Mercedes-Benz Forum banner

61 - 80 of 111 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
682 Posts
as i said, the microfish states both types of gasket thats how it was for my 103 amg parts. i knew mertruc would sort it for you.
 

·
Registered
E36 AMG & C36 AMG
Joined
·
135 Posts
e36 head gasket

i have recently found out that mercedes has not updated the epc on my e36 after orringinally leaving the factory as a e320 just before it went to affalterbach. since amg was a seperate tunning company at that time. so when i give my chassis no. to mercedes they pull up the data card which states all the parts for an e320.

i found this out by changing the cats and ordering a new exhaust gasket, when i got home and compared the gasket it was a lot smaller than the one i took off. then returning to mercedes and spending about an hour with the technician we both relaised this and has now confirmed that i have the worng head gasket in the car! :mad: just like rodnex said the part number for the amg gasket is correct with the 91mm bore.

dont know how long this gasket will last since its 1.1mm smaller than bore size, after doing some research i now know why the car seems powerfull since this has given more compression! some tuners do this for this reason but usually not going over 0.5mm smaller than bore size.

well i have done alsmost 2000 mile in the car, i wouldnt say driving it soft either! and the gasket is absolutly fine at the moment. just going to have to keep checking it!

also like nick.ged suspected that may be the head gasket has been changed before with the wrong gasket, this has definetly confirmed this! where the previous owner/owners must have changed the gasket to fix the oil leak and replcing it with the wrong gasket! since mercedes anywhere in the country state that these are correct parts for your car when the chassis no. is given. abosolutly not true dont belive them!! the amg head gasket is £84 where the e320 is £69 not much difference in price! cant belive it!!

thanks everyone for leading me to the correct info. for my e36

one last thing is when the head gasket failed coolant was going through the system and out through the exhaust. i have now replaced the cats, would this have damaged the baffle or any baffles as well from mid section and back box? as there is still a strange sound from exhaust its not quite right! but may be down to not having the correct air induction pipe installed! this is also off the e320 :( not as fat! but im checking the spark plugs which are brown grey. but comparing them to a c36 sparks, the c36 prongs are light coloured grey which are burning a lot leaner! i suspect that mine should be the same!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
682 Posts
you have a restricted inlet tract, wich must make the car run richer(darker plug colour)
water will probbably not damage cats, exausts all have water in them when engine is first started. often see it coming out of cars exausts in the morning on way to work.

get the correct parts fitted when you can. good luck
 

·
Registered
83 500SEC, 84 300TD, 86 190E 5.0 M113, 87 300D, 01 CLK55, 02 C32, 02 C320T, 03 C320T4, 03 E55
Joined
·
2,600 Posts
I stumbled across this thread by accident and is quite a good read! MB's EPC still lists the incorrect information for the C36 models as well, showing the C280/E320 headgasket as correct for the AMG version!
 

·
Registered
450, 350 & 280 SLC (W107), 280TE (W123), C36 AMG (W202), Brabus B6S (W210)
Joined
·
107 Posts
I stumbled across this thread by accident and is quite a good read! MB's EPC still lists the incorrect information for the C36 models as well, showing the C280/E320 headgasket as correct for the AMG version!
Had to change headgasket recently. It was done in MB center in Germany that deals with specific MB models. And they've told me that there are no more original headgasket available for this 3,6 engine, so that's why all catalogues now shows 3,2l part. Actually they have to be slightly different, but there were problems in production (and, as engines are rare enough, small demand), so now there is alternative manufacturer for 3,6 engine headgasket, almost half price of original. I have to ask once more, to find out manufacturer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
682 Posts
potton make performance headgaskets, try them
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Head gasket

price is ok, genadswali

but the brabus engines are very delicate because of the big bore:

And iwhen you get problems with the cylinder head gasket
- you can take only brabus - which costs about 800€
and problems are preprogrammed!
Hi again :thumbsup:
I had never had any problems like I said with the big bore of this brabus.
But I had to get to the bottom of an oil cunsuming problem of my engine :(
So I toke it apart and found all the 2nd pistons rings to be broken into about 10-15 pieces on ALL 6 pistons, but all the other pistons rings were fine, so there was nothing to see on the compresion test.

