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1994 s600 coupe
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Discussion Starter #21
at low/midrange rpm as much as 15HP difference between various box type mufflers on the dyno.
that's 15 relatively cheap horsepower by bolting on a set of free flowing mufflers
the vortex and glasspacks will add even more than that, much more freeflowing.

 

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1994 s600 coupe
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Discussion Starter #22
some interesting tests on flow, restriction from a flow bench test
as you can see a straight pipe flows like gangbusters
a 2.5" inlet/outlet diameter Hooker brand Max Flow muffler is basically a straight pipe equivalent flowing muffler.

2"
2" Straight Pipe..........................................283 CFM

2 ¼”
2 ¼” Straight Pipe.......................................365 CFM
2 ¼” Inlet/outlet Maremount Cherrybomb Vortex.. 298 CFM
2 ¼” Glasspack (no louvers inside)................274 CFM
2 ¼” Tail Pipe (typical passenger car)............268 CFM
2 ¼” Inlet/outlet Thrush CVX.........................260 CFM
2 ¼” Inlet/2 ½” Outlet Cherry Bomb Turbo......249 CFM
2 ¼” Cherry Bomb.......................................239 CFM
2 ¼” Inlet/outlet California Turbo.......................229 CFM
2 ¼” Inlet/outlet Flowmaster (3 chamber).........229 CFM
2 ¼” Inlet/Dual 2" Outlets (used in OEM style Dual Exhaust)... 183 CFM
2 ¼” Inlet/2 ½” Outlet Maremount Super C (stock type)... 149 CFM
2 ¼” inlet/outlet round glasspack (with inward punched louvers) (installed in reverse direction....... 141 CFM
2 ¼” inlet/outlet round glasspack (with inward punched louvers)....... 133 CFM


2 ½”
2 ½” Straight Pipe...........................................521 CFM
2 ½” Inlet/Outlet Hooker Max Flow.....................521 CFM
2 ½” Inlet/Outlet Dynomax Ultraflow Bullet.......512 CFM
2 ½” Center Inlet/offset Outlet Borla Turbo.........373 CFM
2 ½” Inlet/Outlet Hooker Aerochamber...............324 CFM
2 ½” Inlet/Outlet Maremount Cherry Bomb........298 CFM
2 ½” Cherry Bomb ..........................................294 CFM
2 ½” Inlet/Outlet Magnaflow.............................284 CFM
2 ½” Inlet/Outlet Dynomax Superturbo..............268 CFM
2 ½” Inlet/Outlet Gibson Superflow...................267 CFM
2 ½” Inlet/Outlet Flowmaster (2 Chamber).........249 CFM
 

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1994 s600 coupe
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Discussion Starter #23
the stock MB S600 M120 V12 exhaust pipe diameter was pretty darned generous....
I measured the front resonator pipe diameter at 2-3/8" I.D.
that's an exhaust i.d. capable of flowing around 435 cfm
a Vortex may be overkill because it has capability beyond what the open pipe can even flow.
sure would be interesting to try a few different ones....
 

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1994 s600 coupe
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Discussion Starter #24
the V12 could get by with any of the middle 3 mufflers...the Vortex is overkill, the turbo will choke the engine off some.
the Pro would be the best match going by cfm, but it's also the loudest !
2624919
 

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'95 S600
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Not sure i see the point in most of this myself, these cars aren't heavily strangled and are far better engineered than old american bricks. Every higher end German car and other well designed cars with a N\A engine ive see dyno'd gained very little (like a few hp) from any exhaust modification after the manifolds. Quality equal length headers have the greatest gains by far and anything else is a waste of money for these cars from a performance point.
 

