404.1 Exercises....
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That green radio box had some bad rust. After much thought and consultation, I decided to dismantle it for the mounts and scrap the rest. I hope to use the mounts to build a flatbed that will (hopefully) act as a flat bed and a mount for the TLF-8 box.
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404.1 Exercises.....
One more from that folder...
This photo really reminds me why I really love the fire box. First of all, I think it looks cool as hell. I like the lower center of gravity, less weight, and less length when compared to the radio box. Eventually I'll turn the interior of the TLF-8 box into some sleeping quarters with spartan amenities. The fire box needs to be reinforced, some body work, and a floor solution. I've got a bank of batteries and some electrical gear that will go back there, some tools and spares I'd like to make part of the package, am thinking about water and fuel storage, and want a comfortable/warm/dry bed to sleep in.
One more from that folder...
This photo really reminds me why I really love the fire box. First of all, I think it looks cool as hell. I like the lower center of gravity, less weight, and less length when compared to the radio box. Eventually I'll turn the interior of the TLF-8 box into some sleeping quarters with spartan amenities. The fire box needs to be reinforced, some body work, and a floor solution. I've got a bank of batteries and some electrical gear that will go back there, some tools and spares I'd like to make part of the package, am thinking about water and fuel storage, and want a comfortable/warm/dry bed to sleep in.
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And oh yes, it was determined that a motor was to be installed...
The original motor in this Mog ran fine. I had no reason to take it apart, let alone to do a compression check on it. It was the original motor, apparently never rebuilt (no rebuild tags, I suppose they could have been removed but no evidence of that). This is where things got interesting. The PO said that he fully rebuilt the motor because when he got it the engine was locked up with rust. He has a different version of 'fully rebuilt' than I do. He also informed me that he rebuilt the transmission (wouldn't go into 5th gear) at the same time.
I found so many loose nuts and bolts, it was terrifying. Although the transmission had never given me problems, it was leaky. I resealed the upper half of the transmission...while checking the shift linkage/levers, I found that the 'bolt' that locates the forward/reverse lever was about to fall into the transmission. Seriously, just a couple of threads. I got lucky.
Not so on the motor. While I had the valve cover off, I wanted to replace several lash adjusters that had apparently been adjusted with a vice-grip type set of pliers. The first five adjusters came out fine. The last one pulled every single thread out. Great. I deal with it, and accept that I'm going to have to pull the head for some machine work/repair. I pulled the head and was amazed at what I saw. The cylinders were *trashed*. That motor had never been bored. Somebody had certainly been in there, but nothing was ever done about the badly pitted and scored cylinder walls. I really can't believe it ran as well as it did. You could feel the pitting and scores with your finger. There was nothing cylindrical about those cylinders. Even though this motor ran well, I couldn't put it back together like that. Something had to be done.
Rebuilding the motor properly would cost a fortune. I ended up getting a crate motor from Scott at EI. The rebuilt motor is really a thing of beauty. Everything about that motor is really top notch. The re-builders definitely put some love into these motors.
The removal/install of the motor was really straightforward, as was the clutch install. Its all just really heavy, big, and high off the ground! Before I installed the motor, I went through the pre-lubing process described on EI's website. Along with putting in some good oil, I put some assembly lube on the cam lobes and rocker arms. I pressurized the oiling system by spinning the oil pump for several minutes at a time. After an oiling session, I would rotate the motor by hand for a couple of revolutions, and then lube again. Scott has the special tools for the pre-lubing process to rent, as well as the clutch alignment tool (if you can't find the GM one that is supposed to work).
Note on the clutch pictures: This is how the 'puck' style clutch is supposed to be installed. If installed per the repair manual instructions, you would see the splined 'nose' of the clutch 'disk' pointing towards the 3 fingers of the pressure plate. As it is installed, the nose faces the engine. This is how the clutch should be installed to avoid contact with the 3 fingers of the pressure plate.
