of departures and trying to fill each seat.

Sorry if I was a bit harsh but your figures do not match what you are preaching. I also see you are into diesels, how might you explain the higher price of diesel fuel when it is the cheapest to produce and refine or lack of refine?

Have a good day and enjoy getting bent over by the fuel companies.
 

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endodoc said:
Not to down play anyone’s education but I will say you are 99.9% wrong. You must have ties too Ted Kennedy and John Kerry with those thoughts. I have homes in Europe and also own cars there and I know the cost of fuel as well. A large majority of the “tax" goes to the corrupted parties and you can hold your hand over you’re a..!
Regardless of where the tax goes if implemented properly as a variable tax rate (READ my post) you can stabilize energy prices at the pump thus giving the end consumer time to replace their vehicles with newer more efficient ones. Phased in properly (similar to the current price increases we already pay) people will still be able to afford transportation. The US has already payed similar prices and the economy never stopped during the last fuel crisis. People doubled and tripled up for commutes, life went on and here we are again without having learned our lesson.

What you are describing is the closest thing to communism I have heard in a long time... Tax on top of tax is not the answer nor is paying CEO’s X amount to run a public company in the oil sector.
Are you a communist? Then why would you care how much a publicly traded company pays it's CEO when that CEO is making a proper return on the investment of the share holders? What we are seeing is far and away the BIGGEST demonstration of Supply and demand on a GRAND scale! For too long the US has used it's volume to get the lowest prices, the tide has changed and now volume is working against us. It's not just the American buying gas thats driving up fuel prices, it's every other world economy that is growing and driving up the price of crude, if we want to continue to use our current oil volumes we need to expect to pay more.

This money at the time of need should and by all accounts and records of history should be reinvested into oil discovery. We are too much into NIMBY (Not in my back yard.) I find it funny we do not want to drill in Alaska but we do not mind drilling in the gulf states (US) and in the Middle East; as long as we do not see the rigs. On top of the issue of non-discovery of new oil in the US, they should also be looking and testing for alternatives. Brazil is one of the biggest countries for Ethanol and Ethanol “ready” cars in which our US car companies designed. Since we do not allow trade with Brazil we cannot import these cars; hence more R&D costs here which increases the rate per/gal on all ends.
Regarding discovery, short term fix that won't get oil into the pipeline for a minimum of 2-5 years, we will already be in the $100 range for crude. Again even if instant oil is infused it will only drop oil for 6 months to a year maybe down to $65 thus taking away the incentive to change car buying habits.

Secondly, regarding technology IT's already here, well there as in Europe due to their higher fuel prices! What has happend is US car companies have chosen to build cheap cars for so long that they simply stopped developing viable fuel efficient alternatives. The US is caught with their pants down and are now scrambling to import anything they can find that gets an extra 3 mpg.

I don't even want to get started on Ethanol or E85! Combining E85 with an otto-cycle engine which is already 30% less efficient knocks you down another 10-20% in terms of fuel economy. I thought we were looking for way to IMPROVE fuel economy not reduce it? FT or GTL diesel fuels offer the ability to produce fuels that result in real world fuel economy improvements. Transition to bio based diesel fuels down the road and we slowly build up our own self sufficiency for fuel in the US. Neither is the sole solution but combined they do offer hope if we can reduce our consumption.

So if you like to pay the 6-7$ move to a country where you can spend your hard earned money on petrol, and socialized medicine.
My buying habits speak for my preparedness of $6-7 fuel, sooner or later we will be paying more, I just can't speak for when at this point in time. I will continue taking vacations and going on weekend drives regardless of how high it goes. I just filled up and payed $3.09 a gallon but I also travel nearly 37 miles on each gallon I buy. If I relegate my driving to around town I get around 30 as an average.

Some headlines:

UPS profits jump 10% in quarter
Shipping companies beneift from increase in global trade

FedEx profits continue to grow
Memphis Business Journal - March 22, 2006

Keep shipping, I love you man!


I looked into your claim regarding any airline having any benefit or not passing its higher cost to customers, and it is 100% false. Even as surcharges it affected every airline, US and International. I did a search on LEXIS-NEXIS and your statement is by far true.
Some headlines:

UPS profits jump 10% in quarter
Shipping companies beneift from increase in global trade

FedEx profits continue to grow
Memphis Business Journal - March 22, 2006

Fuel surcharges do benefit the carrier, it passes the fuel prices onto the consumer as it should be. Global trade is booming, sorry but fuel prices do not seem to have impacted this end of the business.

