Mercedes-Benz Forum banner

1 - 20 of 111 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
what is difference of 3.6 (AMG) & 3.6(Brabus) engines?
The 3.6 24V AMG M104 was rated at 276 horsepower (206 kW) at 5,750 rpm and 284 foot-pounds force (385 N·m) of torque at 4,000 rpm using the HFM engine
0-100km/h 7.0-7.2sec.
anyone know what's 3.6 (Brabus) specifications?
which is faster?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
682 Posts
both engines can be stroked out to 3.6 using the 350 turbo desil crank. it will fit in both 103 and 104 engines, but chickens teeth are more common!
the brabus engine you are showing is a 103.


i think the brabus engine you have shown will be more powerfull than the amg one because the 3.6 amg 104, that was in the e36, was not a true amg modded engine, what i mean by that is that the e36 was a production car made by mercedes to selibrate the union of the companys, and for a while after that, amg's lost the edge, brabus was far in front at this point, because they were still building specials at massive extra cost.
both are ultra cool, but i think the brabus is much rarer, hopefully someone with more info will post the next stage for you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Ive had a manual Brabus 3.6 m103 and it was quick but the engines are very unreliable, I personally know of 2 people in the UK with the brabus m103 engine and neither of them are running correctly. Ive now got 2 e36's, and they are slightly faster, and hvae much better low end response.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
In the Georgia 1991 W124 coupe 3.6 brabus cost 4000$
here it is





it runs very well
how do you like price ?
 

·
Registered
E36T AMG, 500GE
Joined
·
123 Posts
price is ok, genadswali

but the brabus engines are very delicate because of the big bore:

bore 92,0 x stroke 90,0
245 HP @ 5750
360 Nm @ 4300

And iwhen you get problems with the cylinder head gasket
- you can take only brabus - which costs about 800€
and problems are preprogrammed!

This engine is an old 12V M103 engine.
It is slower as 24V M104 AMG.
And the torque is not that high and not in that wide rpm-range.
but is has more power than usual 320CE.




@nick.ged:

WTF? The M104 E36 was a full AMG engine.
There were done a lot of changes to the usual M104.
It was a big success.

bore 91 x stroke 92,4

And with a M104 E36 AMG you have very nice power:
272 HP @ 5750
300 Nm up from 1500 rpm!
350 Nm between 2800-5300 rpm!
385 Nm @ 3750-4500

The Brabus engines were really bad at the time.
The only good aftermarket modifications were done by Oettinger and Carlsson.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
682 Posts
i was under the impression that prior to 1994, all amg engines were merc engines removed from the supplied cars and rebuilt by amg, in germany at there specialised engine shop. after 1994 mercedes built the amg engines along side there std engines and production rules applied, where as brabus still built bespoke engines? that made MORE POWER wich was what the original question was about? if not then i appologise, that was just the impression i had. i wasnt aware that the 3.6 was overbored above std, sorry for the mistake.

however;

common knowledge is that high tuned engines are usuly delicate and neded careful, regular servises.

the headgasket on my car is amg, it was £300 std 103 gaskets are £40.

i also wouldnt be supprised if the two 3.6 engines that dont run right are due to kjet problems or incorrect servising!
dont forget the later 104 has a much better fule delivery system, and better ignition timeing wich is where power is made and lost..........

103 is stronger than 104, ask pumpish, he doesnt use 104 in his 800bhp turbos...

and brabus 3.6 only makes 245? if thats correct i was way off, because the 103 12v 320ce made exactaly 245 from 103 engine with "just" 104 crank, upped compression ratio and head and cam modds, so brabus were rubbish, unless they, like amg at the time, charged for everything seperatly and the person that had the engine you state, only did half a job?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
682 Posts

·
Registered
E36T AMG, 500GE
Joined
·
123 Posts
The M103 E32 AMG had this specs:

90,0 x 84,0
compression ratio: 9,2
234 HP @ 5750
305 @ 4500





The 300CE 36 Brabus doesnt have 300 hp
"the last owner claimed 300 hp, though we haven't verified that on a dynomometer"



And you compare an M117 Hammer with a Brabus,
which was built some years later on a M119 engine?
that's kindergarten...



believe it or not
the brabus M103 and M104 (285hp @ 6300 rpm) engines were not perfect.
too big bore, normal stroke.
they ate headgaskets like hell.

