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Discussion Starter #141
i will admit im NOT pleased with the downgraded forum..call it an update but its no upgrade, if i knew where else to hang the merc stuff id go there too

ill be trickling in updates on the rear rails too
 

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1986 560SL with M120 V12 Engine, 1988 560SL Stock
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Good to see you back. Yes the new forum Sucks and after being on it a while, I have come to the conclusion that its not just me, I really does Suck with a capital S. When you say the nut setup would not work on the road, is that from a legal issue or just practicality. I have seen plenty of these when I worked on these cars in the 70's.
 

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450slc5.0cab 280sl5sp 280se4.5 500seAMG +250seStkW108 350sl4spdX3 500secEuro
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When you say the nut setup would not work on the road, is that from a legal issue or just practicality. I have seen plenty of these when I worked on these cars in the 70's.
I know that the guy who owns my local wheel shop switched to the single center nut setup on his Porsche that he would track regularly. I guess I don’t know if there was any concern with inspection, but don’t see why there would be when they don’t even remove hubcaps when I get my cars inspected. How different could this be than using knock-offs?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #145 (Edited)
there "can" be issues, one thing for sure its not DOT approved, i can only imagine the problem it would cause importing it from the US to canada, then theres potential out of balance issues that center nuts can have that you dont care about on a race track, and then of course just TRY and chase down 1 of those wheels let alone 4....good bloody luck and dont even ask about the price just write a blank check
then the next issue was trying to find a conversion setup to run them...everything i turned up was either cheep junk or would have required buckets of money to mod to fit on top of that youd have to match the style to the wheels you found as theres a handfull of different styles of hub drive, and youd have to hope that the 4 wheels you found were all the same style....we even considered axing the idea of the vintage bbs style for a modern center knockoff only to run into the same issues


youd be into the whole setup about 20k on the cheep end , i think we found a pair of the wheels for 8-9k euros earlier this year

basicly it "can" be done if all the stars and plannets aligned across multiple galaxys and you won the lottery, and in the end youd still have to have the hub/spindle assembly made from scratch to match the wheels

we actualy found a reproduction shop who basicly said yes..we can make anything, that specializes in porsche and bmw? or was it merc?, either way they gave us a green light and then we adjusted the render to suit, and then tweaked to 5x114.3 so a pair of 19x13.5 and a pair of 19x10x5? or was it 11.5?the end result is quite stunning....if my partner in crime here will post them yall can drool

remember we allready picked out and bought the rubber
 

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We have enlisted a graphic artist to assist us in bringing our concepts to 3D.
These are NOT cartoon, unrealistic proportion renders.
Everything is true to scale - scanned body lines from a real 74' 450 SLC. In the end, any part's data can be imputed into CNC or 3D printing for a perfect fit.
We've tweaked several key lines involving the fenders but remain within 70's era.
These renders are about 90% there so we felt confident to share the progress.
The rear is within reach with the exhaust being the key factor to lock down.
We should have that sorted soon.

Renders are just renders.
We will create what you see.
2608607
2608608
2608609
2608610
2608611
 

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'79 450SL, '04 CLK200 convertible; former A124, W210, A209.
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Class verric & sh0rtlife - one way or another, this seems to be the most epic transformation I'm seeing on the forum... or in my life for that matter! Keep it coming guys, keep on!
 

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Discussion Starter #148 (Edited)
some pics of the rear rails going together, i had some concerns about potential idiot mechanics down the road in its life so i added crush proof sleevs to the mounting points, youll strip a bolt before you crush the tubes still a good ways to go, but the majority of its cut and calculated out, once im not sick ill finish it up

theres alot of unseen chalanges when doing something like this...youve got to calculate everything longer so it will fit the body, youve got to tripple check with the body for the "where" will it sit, what might be in the way or cause an issue, so a metric ton of thought goes into the design, and then you have to re-modify that train of thought to fit the toyota supra gear and find an even ground along the way, in the past i would have just cut the rails from the donar car and slid them into the project car and called it a day, in the end tho you end up with having to modify everything and back brace it all , and you spend MORE time fixing and correcting, sure scratch building is hard but you build in much more strength and ridgidity but your in a constant battle of fit vs clearance vs geometry , in the case of the front, its simple 2 rails with some angles and holes, add braces to suit, with the rear youve gotta figure out how to get from the rear bummper line to the cradle, up and over the cradle then out to 2 angle lines as the mounts are not all "in line" and then not only brace out to the rockers but forward to the front rails, as well as clear the arms, leave room for alignment, leave adjustment in the craddle to rail holes for further alignment, and calculate how/wheer the shocks will mount, its not something for the weak of heart thats for sure...its easier to explaine it that it is to actualy calculate it and pull it off...and dont forget youve gotta make it strong enough to take HARD launches and brute force of the tires, brakes and engine