The original motor in this Mog ran fine. I had no reason to take it apart, let alone to do a compression check on it. It was the original motor, apparently never rebuilt (no rebuild tags, I suppose they could have been removed but no evidence of that). This is where things got interesting. The PO said that he fully rebuilt the motor because when he got it the engine was locked up with rust. He has a different version of 'fully rebuilt' than I do. He also informed me that he rebuilt the transmission (wouldn't go into 5th gear) at the same time.
I found so many loose nuts and bolts, it was terrifying. Although the transmission had never given me problems, it was leaky. I resealed the upper half of the transmission...while checking the shift linkage/levers, I found that the 'bolt' that locates the forward/reverse lever was about to fall into the transmission. Seriously, just a couple of threads. I got lucky.
Not so on the motor. While I had the valve cover off, I wanted to replace several lash adjusters that had apparently been adjusted with a vice-grip type set of pliers. The first five adjusters came out fine. The last one pulled every single thread out. Great. I deal with it, and accept that I'm going to have to pull the head for some machine work/repair. I pulled the head and was amazed at what I saw. The cylinders were *trashed*. That motor had never been bored. Somebody had certainly been in there, but nothing was ever done about the badly pitted and scored cylinder walls. I really can't believe it ran as well as it did. You could feel the pitting and scores with your finger. There was nothing cylindrical about those cylinders. Even though this motor ran well, I couldn't put it back together like that. Something had to be done.
Rebuilding the motor properly would cost a fortune. I ended up getting a crate motor from Scott at EI. The rebuilt motor is really a thing of beauty. Everything about that motor is really top notch. The re-builders definitely put some love into these motors.
The removal/install of the motor was really straightforward, as was the clutch install. Its all just really heavy, big, and high off the ground! Before I installed the motor, I went through the pre-lubing process described on EI's website. Along with putting in some good oil, I put some assembly lube on the cam lobes and rocker arms. I pressurized the oiling system by spinning the oil pump for several minutes at a time. After an oiling session, I would rotate the motor by hand for a couple of revolutions, and then lube again. Scott has the special tools for the pre-lubing process to rent, as well as the clutch alignment tool (if you can't find the GM one that is supposed to work).
Note on the clutch pictures: This is how the 'puck' style clutch is supposed to be installed. If installed per the repair manual instructions, you would see the splined 'nose' of the clutch 'disk' pointing towards the 3 fingers of the pressure plate. As it is installed, the nose faces the engine. This is how the clutch should be installed to avoid contact with the 3 fingers of the pressure plate.
Attachments
I will add some text to this as time permits.
Many thanks to everybody who has contributed their thoughts and comments to my questions and discussions. A couple of you have gone above and beyond, you know who you are!
Special thanks to Scott, at Expedition Imports, who keeps providing medicine for my Mogitis. Great parts and advice.
Still much to do, but feeling pretty good about phase I.
Justin
Many thanks to everybody who has contributed their thoughts and comments to my questions and discussions. A couple of you have gone above and beyond, you know who you are!
Special thanks to Scott, at Expedition Imports, who keeps providing medicine for my Mogitis. Great parts and advice.
Still much to do, but feeling pretty good about phase I.
Justin
Real nice job!! How is the engine performance? What are the jacks you used to lift the firebox onto the frame???
G vavra
66-404.1Doka
G vavra
66-404.1Doka
'88 U-1300L, '70 406, '78 406, '78 416 project, '82 406, '57 404, '65 404, '70 404, '68 Haflinger.
Joined
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1,852 Posts
Hi Justin,
I have thoroughly enjoyed looking at your rebuild pictures. You have done a lot of work since I was out there in December!!!
Nice job!
Bob
I have thoroughly enjoyed looking at your rebuild pictures. You have done a lot of work since I was out there in December!!!
Nice job!