But anyway I was wondering what could have caused this 2nd pistons rings falure :confused: leaving the oil hanging on the cylinder wall upon piston movements, again leaving the oil to be burned away under detonation.

But the pison rings lands was also realy bad on the Kolben Schmith pistons that brabus used at the time.

So I had to go with new pitons and raise the engine bore a bit.
But sp far the original engine bore at 92,25mm wich is the original bore has been no problem at all, but I think that the piston ring falure was due to the former owner using low octane fuels that made the engine knocking, damaging the pistons rings.

So did the whole thing, new engine bore at 92,35mm the stroke is measured to 90,00mm and I had no other visual problems in the engine at all else.
The cylinder wall was acturely also very finde but looked like rehoned at some point, maybee becuase the piton rings had been changed once before but with bad piston ring land they ofcause will brake again.
My theory at least.

So I have now the Rebored M103 Block brabus used for the M104 3.6-24 to 92,35mm. and redone the head with new valve seats and all the other work usual done at the engineer shop.

I ordered forged JE pistons with forged performance H conrods as I also see the standart mercedes rods to be very heavy for the rpm´s and the long stroke this angine has.
So the engine could defently need all the help in the world to make the rotating mass lighter.

But to my main question.

What head gasket to use with this brabus engine M104.980 :confused:
I know brabus make them if you drop 800Euro but thats insane :eek:

The former dealer that had to change the head gakset and rings at some point told me that he just went to use an AMG head gasket with the same 92mm. diameter, and I have measured this old head gasket and it IS realy 92mm. but could this realy be a AMG head gasket then :confused: becuase this is far more cheap than bying the brabus one with the preprogrammed problems :surrender:
I was informed by Mercedes here that deals with brabus that the order number for the brabus 3.6-24 Valve head gasket is 00062444 I gues that is the brabus order number

What to do here, please advice :bowdown:
 

Attachments

·
Registered
360TE AMG; 500E
Joined
·
112 Posts
Had to change headgasket recently. It was done in MB center in Germany that deals with specific MB models. And they've told me that there are no more original headgasket available for this 3,6 engine, so that's why all catalogues now shows 3,2l part. Actually they have to be slightly different, but there were problems in production (and, as engines are rare enough, small demand), so now there is alternative manufacturer for 3,6 engine headgasket, almost half price of original. I have to ask once more, to find out manufacturer.
Did you ever find out the alternative manufacturer for the 3,6 headgasket ?

FWIW, in 2010 I just ordered the HWA AMG headgasket and received it in about 3-days.

:) neil
 

·
Registered
2008 E350 4M, 2016 Audi Allroad, 2019 Audi Q5
Joined
·
5,447 Posts
I wonder what the work would be to use the 3.6 M104 with the K-Jet system. Since the early CE's had this system (albeit 3.2)...are there any differences between the 103 K-Jet and the 104 K-Jet or would it be a straight bolt in for the most part?
 

·
Registered
1989 Brabus 3.6
Joined
·
36 Posts
Hi again :thumbsup:
I had never had any problems like I said with the big bore of this brabus.
But I had to get to the bottom of an oil cunsuming problem of my engine :(
So I toke it apart and found all the 2nd pistons rings to be broken into about 10-15 pieces on ALL 6 pistons, but all the other pistons rings were fine, so there was nothing to see on the compresion test.

But anyway I was wondering what could have caused this 2nd pistons rings falure :confused: leaving the oil hanging on the cylinder wall upon piston movements, again leaving the oil to be burned away under detonation.

But the pison rings lands was also realy bad on the Kolben Schmith pistons that brabus used at the time.

So I had to go with new pitons and raise the engine bore a bit.
But sp far the original engine bore at 92,25mm wich is the original bore has been no problem at all, but I think that the piston ring falure was due to the former owner using low octane fuels that made the engine knocking, damaging the pistons rings.