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Discussion Starter #27 (Edited)
that's a misconception...the W140 was plagued with engineering fk-ups. multitudes of them. that's why they cost $135,000 new, but you can buy one for a paltry $1500 now like mine. I know where there's another for only $3500 right now.
yet those American bricks you speak of sell for $450,000 at Barrett Jackson. and they'd suck the headlights out of a W140 no problem, they make more HP.
W140 has it's good traits such as handling, but a lot of the equipment in it, was built for vanity price point sales, not because it was well engineered. do you really need a remote control rear view mirror, you can reach with your hand anyway and adjust. the knob to adjust the mirror is actually further away than the mirror itself. how is that well engineered ? how is biodegradable wires that fall apart and send the car to the scrapyard well engineered ?
I'm saying this as a fan of the W140, but more like a doctor who's been treating a sick patient for the past year, nursing it back to health, and undoing a lot of the fk-ups that were engineered into it.
YES the W140 was heavily burdened with emissions controls, 2 catalytic converters and 2 huge heavy mufflers, choked the exhaust. dual EGR valves choked the intake with exhaust gases that diluted the charge and carboned up the intake manifold. see pics of the backside of my throttle bodies when I removed them. and an ASR system robbed 100-150HP just because they were too cheap ? to put a positraction locking rear axle in the car, so they took away power so the single track rear tire didn't spin, instead of putting power to BOTH rear tires and getting more traction on the ground for all the power from the start. they cut some major corners, which is why the entire engineering staff was fired at MB afterwards for the W140.
some things on the car are very well engineered, but many are not. like plastic splash guards under the car, and plastic rocker panels, and plastic front inner fenderwells, on a $135k car ? high end glass headlights w/wipers, with rear plastic tail lights that look like they came from a low end Ford or Dodge. aluminum heat shields under the car, that fall off because the bolts holding them on rot through the aluminum, due to chemical reaction between the metals.
the bundle of vacuum hoses in these cars behind the dash and throughout the doors, trunk, etc. is a nightmare waiting to happen with age, once that all starts leaking, all the power options will start acting up. there has to be miles of vacuum lines on the car. the sunroof on my car doensn't open, it's stuck closed. the rear active suspension has a history of being troublesome, and very expensive to replace/repair.
for the sake of setting the record straight, I'll post all the 3 year warranty repairs done to my car when it was new, and it is a big eye opener as to the true quality level of the car. as owners of these cars trying to preserve them, we really have our work cut out for us. I'm saying this as a person who likes the car and would like to keep it. but I'm not going to get starry-eyed and stretch the truth about how good the car is, just state the facts. the best feature of the car is the exotic V12 engine, and handling. the front end looks sporty and rakish, but the back end looks like it was designed by a different team than the front- the back end is squared off and boxy.
and the car is HEAVY. 4900 lb. for a fully loaded S600C coupe 2-door. that extra lard steals some of the pizzaz from the V12 engine. as much as the engine is lauded for its torque, the rating is 435 foot pounds...10 foot pounds less than the standard 1967-70 Pontiac 400cid 6.6 liter engine that was carbureted with points ignition and single cam in block, and was available in cars that weighed 3300 to 4000 lb. so they had more torque, and less weight, 50 years ago. those same car are selling for $25,000-$100,000 range today routinely. calling them bricks is throwing stones from a glass house. they were faster, sportier, more reliable, easier/cheaper to fix, and a much better long term investment. if they're a brick, the W140 is a tired old blue whale...
let's end by saying, I take a lot of schit from my friends, telling me sell the car, handing me for sale signs, after they see and hear how much work I had to put into it. a few times early on I doubted my own common sense for going down this road in the first place. but eventually I got it ironed out, after much time, expense. don't anyone kid yourself these are not easy cars to repair, maintain, restore, or keep running. all the maintenance and repair costs are somewhat high, parts difficult to find at times, very time consuming, if not all consuming, and you need to research and understand this complex car first, before you repair it. that in itself is a major undertaking.
 

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My post was in regards to the actual exhaust system which is made to last and does it job as intended. I don't buy the whole "all emission controls are bad line", i don't like EGR's as reasons you state but nothing wrong with a properly designed functioning cat converter and muffler and removing them for no good reason is stupid in my book, performance benefits are nothing as i stated.