 

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Love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reminds of the old saying "measure twice, cut once" ;-)
 

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Discussion Starter #150
Love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reminds of the old saying "measure twice, cut once" ;-)
i WISH it were that simple, theres alot of measuring and sketching out ideas then re-checking to see if its possible, and alot of just mocking up chunks of steel till you find a combination that looks doable, then referance that back to the measurements and then tweak it, thankfuly i keep alot of reminant steel tube around anything 1ft-20ft, but like to keep a nice assortment of 2-4ft , so you can just kinda eyeball and grab from the pile lay everything in place and keep doing it till something lights your brain bulb or fits like a glove

in the case of this rear its an Hin the rear into a V at the front while needing to C up and over with an extra 4-6 inches of drop in the front
 

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Fair enough sh0rtlife, I stand corrected - in this case "measure a hundred time, cut once, rinse & repeat" :D

I'm striping my old lady for a respray incl the interior, which is maybe max 10% in terms of the overall effort that you guys are going through, and I have nothing but utmost appreciation for the lengths you're going to to get the project done. Respect my man!
 

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I hope it’s ok to comment on the design, and will be received as constructive comments, mostly with the intention of making sure these aspects are considered in the design.

I think I remember looking at the design and not falling in love. But as I look at it more and more, I am impressed with the amount of detail that has been considered, and see the “function first” aspect of the widened panels and appreciate all that has gone into the design.

I’m using the images as cues for topics:


I would love someone to produce a pre-fab roll-bar kit for these SLC cars. I realize any fabricator worth a damn should be able to weld up a cage, but it’s a time consuming endeavor, and every fabricator re-inventing the wheel isn’t efficient. I wonder if you’d consider when making your cage providing something as a service or product to others that will want to put cages in an SLC. Perhaps the availability of cages would increase the demand for the chassis as a whole.

That leads me to a next comment... Bumpers. Big bumpers are, IMO, the killer for the desirability of the C107 chassis. Most of these cars in the states have big bumpers that kill the lines. I’m a little concerned that the artist renditions are larger than European bumpers.





If I’m just wrong about the bumpers, please disregard. But a really like the way it looks like the widening panels will simply hide the sides of the bumpers. Combining that with the loss of the side moldings really works together IMO because stock cars have a “belt” that runs all the way around the car when combining the euro bumpers sides with the side moldings. Leaving one or the other looks wrong IMO.

Continuing on with the bumpers, maybe this is just a potential lack of detail in the renditions, but is there an intention to remove just the center of the rear bumper skirt? I would imagine just cutting out an exhaust section for the right / passenger side tailpipe would be more true to the original design.



I guess it could also be cool to see the outer panels come all the way across the back connecting each other, maybe providing each other a little extra strength?

And back to the dual tail pipes, I wonder if there’s going to be an issue with space and the fact that the stock fuel pump assembly lives on that passenger side.

Continuing with the rear... Is there benefit to having two spoilers on the rear? I would think one or the other, but not both.



I like the way the design uses the ribs behind the front wheels, unlike the original design. I also like the way the ribs are used on the big spoiler, but also see that as unnecessary because it’s a different height than the rest of the ribs on the car.



I think the last comment I have is about the angle of the front edge of the front fender extensions. They seem to follow the angle of the side-marker (US) / Turn signal (Euro) amber lens connection to the fender. I respect this and think it works, but want to draw attention to the fact that the grill slopes in the opposite direction, which is not depicted in any of the pictures of the renditions. I wonder if the angle of this front panel should be considered more (or if that’s already been done/considered).