By the posts I have seen from you, I cannot believe you are half way educated on this topic, thus asking the question does your 747 have a yolk or a keyboard?
Most aircraft these days have a keyboard...so the answer is both.

I also see you are into diesels, how might you explain the higher price of diesel fuel when it is the cheapest to produce and refine or lack of refine?
You really seem to struggle with supply and demand economics! Here it goes:

Heating oil and diesel fuel are similar in terms of the cracking process. In the winter the demand for heating oil reduces the volume of diesel that can be cracked from each unit of crude. This drives up the price of diesel fuel along with additional treatment of diesel to meet the fuel specifications for sale in the US.

2006 brings about another change factor that being ULSD and the reduction in sulfur from 500ppm to 15ppm. This only account for $.05 a gallon increase.

Summer fuels are currently hitting the stations and you are seeing the prices change to reflect the shift in lower heating oil production and higher diesel fuel production.

The fact of the matter is despite diesel in the winter costing more than gasoline it's still cheaper by virtue of miles travelled per gallon thanks to the diesels 30%+ greater efficiency.

Have a good day and enjoy getting bent over by the fuel companies.
All I can say to that is my cars get 37mpg and 50mpg... I'm Loving life!

DB
 

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drivbiwire said:
Regardless of where the tax goes if implemented properly as a variable tax rate (READ my post) you can stabilize energy prices at the pump thus giving the end consumer time to replace their vehicles with newer more efficient ones. Phased in properly (similar to the current price increases we already pay) people will still be able to afford transportation. The US has already payed similar prices and the economy never stopped during the last fuel crisis. People doubled and tripled up for commutes, life went on and here we are again without having learned our lesson.



Are you a communist? Then why would you care how much a publicly traded company pays it's CEO when that CEO is making a proper return on the investment of the share holders? What we are seeing is far and away the BIGGEST demonstration of Supply and demand on a GRAND scale! For too long the US has used it's volume to get the lowest prices, the tide has changed and now volume is working against us. It's not just the American buying gas thats driving up fuel prices, it's every other world economy that is growing and driving up the price of crude, if we want to continue to use our current oil volumes we need to expect to pay more.



Regarding discovery, short term fix that won't get oil into the pipeline for a minimum of 2-5 years, we will already be in the $100 range for crude. Again even if instant oil is infused it will only drop oil for 6 months to a year maybe down to $65 thus taking away the incentive to change car buying habits.

Secondly, regarding technology IT's already here, well there as in Europe due to their higher fuel prices! What has happend is US car companies have chosen to build cheap cars for so long that they simply stopped developing viable fuel efficient alternatives. The US is caught with their pants down and are now scrambling to import anything they can find that gets an extra 3 mpg.

I don't even want to get started on Ethanol or E85! Combining E85 with an otto-cycle engine which is already 30% less efficient knocks you down another 10-20% in terms of fuel economy. I thought we were looking for way to IMPROVE fuel economy not reduce it? FT or GTL diesel fuels offer the ability to produce fuels that result in real world fuel economy improvements. Transition to bio based diesel fuels down the road and we slowly build up our own self sufficiency for fuel in the US. Neither is the sole solution but combined they do offer hope if we can reduce our consumption.



My buying habits speak for my preparedness of $6-7 fuel, sooner or later we will be paying more, I just can't speak for when at this point in time. I will continue taking vacations and going on weekend drives regardless of how high it goes. I just filled up and payed $3.09 a gallon but I also travel nearly 37 miles on each gallon I buy. If I relegate my driving to around town I get around 30 as an average.

Some headlines:

UPS profits jump 10% in quarter
Shipping companies beneift from increase in global trade

FedEx profits continue to grow
Memphis Business Journal - March 22, 2006

Keep shipping, I love you man!




Some headlines:

UPS profits jump 10% in quarter
Shipping companies beneift from increase in global trade

FedEx profits continue to grow
Memphis Business Journal - March 22, 2006

Fuel surcharges do benefit the carrier, it passes the fuel prices onto the consumer as it should be. Global trade is booming, sorry but fuel prices do not seem to have impacted this end of the business.



Most aircraft these days have a keyboard...so the answer is both.



You really seem to struggle with supply and demand economics! Here it goes:

Heating oil and diesel fuel are similar in terms of the cracking process. In the winter the demand for heating oil reduces the volume of diesel that can be cracked from each unit of crude. This drives up the price of diesel fuel along with additional treatment of diesel to meet the fuel specifications for sale in the US.