So did the whole thing, new engine bore at 92,35mm the stroke is measured to 90,00mm and I had no other visual problems in the engine at all else.
The cylinder wall was acturely also very finde but looked like rehoned at some point, maybee becuase the piton rings had been changed once before but with bad piston ring land they ofcause will brake again.
My theory at least.

So I have now the Rebored M103 Block brabus used for the M104 3.6-24 to 92,35mm. and redone the head with new valve seats and all the other work usual done at the engineer shop.

I ordered forged JE pistons with forged performance H conrods as I also see the standart mercedes rods to be very heavy for the rpm´s and the long stroke this angine has.
So the engine could defently need all the help in the world to make the rotating mass lighter.

But to my main question.

What head gasket to use with this brabus engine M104.980 :confused:
I know brabus make them if you drop 800Euro but thats insane :eek:

The former dealer that had to change the head gakset and rings at some point told me that he just went to use an AMG head gasket with the same 92mm. diameter, and I have measured this old head gasket and it IS realy 92mm. but could this realy be a AMG head gasket then :confused: becuase this is far more cheap than bying the brabus one with the preprogrammed problems :surrender:
I was informed by Mercedes here that deals with brabus that the order number for the brabus 3.6-24 Valve head gasket is 00062444 I gues that is the brabus order number

What to do here, please advice :bowdown:
What did you do in the end? I have had issues with headgaskets on my M103 Brabus 3.6. I had pumpish make me a MLS one but alas is seeps water. I will be going to Brabus and ponying up the cash.
 

·
Registered
E36 AMG & C36 AMG
Joined
·
135 Posts
I wonder what the work would be to use the 3.6 M104 with the K-Jet system. Since the early CE's had this system (albeit 3.2)...are there any differences between the 103 K-Jet and the 104 K-Jet or would it be a straight bolt in for the most part?
yes exactly the same! but if you gonna drop the m104 (3.6) engine in, i think its best to change everything else too!

i noticed that my 3.6 m104 engines produce about the same fuel economy as my old 300E 24v used too! (3 liter k-jetronic m104).

and a lot more power :)
 

·
Registered
E36 AMG & C36 AMG
Joined
·
135 Posts
did u sort out the amg head gasket after? it is 92mm but i used the 91mm one in my amg m104. it was a complete mistake!!! but found out later it was the wrong one! but has never let me down! that's almost 2 years ago! got away with it since the bore of the m104 amg is 91mm. i got the normal e320 gasket instead of the e36. normal e320 block is 90mm bore.. but as i said, hasn't caused any problems! we will see 50k miles later :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
When i did my rebuilt of the whole engine, I used the BRABUS 3.6-24 head gasket that is insanely costly around 660 Euro´s and then it is the old type without the reinforced improvements :(
But I was close to go for the AMG 3.6 headgasket as this was used in my car before my rebuilt, and that never gave anyproblem.

I have run the car for about 5000 Km. now and there are no oil coming out of the engine at any places.
Even the front of the engine is totaly clean and oil free :) and that is almost dead sure that most of the cars are covered in oil there.

I compared the brabus head gasket with the old AMG HWA one.
The brabus deffently have a bigger bore than the AMG.

I can not feel any loss of power or lower compresion.
But I also did a rebuilt of my cylinder head, so that was machined as litle as it could be.
The same with the Engine blok, that was also machined on the top, to make sure the surface was 100% flat.

I also got the blok rebored to 92.35mm and boght new forged pistons and rods from JE-Pistons.

The engine has not used any oil at all, for the last 5000 Km. thats amazing.

The pistons came with some additional option I chose, among the black coating, weight reduced and ligher and stronger wrist pins.

The engine runs very smoth.

At the beginning I had a huge oil leak, I could not find out were it came from, until I noticed that the only place were oil can leak out from the midle of the engine blok at the left side were the waterpunp are located is from the oil dip stick.
I forgot to place the O-ring seal on the deep stick guide tube.
So oil was leaking up from the bottom of the engine, but luckily that was an easy fix.

Only thing I had troble with was the timing of the engine, i know that the car runs with modified inlet and outlet cams, and the mechanic that hepled me disassabled the engine diden´t make any mark on the chain or cams...