I’m honestly just trying to help make sure this car is the best it can possibly be, and hope you see my comments as constructive.

BUILD ON! :D

Love it!



Edit:
One more comment... I think the rear view looks a little like the rear end of a rocket propelled space shuttle. I think that a little taper to show more sheet metal on that rear view could be beneficial. See what I scraped off the passenger side in this view.
 

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[/QUOTE]
I hope it’s ok to comment on the design, and will be received as constructive comments, mostly with the intention of making sure these aspects are considered in the design.

I think I remember looking at the design and not falling in love. But as I look at it more and more, I am impressed with the amount of detail that has been considered, and see the “function first” aspect of the widened panels and appreciate all that has gone into the design.

I’m using the images as cues for topics:


I would love someone to produce a pre-fab roll-bar kit for these SLC cars. I realize any fabricator worth a damn should be able to weld up a cage, but it’s a time consuming endeavor, and every fabricator re-inventing the wheel isn’t efficient. I wonder if you’d consider when making your cage providing something as a service or product to others that will want to put cages in an SLC. Perhaps the availability of cages would increase the demand for the chassis as a whole.

That leads me to a next comment... Bumpers. Big bumpers are, IMO, the killer for the desirability of the C107 chassis. Most of these cars in the states have big bumpers that kill the lines. I’m a little concerned that the artist renditions are larger than European bumpers.





If I’m just wrong about the bumpers, please disregard. But a really like the way it looks like the widening panels will simply hide the sides of the bumpers. Combining that with the loss of the side moldings really works together IMO because stock cars have a “belt” that runs all the way around the car when combining the euro bumpers sides with the side moldings. Leaving one or the other looks wrong IMO.

Continuing on with the bumpers, maybe this is just a potential lack of detail in the renditions, but is there an intention to remove just the center of the rear bumper skirt? I would imagine just cutting out an exhaust section for the right / passenger side tailpipe would be more true to the original design.



I guess it could also be cool to see the outer panels come all the way across the back connecting each other, maybe providing each other a little extra strength?

And back to the dual tail pipes, I wonder if there’s going to be an issue with space and the fact that the stock fuel pump assembly lives on that passenger side.

Continuing with the rear... Is there benefit to having two spoilers on the rear? I would think one or the other, but not both.



I like the way the design uses the ribs behind the front wheels, unlike the original design. I also like the way the ribs are used on the big spoiler, but also see that as unnecessary because it’s a different height than the rest of the ribs on the car.



I think the last comment I have is about the angle of the front edge of the front fender extensions. They seem to follow the angle of the side-marker (US) / Turn signal (Euro) amber lens connection to the fender. I respect this and think it works, but want to draw attention to the fact that the grill slopes in the opposite direction, which is not depicted in any of the pictures of the renditions. I wonder if the angle of this front panel should be considered more (or if that’s already been done/considered).





I’m honestly just trying to help make sure this car is the best it can possibly be, and hope you see my comments as constructive.

BUILD ON! :D

Love it!



Edit:
One more comment... I think the rear view looks a little like the rear end of a rocket propelled space shuttle. I think that a little taper to show more sheet metal on that rear view could be beneficial. See what I scraped off the passenger side in this view.

Thanks for your input.
As originally stated, these renders are 90% there.
It's been our experience to overdraft concepts only to then dial them back during the fabrication process. Rather than to "add onto"
This is the reason the areas you've illustrated stand out as "too much" in on way or another.
Keep in mind, these renders have built in wiggle room to scale for successful ratio tweaks.
We are satisfied with these current parameters.
Therefore the physical chiseling will cement the car's concept.
The car is not meant to be completely polished or modernized. That would suffocate the concept.
Instead, it's work that would of been completed with a 70's mind with a few carbon pieces.
In our eyes, more of what could be concidered a 450 SLC Homologation series car.

If there is a demand for the roll cage, that is something Short will has to assess as it's consuming none-the-less.
We have 2 options at the moment going forward addressing this modification. We're just judging on what route to take.
 

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We have been working on developing our own wheels as nothing currently on the market represented the car.
It has been a difficult process pulling together resources to develop our wheel concept.
However, we finally managed to lock in all aspects of design to have them built from scratch.