2006 brings about another change factor that being ULSD and the reduction in sulfur from 500ppm to 15ppm. This only account for $.05 a gallon increase.

Summer fuels are currently hitting the stations and you are seeing the prices change to reflect the shift in lower heating oil production and higher diesel fuel production.

The fact of the matter is despite diesel in the winter costing more than gasoline it's still cheaper by virtue of miles travelled per gallon thanks to the diesels 30%+ greater efficiency.



All I can say to that is my cars get 37mpg and 50mpg... I'm Loving life!

DB
crisis. People doubled and tripled up for commutes, life went on and here we are again without having learned our lesson.



Are you a communist? Then why would you care how much a publicly traded company pays it's CEO when that CEO is making a proper return on the investment of the share holders? What we are seeing is far and away the BIGGEST demonstration of Supply and demand on a GRAND scale! For too long the US has used it's volume to get the lowest prices, the tide has changed and now volume is working against us. It's not just the American buying gas thats driving up fuel prices, it's every other world economy that is growing and driving up the price of crude, if we want to continue to use our current oil volumes we need to expect to pay more.



Regarding discovery, short term fix that won't get oil into the pipeline for a minimum of 2-5 years, we will already be in the $100 range for crude. Again even if instant oil is infused it will only drop oil for 6 months to a year maybe down to $65 thus taking away the incentive to change car buying habits.

Secondly, regarding technology IT's already here, well there as in Europe due to their higher fuel prices! What has happend is US car companies have chosen to build cheap cars for so long that they simply stopped developing viable fuel efficient alternatives. The US is caught with their pants down and are now scrambling to import anything they can find that gets an extra 3 mpg.

I don't even want to get started on Ethanol or E85! Combining E85 with an otto-cycle engine which is already 30% less efficient knocks you down another 10-20% in terms of fuel economy. I thought we were looking for way to IMPROVE fuel economy not reduce it? FT or GTL diesel fuels offer the ability to produce fuels that result in real world fuel economy improvements. Transition to bio based diesel fuels down the road and we slowly build up our own self sufficiency for fuel in the US. Neither is the sole solution but combined they do offer hope if we can reduce our consumption.



My buying habits speak for my preparedness of $6-7 fuel, sooner or later we will be paying more, I just can't speak for when at this point in time. I will continue taking vacations and going on weekend drives regardless of how high it goes. I just filled up and payed $3.09 a gallon but I also travel nearly 37 miles on each gallon I buy. If I relegate my driving to around town I get around 30 as an average.

Some headlines:

UPS profits jump 10% in quarter
Shipping companies beneift from increase in global trade

FedEx profits continue to grow
Memphis Business Journal - March 22, 2006

Keep shipping, I love you man!




Some headlines:

UPS profits jump 10% in quarter
Shipping companies beneift from increase in global trade

FedEx profits continue to grow
Memphis Business Journal - March 22, 2006

Fuel surcharges do benefit the carrier, it passes the fuel prices onto the consumer as it should be. Global trade is booming, sorry but fuel prices do not seem to have impacted this end of the business.



Most aircraft these days have a keyboard...so the answer is both.



You really seem to struggle with supply and demand economics! Here it goes:

Heating oil and diesel fuel are similar in terms of the cracking process. In the winter the demand for heating oil reduces the volume of diesel that can be cracked from each unit of crude. This drives up the price of diesel fuel along with additional treatment of diesel to meet the fuel specifications for sale in the US.

2006 brings about another change factor that being ULSD and the reduction in sulfur from 500ppm to 15ppm. This only account for $.05 a gallon increase.

Summer fuels are currently hitting the stations and you are seeing the prices change to reflect the shift in lower heating oil production and higher diesel fuel production.

The fact of the matter is despite diesel in the winter costing more than gasoline it's still cheaper by virtue of miles travelled per gallon thanks to the diesels 30%+ greater efficiency.



All I can say to that is my cars get 37mpg and 50mpg... I'm Loving life!

DB[/QUOTE]

UBS and FedEx are not airlines.... They tought me that in the ivy...
I need to get back to work.... You must be home flying your AMD or retired from Hooters air... oh ya they went out of business because of fuel costs and ramp fees.
I will get back to your other points later. I need to get back to work.... You must be home flying your AMD or retired from Hooters air... oh ya they went out of business because or fuel costs and ramp fees.
I will get back to your other points later.
 