But it seams like it should be adjusted just like the orginal ones.
It runs fine "the same" this way, huge low down grunt, and still high output at high revs :)

I guess I can rebuilt a M104 engine with KE-Jettronic now :eek:) amazing stuff you learn in that adventure, and then it is a brabus as well :eek:) very fun job doing.
Everything is new, so I can deffently write 0 Km for the engine when it was done. :)
Exept for the cams :eek:)
 

Attachments

·
Registered
W124 300TD//W124 300CE
Joined
·
33 Posts
Hello from Spain,.
I founded a w124 3.6 24v brabus on alittle workshop.And the man told me that if i want he can sold me the car only 2.000 euro.
The car have 4 piston alcon brakes,blistein b6,and some upgrades.
Also the engine is OK.
But the problem is that there is no gear box....
I.m thinking on buying all the car,and put all int mi w124 300 ce...
But i don´t know what type of gear box is the best for that engine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
The gearboks that many of Them Came out with was the 5 trin automatic gearboks that only the 6 cyl gasoline cars was offered with.

But it could also been born with a 5 trin manual dog leged gearboks.

Check out the cars win number at the local Mercedes dealer, they Can tell you what the car was born with.
Or at the rusian win identification site.

But if it was born with the 5 speed automatic, then you should not use a 4 speed auto.
The Best gearboks for This car is the 5 speed auto or manual.
The 4 speed simply Cant keep the revs up whereas the cam are advanced after a gear change.
This is realy noticeable when the car change from 3 into 4th gear.
This is aldo the case with the standart 300E-24
Right after 3rd the engine revs Fall to about 1000 rpm's power than whereas the cam are in advanced position. And thatchers is very much noticable.
You feel it like the car in 2-4 sec. are running with 25-35hp less, until its hitting around 5000 rpm's
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
What did you do in the end? I have had issues with headgaskets on my M103 Brabus 3.6. I had pumpish make me a MLS one but alas is seeps water. I will be going to Brabus and ponying up the cash.
After about only 10.000 Km. my Brabus sudently began to seep water as well to cyl. 4 and 5
I acturaly had a broken ring on the gasket :eek:
So I used 3 Hours to rip apart the engine and ended up standing with the Cyl Head, Im getting quit qick and goog at this engine :rolleyes:
But the problem is realy that the gasket is just TO small betwin the cylinders.

But one important clue in all this for me was that mine Brabus when I bought it used from the dealer in 2006 was that he told me that the head gasket was changed to an AMG gasket.

NOW i know WHY that was... :D the former owner must have had the same problem over and over again, and finaly they tried to get rid of this problem by using the E 36 AMG head gasket with the HWA 104 016 01 20 number.

So I went to Mercedes after reading this very good and infoamative threat more than 3 times :D
Then I ask for this spicific AMG Head gasket number.
The Technitian triyed over and over again, but he couln´d find it by searching.
So he asked for the Vin number and then I said that would be totaly wrong because I KNOW from this threat that I then would get the wrong Headgasket for sure.

But I had already looked it up from home by EPC-Net my self, so what you have to do if you go to a Mercedes dealer and ask for this AMG head Gasket is this:

Tell them directly that you need an AMG Head gasket for a E or C 36 AMG.
Tell them that it can not be directly seached/looked up by spare part number as this is under a special kategori within the system and has to be looked up manual step by step and not by Vin number.
Tell them to go by EPC in the top kategori be these steps:

1. Car
2. M - Engine
3. 104.980 M 104 (this is for my engine, use your own engine number)
4. Engine Housing
5. This is the important part ! go to (77081 - AMG ENGINE PARTS M104)
6. SA Sequence number (Choose your specific AMG engine type, they are ALL there)
7. After this you get the list up, and the AMG Head gasket is ITEM Nr. 27 :D

And THEN they can order it for sure without problems ;)

I just got mine to day, so im so happy now.
I know now this head gasket CAN be orderet if you TELL them how to do it :thumbsup:
And i also know that I again will get a perfect headgasket that will last AND is reinforced :bowdown:
Then it is a complete Joy to own a Brabus 3.6-24 when you have all the knowlage a have and then knows what to do, but damn it toke a while and some money to earn that experience and to achieve a flawless BRABUS 3.6-24

So a very god point to all your BRABUS 3.6 owners, NEVER go with the Brabus head gasket for the insanly 660 Euro, always go with the AMG 3.6 Headgasket as this is the most perfect Gasket to this Bore of 3.6 of any M103/M104 engine :thumbsup:
It is also so much cheaper than the brabus headgasket.