Wheel centers are super concave, BBS mesh inspired with flush concave, MB engraved center bores.
All bolt holes are flush as dragged as per mesh design.
Wheel lips are also custom spun, 19 inch triple step shells.

Wheels were designed with "whatever" offsets as the look supersedes any particular number. It is what it will be.
Our focus was just to locate the wheels where we want them.

Fronts are 19x10.5 w/275-35
Rears are 19x13.5 w/345/35
Balanced stretch calculated and mocked.

Currently now in production.

2609819
2609820
2609821
 

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1978 450SL - original owner family
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We have been working on developing our own wheels as nothing currently on the market represented the car.
It has been a difficult process pulling together resources to develop our wheel concept.
However, we finally managed to lock in all aspects of design to have them built from scratch.

Wheel centers are super concave, BBS mesh inspired with flush concave, MB engraved center bores.
All bolt holes are flush as dragged as per mesh design.
Wheel lips are also custom spun, 19 inch triple step shells.

Wheels were designed with "whatever" offsets as the look supersedes any particular number. It is what it will be.
Our focus was just to locate the wheels where we want them.

Fronts are 19x10.5 w/275-35
Rears are 19x13.5 w/345/35
Balanced stretch calculated and mocked.

Currently now in production.

View attachment 2609819 View attachment 2609820 View attachment 2609821
Those wheels are really nice.
 

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Discussion Starter #159
I hope it’s ok to comment on the design, and will be received as constructive comments, mostly with the intention of making sure these aspects are considered in the design.

I think I remember looking at the design and not falling in love. But as I look at it more and more, I am impressed with the amount of detail that has been considered, and see the “function first” aspect of the widened panels and appreciate all that has gone into the design.

I’m using the images as cues for topics:


I would love someone to produce a pre-fab roll-bar kit for these SLC cars. I realize any fabricator worth a damn should be able to weld up a cage, but it’s a time consuming endeavor, and every fabricator re-inventing the wheel isn’t efficient. I wonder if you’d consider when making your cage providing something as a service or product to others that will want to put cages in an SLC. Perhaps the availability of cages would increase the demand for the chassis as a whole.

That leads me to a next comment... Bumpers. Big bumpers are, IMO, the killer for the desirability of the C107 chassis. Most of these cars in the states have big bumpers that kill the lines. I’m a little concerned that the artist renditions are larger than European bumpers.





If I’m just wrong about the bumpers, please disregard. But a really like the way it looks like the widening panels will simply hide the sides of the bumpers. Combining that with the loss of the side moldings really works together IMO because stock cars have a “belt” that runs all the way around the car when combining the euro bumpers sides with the side moldings. Leaving one or the other looks wrong IMO.

Continuing on with the bumpers, maybe this is just a potential lack of detail in the renditions, but is there an intention to remove just the center of the rear bumper skirt? I would imagine just cutting out an exhaust section for the right / passenger side tailpipe would be more true to the original design.



I guess it could also be cool to see the outer panels come all the way across the back connecting each other, maybe providing each other a little extra strength?

And back to the dual tail pipes, I wonder if there’s going to be an issue with space and the fact that the stock fuel pump assembly lives on that passenger side.

Continuing with the rear... Is there benefit to having two spoilers on the rear? I would think one or the other, but not both.



I like the way the design uses the ribs behind the front wheels, unlike the original design. I also like the way the ribs are used on the big spoiler, but also see that as unnecessary because it’s a different height than the rest of the ribs on the car.



I think the last comment I have is about the angle of the front edge of the front fender extensions. They seem to follow the angle of the side-marker (US) / Turn signal (Euro) amber lens connection to the fender. I respect this and think it works, but want to draw attention to the fact that the grill slopes in the opposite direction, which is not depicted in any of the pictures of the renditions. I wonder if the angle of this front panel should be considered more (or if that’s already been done/considered).





I’m honestly just trying to help make sure this car is the best it can possibly be, and hope you see my comments as constructive.

BUILD ON! :D

Love it!