Bob
Joined
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1,921 Posts
kimosaboy-
I'm very happy with the engine performance. The motor started within moments of having fuel available to it and proceeded to purr like a proverbial kitten. The motor is the good old 7:1 low compression head, stock as can be. Since I had to replace the motor anyway, I briefly entertained a high compression head, not to mention doing something with the m130 short block that came with one of the trucks. Now that I've had some time with the 404s, I'm pretty happy with the stock performance. The LC crate motor was very cost effective, not to mention a pretty 'plug and play' solution. I realize a HC head or the m130 would have been relatively simple changes (especially the head), but I didn't think the extra expense and time was worth it to me. I'm still playing with finding the optimal timing on the new motor along with the appropriate main jet for Denver's altitude and current weather conditions. At the moment, the new motor seems to like 14 degrees BTDC and 140 main jets. One of my trucks came with a MB rebuilt engine (.5mm over) that really performed well, much faster than the other Mog (the one with the bad motor, imagine that). I'd say the new motor is definitely on par with the other m180 that always struck me as being 'fast'.
A note on timing and jetting: I had read that m180s can like very different timing settings. I have certainly found this to be the case. The MB rebuilt motor was timed by the previous owner at about 22 degrees BTDC (points) with 130 main jets in it. As I said, this motor always struck me as running perfectly so I never changed these parameters. The 'bad' motor seemed to like about 18 degrees BTDC and 140 mains. As I said, the new motor seems to like 14 degrees BTDC and 140 mains.
A note on cooling systems: One of my Mogs has the old style cooling system, one has the new style. Different thermostats, radiators, and plumbing. I found that the old style cooling system was very easy to bleed (self bleeding, really) but the new style took a little bit more effort. It took a couple of sessions of 'burping' to get all the air out. With the install of the new motor I installed the fan spacer, which brings the fan closer to the radiator to improve cooling and a smaller pulley to drive the water pump/fan faster, also to improve cooling. The Mog that had the new motor put in it had the old capillary tube type temp sender/gauge which was faulty, so I replaced that with the temp gauge kit from EI. Nice little kit.
I used camper/RV jacks to remove/install the radio and fire boxes. These also came in handy for dealing with the cabs to a certain extent. I found the jacks on craigslist, trying to keep things on the cheap. One pair is rated at 800lbs each, the other at 500lbs each. The set of 4 came in around $240, a little extra with some new cable. If I had lurked a little longer on craigslist, I'm sure I could have found better deals on these. Each jack lifts/drops independently, so having a second person around to help balance things was definitely good, although I did have instances where I had to operate the 4 jacks myself and everything went well, just more running around. The jacks were great from going to a very low height (box on the ground) to high enough to drive the Mog under a box for mounting. Just wide enough to get the Mog in/out from under the box. It was kind of scary having a radio/fire box up that high in the air, but with each one of the jacks having a tripod base of one sort or another, it was pretty stable.
I'm very happy with the engine performance. The motor started within moments of having fuel available to it and proceeded to purr like a proverbial kitten. The motor is the good old 7:1 low compression head, stock as can be. Since I had to replace the motor anyway, I briefly entertained a high compression head, not to mention doing something with the m130 short block that came with one of the trucks. Now that I've had some time with the 404s, I'm pretty happy with the stock performance. The LC crate motor was very cost effective, not to mention a pretty 'plug and play' solution. I realize a HC head or the m130 would have been relatively simple changes (especially the head), but I didn't think the extra expense and time was worth it to me. I'm still playing with finding the optimal timing on the new motor along with the appropriate main jet for Denver's altitude and current weather conditions. At the moment, the new motor seems to like 14 degrees BTDC and 140 main jets. One of my trucks came with a MB rebuilt engine (.5mm over) that really performed well, much faster than the other Mog (the one with the bad motor, imagine that). I'd say the new motor is definitely on par with the other m180 that always struck me as being 'fast'.