Here are some pictures of my new HWA 104 016 01 20 AMG Headgasket :thumbsup:
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
a bit more info on the 36 AMG engine

I just found some more info on the 36 AMG engine head gasket in detail.

The info is found by a C class C36 side.
But the engines are the same in W124, W202 and W210, with only a smal difference in the air filter boxes, but these are all mentioned in the Mercedes EPC system. even for the old (300E-24 3.4 AMG)

And one very easy point to find out if your car has the AMG or the Odinary Head gasket (Even if if your engine is not opened), is by counting the identification recesses that are marked in one of this dokuments as "c"
You can gently put a small very thin screwdriver along the side of the engine between the cylinder head and the crankcase.
Then you will feel when the screwdriver jumps in and out of the recesses.

If you have 1 Recesses you are looking at an M103 Ordinary OEM head Gasket.
If you have 2 Recesses you are looking at an M104.98 OEM head Gasket. (The Old 3.0-24 - M104 with CIS and Mechcancal inj.)
If you have 3 Recesses you are looking at an M104.99/4 OEM head Gasket. (The New 2.8/3.2 M104 Engine with HFM and Electronic Inj.)
If you have 4 Recesses you are looking at an M104 AMG OEM head Gasket with bigger gasket hole (92,1mm) for the biggere 3.4 AMG and 36 AMG bore of 91,5mm

There are no more questions regarding what ANY 3.4 or 36 AMG should have as a head gasket.
As they are born with the biggere bore of 91,5mm the head gasket must therefore be biggere 92,1mm as showned in these ducuments.
As you can see Mercedes wrote the gasket diameter "D" is 0,5mm lager than the bore of the cylinder.
The AMG is then 0,6mm larger, but the gasket hole should never be smaller than the bore of the cylinder as it is the case if you mistakenly use the Ordinary M104 Head gasket on an 3.4 or 36 AMG engine

Regarding the M103 AMG i couldt find any thing on how many recesses these have, I will guess it is the same "1" as the org.
Or might be 2 or even 4, but that will remain a question until someone pull a M103 AMG gasket at their dealer
 

Attachments

·
Registered
1987, 124 AMG 300e
Joined
·
10 Posts
Hi everyone!
Appreciate your expertise and advice on my ongoing project.
A few months ago I purchased 124 ‘87 sedan from Japan, which was fitted with a plenty of AMG options, excluding engine mods and and seats (could be a few more I do not know).
The car is in good condition except for painting, destroyed by sun.

While the car is waiting for repaint first, I decided to upgrade it with AMG 103 motor. Luckily I found a couple in Russia (one within a car, another spare) and bought them.

The first motor is quite used - mileage is shown on dash is around 221 000 km. Identified problems with it are: a couple of rocker arms were replaced with standard ones including lifters; quite low oil pressure when hot - just 1.5 bar. Need to decide what to do with it. Any info I need to know before I open it? What AMG parts I will need to find to repair it? I read somewhere that lifters can be used from early 2.0 M102 and rocker arms can be made from standard M103 ones. Any thoughts on this, please

While I was thinking on what to do with it, I found another one in excellent condition with 52 000 km only

The questions are:
- do you think it is worth repairing engine #1? Where to get rocker arms and lifters? Or just spare it?
- Engine #2 sticker says it is cat version, while I do not have catalyzer - is it fine to drive?
- there are stamps on motor heads of engines done by AMG. # 1 has 334+B90+17. #2 has 190+B90+25. What does it mean? I guess B90 stand for bore 90mm. The others?

Any other comments are very welcomed
 
61 - 80 of 111 Posts
Top