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Current information on fuel surcharges.
Buyers Paying Jet Fuel Tab

By Jay Boehmer

MAY 01, 2006 -- Jet fuel costs, which continued to surge in the past month, served as the catalyst for several new rounds of domestic airfare hikes and new long-haul fuel surcharges. With carriers citing high fuel expenses as the major barrier to profitability, they increasingly are sharing the expense with corporate buyers.

AMR chairman and CEO Gerard Arpey during American Airlines' earnings call said, "This industry, just like every other industry that is dependent on oil, has to turn around and pass this cost to the customers or else there won't be an industry. We haven't done a good job in the past couple of years of taking this cost from the oil industry and passing it to the airline customers. We're doing a little better job this year, but ultimately airline passengers are going to have to pay this. Otherwise, there won't be airplanes flying around."

While fuel increasingly is given as justification for cost increases to travel buyers, Scott Gillespie, president of Solon, Ohio-based Travel Analytics said fare increases in the past year have gone up disproportionately higher than have fuel costs.

"The average fares have gone up about $12 in the past year, and $8 of that can be attributed to the fuel costs," he said, citing research that examines fare growth between late March 2005 to the same period this year. "Airlines also use it as a reason to justify decreased discounts," Gillespie said.

However, carriers assert—and say earnings statements confirm—that rising fares have yet to counter fuel costs.

AMR executive vice president of finance and planning and CFO Tom Horton last month said, "The airline industry is still losing money. Fares have not risen enough to offset the costs of fuel increases."

Capacity cuts are helping further fuel fare increases. "The capacity element helps us as an industry to price towards fuel—not price to fuel. We haven't been able to do that yet cause we keep chasing it and it keeps going up. We're clearly getting closer than we were before," Continental Airlines president Jeff Smisek told BTN. "Today, fuel is the single largest line item on our statement of operations—we used to call it an income statement, now we call it statement of operations. Fuel costs are more than employees worldwide, more than our fleet worldwide, more than our facilities worldwide. That's staggering."

American Airlines led the latest round of low-bucket fare increases of $10 on all roundtrip domestic routes. Continental , Delta, Northwest , United and US Airways all joined AA in the fare hike chorus.

Tom Parsons, CEO of discount travel site and airfare monitor Bestfares.com, said the fare increase on published low-bucket fares is the fifth of the year. "Add that to the 12 hikes that occurred in 2005, and this makes a grand total of 17 airfare hikes since January of 2005 on domestic routes not served by low-cost airlines like Southwest, Jet Blue, Spirit and AirTran," said Parsons. Yet, even low-cost carriers have been raising prices. Southwest and JetBlue this year led increases (BTN, April 3) and Spirit last month raised most fares by $5 to $20 each way in domestic markets as well as the Bahamas, Mexico and the Caribbean.

In the past month, fuel also spurred high-end fare increases as well as newly initiated fuel surcharges on international long-haul routes.

Delta last month initiated a round of high-end fare jumps following a failed attempt led by United. The carrier raised first class and full coach fares in certain markets by $50, prompting other majors to at least partially follow. A Delta spokesperson would not disclose which markets the increase affects.

In an e-mail to clients heralding a new calculator that shows how fuel relates to fares, Gillespie's Travel Analytics noted, "Savvy travel buyers should not accept these hikes without a closer look. The buyer's challenge is to know how much of a fare hike is warranted, and how much should be negotiable. You have to look hard at the facts in order to create negotiating leverage for your travel program."

As such, the technology provider is offering a new tool that shows historic jet fuel prices and lets buyers see how they relate to other variables, such as distance of the trip and aircraft fuel efficiency.

Yet, corporate buyers cannot avoid some increases. American, Delta, Northwest, British Airways and KLM Royal Dutch Airlines recently upped fuel surcharges on various long-haul routes.

AA specifically did not raise surcharges on fares to and from Japan, but levied an additional $10-per-way fuel charge on other long-haul flights "with few exceptions." Delta levied a $10-per-way charge on tickets for most transatlantic flights, except those to and from France and Italy. Flights to or from India and Israel will have an added $15 and $19 each way, respectively. Northwest said that in most cases it is raising its fuel surcharge by $10 each way on flights to Europe, the Middle East and Asia. Surcharges on flights to India, however, remain the same.

KLM increased its fuel surcharge by ?5 (US$6.05) each way on all long-haul flights and said it would remove the charge "as soon as the barrel price drops below $65 for 30 consecutive days."