I have a E36AMG with 210.000 Miles!
Without any engine failure...

And remember, we do not speak about supercharged 800hp cars.

naturally aspirated engines - M104 is better than M103
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
682 Posts
the compressinon ratio in my 320ce widebody was deffinatly 10.5 to 1, i had it checked with a pippette. the bhp stated in the press on relece was 245. i think the 234 was from 1988 in the 190e 3.2

check post 29 on this thread, fourth photocopyed page down

http://forum.mbworld.org/forums/mercedes-vehicles/254355-1987-300e-3-2-amg.html

1987 300E 3.2 AMG - MBWorld.org Forums

it has a photocopy of an original mercedes text book with the specs for the 124 engine modds, you will plainly see stage 3 is 320 with245 bhp.

enought he said, she said. boring.
 

·
Registered
E36T AMG, 500GE
Joined
·
123 Posts
ah, ok you have a stage 3 tuned M103.

such tuning was very rare

thought we spoke about "common" tunings



but anyway, the Brabus M103 3.6 offered "only" 245hp, too.
but due to the longer stroke the engine has much more torque.

and as a german engineer said:
"with horsepowers you can sell a car,
with torque you win a race"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Having owned both, the Brabus was a lot of fun as it was manual. The Brabus I had was rated as 285 bhp, but back to back I found the E36 quicker. Ive driven 3 E36's and all 3 of them drive different to each other, the first one felt so slow it was the same as my e320, so I walked away disappointed. But the 2 which I have now go like stink.
Im glad i sold the brabus when I did, a friend of mine has had 3 head gaskets in less than 2000 miles on his. The difference for me is that I could use the E36 daily and not have to worry about things going wrong. The E36 coupe is rated at 7 seconds, but its quicker than my Porsche BoxsterS which is rated at 6.3 seconds.

As for the modifications on the amg engine:
A CNC'd cyclinder head was used in place of the forged one on the stock engine
CNC's pistons
350 SDL crankshaft
Different Cams

Its a shame the con rods were not uprated, would have been good to have H section rods. Ive looked into getting custom rods made up for a twin turbo conversion. The only thing is my compression ratio is 11:1, and Im told it should be around 9:1 for turbo charging. But in doing this Ill be losing a fair amount of torque, hence my dilema.
 

·
Registered
E36T AMG, 500GE
Joined
·
123 Posts
and there are some more modifications on the E36 to E320:

-piston-oilcooling
-bigger intake tube
-amg head gasket

and as I know
the con rods were modified, too

and only the inlet-camshaft were different from stock E320

that is my knowledge


BTW: Was the Brabus with a stock manual gearbox?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
682 Posts
i would imagine the manual box in the brabus was the getrag dogleg box, long input shaft type. commonly foud in 190e cosworth 2.3 and 2.5 16v.

i had short input twin mass flywheel on mine to begin with, and the 245 bhp killed it (or was it my driving???). sinse turbo convertion ive fitted getrag and single mass flywheel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
682 Posts
on the subject of h beam rods, i had a set made, thats why i had the comp ratio mesured, so we could work out what lenght to make them. if you tell me how long you want them, i may be able to get another set. and also, turbo technics used to machine the std rods to shorten them to lower the comp ratio, you could look at that option also. the piston design, with short skirts makes piston mods undesirable to achive the same aim by the way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
The Brabus was a dogleg box, and from what I understand it was like this when it left brabus.

Back to the rods, I did look into modifying the rods, but IMO they are not the best design, the oil feed runnning through the centre of the rod is the reason they snap. Yes I too looked at taking a little off the top of the piston and again, there is not enough material there.

Here are some photos of my project, it was a donor car, the plan was to rebuild the engine, fit the turbos and retro fit the 5sp auto box to my other e320:



















After doing all that I found a chap breaking a E36 w124. I managed to get all the wiring with the engine, gerabox, brakes, diff and prop. And typically after the conversion was done I found a 1 owner w124 e36 for sale and had to have that too.

The plan is to twin turbo the converted one, as its a car that Ill keep forever. Ive got one of the Hughes kits for the m104 3.2 tucked away in a safe place.

Here is the car the turbos are destined for:

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
682 Posts
nice. you are uk then?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
682 Posts
my engine was exactly the same colour inside when i split it at 125000 miles the cylinder head and the oilpan oil pump, everything was the same colour.
 
1 - 20 of 111 Posts
Top