A note on timing and jetting: I had read that m180s can like very different timing settings. I have certainly found this to be the case. The MB rebuilt motor was timed by the previous owner at about 22 degrees BTDC (points) with 130 main jets in it. As I said, this motor always struck me as running perfectly so I never changed these parameters. The 'bad' motor seemed to like about 18 degrees BTDC and 140 mains. As I said, the new motor seems to like 14 degrees BTDC and 140 mains.
A note on cooling systems: One of my Mogs has the old style cooling system, one has the new style. Different thermostats, radiators, and plumbing. I found that the old style cooling system was very easy to bleed (self bleeding, really) but the new style took a little bit more effort. It took a couple of sessions of 'burping' to get all the air out. With the install of the new motor I installed the fan spacer, which brings the fan closer to the radiator to improve cooling and a smaller pulley to drive the water pump/fan faster, also to improve cooling. The Mog that had the new motor put in it had the old capillary tube type temp sender/gauge which was faulty, so I replaced that with the temp gauge kit from EI. Nice little kit.
I used camper/RV jacks to remove/install the radio and fire boxes. These also came in handy for dealing with the cabs to a certain extent. I found the jacks on craigslist, trying to keep things on the cheap. One pair is rated at 800lbs each, the other at 500lbs each. The set of 4 came in around $240, a little extra with some new cable. If I had lurked a little longer on craigslist, I'm sure I could have found better deals on these. Each jack lifts/drops independently, so having a second person around to help balance things was definitely good, although I did have instances where I had to operate the 4 jacks myself and everything went well, just more running around. The jacks were great from going to a very low height (box on the ground) to high enough to drive the Mog under a box for mounting. Just wide enough to get the Mog in/out from under the box. It was kind of scary having a radio/fire box up that high in the air, but with each one of the jacks having a tripod base of one sort or another, it was pretty stable.
Thanks for the comments gentlemen, much appreciated!
Bob-
Things have been pretty slow with my business lately, so I decided to use that time to get the Mogs where I wanted them. Hopefully business will pick up again before too long. However, it was nice to spend some quality time with the Mogs.
Funny, since I put the fire truck together and put some paint on it, I have been getting *TONS* of attention. Way more than normal. Lately the question has been, 'is that your Pinzgauer?' or 'is that a Pinzgauer?' I'm not sure why so many people think it is a Pinz all of a sudden. I was at the hardware store yesterday and an older gentleman stopped me to ask what it was. I told him, and he of course asked about the motor. He responded, 'with that tiny little motor, you must not be able to take it off road.' I told him he might be surprised.
Bob-
Things have been pretty slow with my business lately, so I decided to use that time to get the Mogs where I wanted them. Hopefully business will pick up again before too long. However, it was nice to spend some quality time with the Mogs.
Funny, since I put the fire truck together and put some paint on it, I have been getting *TONS* of attention. Way more than normal. Lately the question has been, 'is that your Pinzgauer?' or 'is that a Pinzgauer?' I'm not sure why so many people think it is a Pinz all of a sudden. I was at the hardware store yesterday and an older gentleman stopped me to ask what it was. I told him, and he of course asked about the motor. He responded, 'with that tiny little motor, you must not be able to take it off road.' I told him he might be surprised.
A few more shots of the soft cab w/radio box. BTW, this one is going up for sale. It should be up on the Exchange soon, I've also got it on craigslist locally. Contact me off list if you have any questions.
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Well, I sold the soft cab last night to a very enthusiastic younger gentleman who was looking for a Unimog that he could take camping. I had a lot of interest in the truck, but nobody really serious. This kid took about 3 weeks to make up his mind, checking out various Unimogs along the Front Range. It is a really great truck and I'll miss it. I pointed the guy to our vendors and the forums, so hopefully he'll join us at some point.
Although I would love to have a fleet of Unimogs, it is kind of nice to just have one to focus my attention on. Given my time constraints and limited space at the moment, it all works out really well.
Although I would love to have a fleet of Unimogs, it is kind of nice to just have one to focus my attention on. Given my time constraints and limited space at the moment, it all works out really well.
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