British Airways raised its fuel surcharge on long-haul flights by £5 to £35 (US$9 to $62), the carrier said. "Our annual fuel bill for 2005/2006 is expected to be £1.6 billion," said commercial director Martin George. "We estimated previously that this would rise by £400 million in 2006/2007 but, at these prices, we would now expect this year's fuel bill to be £600 million higher at £2.2 billion."

Virgin Atlantic matched BA and Ireland-based low-cost carrier Aer Lingus introduced its first-ever surcharges for flights to North America and the Middle East of ?70 ($86) per roundtrip. The airline cited an increased fuel bill of 86 percent since 2005. However, both Lufthansa and KLM merger partner Air France said they have no plans to raise their surcharges again.


Relief for buyers and suppliers from fuel costs and their consequences is not expected any time soon. Crude oil for May delivery last month rose to more than $72 a barrel, according to the New York Mercantile Exchange. Continental's Smisek noted that in addition to the base cost of oil, the crack spread—representing the cost of refinement for jet fuel—remains high.

"In October of last year, the crack spread was higher than the price of West Texas Intermediate crude," Smisek said. "There was a day when crude was $63 and the crack spread was $67 a barrel. So we were spending $130 per barrel for jet fuel. The crack spread today runs roughly $15, $16 and historically it's been below $5."

The Air Transport Association said the airline industry's total fuel bill more than doubled from 2003 to 2005 and increased $10.3 billion between 2004 and 2005. "In addition, the first-quarter price data suggests higher average prices throughout 2006 versus 2005," ATA said in a statement.
Fuel surcharges have existed in the cargo industry for some time. Luftansa, UPS, BA, FedEx as well as other international airlines. The Passenger industry in the US has for too long competed for low fairs trying to get market share. Now fuel prices are actually helping to reduce this losing battle by making a reasonable plea to the consumer to pay higher fares, and they are. This still falls short of an actual fuel surcharge and its day is almost here. Soon, domestic passengers will be paying a seperate fuel surcharge listed on their ticket price break down.

By the way, Hooters air did not goes out of business, they went "tit's up"... :D

I'm actually on a layover in Dubai... I blast off at 0800 GMT, I will look for your post when you are let out of your cubicle... :D

Lear, recompute your data for seat miles per gallon, figure the cost based on 3600 gallon per hour burn, 497 knots/564 statute (LRC M.84, 0 adjusted cost index), 430 seats (less than full 2 class config). The range is as high as 85 mpg/seat down to around 60ish if you are counting actual SLF (Self Loading Freight) aboard.

DB
 

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Just My 2 cents in here - not a pilot - will let endoc and db duke it out and share their bank account balances and net worth :)

The American dream is to have a house in the burbs, a big house, with a great education program for their kids. They have been led to belive that living out in the burbs and driving 30miles or more is ok. There was no push to create a transportation system outside of most metropolitan areas

Now that the oil prices are rising, its the middle income man who is hurt. The dreams of living in a nice home is getting tougher. They can't ask the middle income bracket person to move closer to the city as the real estate prices have sky rocketed in major cities.

Lets face it - gas will not go down to $1.50 again, with inflation and growing demand, prices will keep going up.

The way of thinking, that people have to live in the outskirts and drive 30 miles to work needs to change. A better transportation system needs to be developed. The mind set of majority of citizens needs to be reset.

Lear31 is right - those who can afford the fuel will continue to buy the cars, but we will also see more folks moving to the smaller cars. Then again, the mindset is also to beat the neigbour at any cost, driving themsleves to more debt- so people may still buy the big SUV or luxury car despite the higher fuel cost. We live in a society that is driven by debt. The Exxons and Shells of the world will still win regardless of the outcome.
 

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Dallas_E500 said:
Just My 2 cents in here - not a pilot - will let endoc and db duke it out and share their bank account balances and net worth :)

The American dream is to have a house in the burbs, a big house, with a great education program for their kids. They have been led to belive that living out in the burbs and driving 30miles or more is ok. There was no push to create a transportation system outside of most metropolitan areas

Now that the oil prices are rising, its the middle income man who is hurt. The dreams of living in a nice home is getting tougher. They can't ask the middle income bracket person to move closer to the city as the real estate prices have sky rocketed in major cities.

Lets face it - gas will not go down to $1.50 again, with inflation and growing demand, prices will keep going up.