Edit:
One more comment... I think the rear view looks a little like the rear end of a rocket propelled space shuttle. I think that a little taper to show more sheet metal on that rear view could be beneficial. See what I scraped off the passenger side in this view.
ill take a slightly bigger poke at this and for everyone reading this WE LOVE INPUT it helps keep us tracking and will sometimes yar something loose in the ideas or even spawn something we hadnt thought of, so please do be afraid to chime in

the cage will be a custom ordered "kit" from a well known company on the east coast that takes YOUR measurements and angles as well as design and then ships you bent and notched tubes, you install, so all said and done the kit should be availible and "in the system

the design on the bumpers is still open for a bit of inturpritation, in an ideal world they would be modified euro bumpers, IE take 2 top halves and another set of 2 flip em over and weld them together for a complete chrome bumper, so we will end up making something kinda of off those lines, some of the bulk your seeing is fill panels, we did a large pile of drafts with bumpers without, with bumpers from other cars, and what we found was that without, the car has too much flat vertical surface and that a bumper was needed to break things up...fret not they will not be big huge us spec units

as for the tail end of the car and the open around the exhaust, this is one of our unfinished areas, but, if you go looking at race cars of the era this is a fairly normal look to let air and heat out from under the car, later this got turned into difusers, the stock tank, fuel pump and well EVERYTHING from the back seat floor back will pretty much be custom under the car soooooooo room for anything

on the spoiler end, its for apearance sake, and if you look closer youll find technicaly a 3rd one..the solar wing on the rear window, , think back to some of the imsa and other road rules where the guys were being limited in wing size so they were grabbing and scavanging every bit of air they could for downforce, funny thing tho, remove the factory tail with that big wing above it and the trunk lid suddenly looks MASSIVE and the rear of the car suddenly looks huge, so theres alot of refined asthetics to it as well, as for the side fluting in the spoiler, our render guy did that on his own and, we liked it, we had a look again without and it did a nice job of adding a little style and class to an otherwise boring slab, is it needed..no but it sure does add something

the front angle gave us fits for well over a month and is in fact why we went to a render artist, it was going to be a make or break..either we figure it out or the project gets scrapped, while yes the grill goes the otherway, we played with many angles and the only one that actualy works was to use the turn signal angle and chase that down to a splitter, we had alot of cool ideas that once implemented would fight EVERYTHING if they harmonized with the grill...basicly the grill is the odd man out and ya just have to bear with it...we even considered changing the grill angle, as well as exaggerating its angle, and some of the drafts looked pretty cool but only from head on..as soon as you went to the side everything would fall apart

the rear angles were still playing with, but the taper you drafted in, we tried and while top down it looks good, it fails at neerly every other angle, these SLC's are a HUGE challange as they tend to be optical illusion masters and every angle presents its own issues, some angles make the back window MASSIVE others make it look fine, the whole body is a challange from hell cause at every viewing angle the car displays everything differently, and its the first car ive seen do it to this kind of level, the average car you can get away with alot of things looking fine at every angle, the SLC youlld find alot of things that will only look good at 1 or 2 angles and then look totaly wrong one 3 others and ok at the rest
 

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Short is correct in saying what he has and yes, I do echo those views. We are a team. Short and I have worked together in the past redesigning a car from scratch and it was a process that saw MANY, MANY iterations over the years. I am extremely busy most days and unfortunately, do not have the luxury of working on the build as much as I would like. Distance is another huge factor. I live in Toronto while Short resides in Portland - over 4200 kms apart. Dream scenario would be for us to be in the same city with time on our side. Such is not the case.

When I do have time, I work with our rendering artist on further refinements. He's located on the other side of the planet so aligning times zones and free time to communicate ideas in a timely manner is also challenging. However, it's all part of the process.

The renders have changed since the most recent updates as we were awaiting new renders. It's a lot of back and forth tweaking angles and concepts. However, things are moving in the right direction. Depending on what is more feesable and time effective, some parts might get either 3D printed of carbon laid for simplicity.

As Short had mentioned, the front end was/is a HUGE challenge. It's an absolute nightmare from a design aspect regarding flow. Yes, we almost scrapped the entire build due to that front end. We just could not get the lines to work well enough for our concept. That's when we brought in the help of a render artist to communicate with. It was a move that finally put us over the hump and gave us enough confidence that we could build it. New lines were introduced and we added what was needed.

All feedback is welcomed. We have zero ego or fear.
 
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