The way of thinking, that people have to live in the outskirts and drive 30 miles to work needs to change. A better transportation system needs to be developed. The mind set of majority of citizens needs to be reset.

Lear31 is right - those who can afford the fuel will continue to buy the cars, but we will also see more folks moving to the smaller cars. Then again, the mindset is also to beat the neigbour at any cost, driving themsleves to more debt- so people may still buy the big SUV or luxury car despite the higher fuel cost. We live in a society that is driven by debt. The Exxons and Shells of the world will still win regardless of the outcome.
Agree to a point. We need to look at long term issues. We in the US are so focused on short term issues we lose sight of who, what and where.
 

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Happy Flying

drivbiwire said:
Current information on fuel surcharges.


Fuel surcharges have existed in the cargo industry for some time. Luftansa, UPS, BA, FedEx as well as other international airlines. The Passenger industry in the US has for too long competed for low fairs trying to get market share. Now fuel prices are actually helping to reduce this losing battle by making a reasonable plea to the consumer to pay higher fares, and they are. This still falls short of an actual fuel surcharge and its day is almost here. Soon, domestic passengers will be paying a seperate fuel surcharge listed on their ticket price break down.

By the way, Hooters air did not goes out of business, they went "tit's up"... :D

I'm actually on a layover in Dubai... I blast off at 0800 GMT, I will look for your post when you are let out of your cubicle... :D

Lear, recompute your data for seat miles per gallon, figure the cost based on 3600 gallon per hour burn, 497 knots/564 statute (LRC M.84, 0 adjusted cost index), 430 seats (less than full 2 class config). The range is as high as 85 mpg/seat down to around 60ish if you are counting actual SLF (Self Loading Freight) aboard.

DB

I don't want to turn this into a pissing match as I respect you all. We are all educated and have oue own thoughts.

I see your point, but it is back to the topic of demand and not looking for new ways to drill or other methods of fuel. As I stated in my post this morning we (US) needs to find a way to better serve the people who live outside the city. In europe we take trains and US we take our nice MB X amount of miles to work. Honestly I have no issue with money or using gas for my cars, but I would much perfer to spend less at the pump vs. more. My point in all this is we as consumers need to be the watch dogs for the fat cats and really look at where and how money is being spent. I will be the first to tell you all I am a Rep. and support the party. Being also in the med. community as well as the business aspect, I think they are more on the side of med. and thats where my wife and I earn our green...


I think it is fair to say we are a country that needs to learn to conserve. I am the first one to have a heavy foot and waste gas, but it dosnt bother me or really effect my bank acct. Other people I know it does, but as we take the gas price and shrug it off we are effecting everyone, rich and poor. We have to look at us and know we are not avg people; not everyone drives MB or new ones as we are in the 211 thread.

So lets just agree to disagree and move on.
 

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Nuff said, Time to go participate in international commerce...

DB
 

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Now my 3 cents worth ...

Isn't the oil companies buying oil on the futures and hedging against prices going up. Wouldn't they have seen oil prices going up based on the war. Eg. only reason Southwest Airlines is profitable is becasue they hedged well, and reaping in the profits of buying oil cheap - they are using of ratio of the cheap oil + todays oil prices to keep the "books" looking good and costs down.

You can't say Exxon is not doing the same by buying oil on the futures market- this increase in Oil prices is just one way to make more money and screwing the American people.

Next - Ethanol shortage - come on now - Every summer Ethanol is added - you mean the oil companies did not expect ethanol to be added and now there is a shortage.

Bottom line - the Oil companies are living large based on American pepole not understanding the markets and business practices.

Check this out - I sort of followJubaks articles - http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P149921.asp#msnhp
 

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Dallas_E500 said:
Now my 3 cents worth ...

Isn't the oil companies buying oil on the futures and hedging against prices going up. Wouldn't they have seen oil prices going up based on the war. Eg. only reason Southwest Airlines is profitable is becasue they hedged well, and reaping in the profits of buying oil cheap - they are using of ratio of the cheap oil + todays oil prices to keep the "books" looking good and costs down.

You can't say Exxon is not doing the same by buying oil on the futures market- this increase in Oil prices is just one way to make more money and screwing the American people.

Next - Ethanol shortage - come on now - Every summer Ethanol is added - you mean the oil companies did not expect ethanol to be added and now there is a shortage.

Bottom line - the Oil companies are living large based on American pepole not understanding the markets and business practices.

Check this out - I sort of followJubaks articles - http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P149921.asp#msnhp
Looks like were on the same page...
 
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