Yes i agree completely these have have plenty of bad engineering as ive seen and posted before.
The actual M120 long block is very solid and the main reason i like the car, very few engines that went direct into supercars. I originally bought the car of my brother who was going overseas and needed the money and while i always admired the V12 engine the chassis never suited my style or driving or NZ, eg a 7 series BMW for example feels like it weights 500kg less and handles much nicer than a W140 due to the driving dynamics

The environment the car has lived in has the greatest influence in my book my old car is in very good condition in regards to rubbers and plastics etc because it was stored properly in a temperate environment. Late 80's and early 90's is when a lot of manufactures started to use plastics for obvious reasons, engine bay plastics on the W140 aren't too bad compared to a lot modern cars with more greater recycled content in them making them almost like fibreglass.

I think you took me saying 'brick' as an insult which it wasn't, id never own one myself as they aren't my type of ride but i respect the qualities that they have. You can compared old American cars with as W140 but its largely pointless given both were built for very different purposes, W140 was a showcase of the best Mercedes could build at the time. Ive always said Germans could design a basic reliable car if they wanted but are usually the pioneers in regards to progressing automotive features, for better or worse its in their blood.

Obviously American car history, people growing up with American cars, having way more available is going make them far more popular and sort after than a expensive outdated German luxury barge. Most popular cars here in NZ are Japanese by a wide margin and performance\reliably wise beat everything else.

End of the day most people don't really care about cars for anything other than A>B, that's why the Toyota Corolla is the best selling car in the world.
 

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Discussion Starter #29 (Edited)
taking emissions off an old car isn't a "line" of bs as you imply.
that's how cars were MADE, from the first car invented by MB,
until around 1973, when emissions laws were forced upon, foisted upon the US public.
and later, upon the entire world !
the problem isn't that cars are too dirty environmentally...
it's that the powers that be, put too many people on top of each other in cities,
thereby concentrating all the emissions on one spot.
imagine if everyone on your street where you live, used YOUR bathroom everyday,
instead of their own.
that's the problem. so they half-assedly patch the issue, with emissions controls,
that rob the very power the engine was supposed to make.
it's a big picture issue, it's not the car itself. it's the concentration of cars in one area.
and cities in general, huge cities with millions of people living on top of each other, literally...
are a bad idea.
the emissions problem is just a side effect result, of too much rampant urban development.
the car will run a lot better, smoother, more responsive, with that crap removed.
that is undeniable. Japanese cars don't even have EGR valves in Japan.
and Euro spec MB had no EGR valves.
so how bad can it be.
on the technical side, a cat converter is basically a filter bolted onto the exhaust,
that gets plugged solid eventually, and every expensive to replace.
if you're putting that back on again, the only obvious reason is,
you must live in an area where they won't inspect your car, without it.
where I live, a 25 year old car is EXEMPT from emissions testing, and yearly inspection.
why the hell would I put that back on again ? or any emissions equipment ?
it costs your horsepower. makes your car run like a dog.
 

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While that is certainly contributing to the issue the reality is you are never going to stop people breeding, cities getting bigger and more condensed in this day and age, all you can do is lessen the need to operate a car and\or reduce emissions. If everyone deleted their cat converter etc to gain hp then the air quality would be even worse resulting in more deaths for those live in these situations. People tend not to care about issues that don't directly affect them, ive been to Beijing in 2001, it was bad enough back then let alone 2 decades later.

Most Japanese market we get here (Japan, German even USA designed cars) have always had more emission controls (EGR's are quite common on JDM cars) than NZ New\Euro models (at least from 90's upto late 2000's). All their BMW's in Japan are a higher emission standards (ie Euro 3 instead of 2 which adds Air injection and post cat O2 sensors) compared to NZ new cars.

We have no emissions standards here in NZ and i understand people removing cats for good for a somewhat legitimate reason - blocked, rattling etc (which is extremely rare here).
It's a free world but I don't see the need to remove them in this situation and contribute to the pollution issue over a few hp. It may well be different to certain old American cars which were clearly never designed with emissions in mind when the 70's came around but as above ive seen plenty of N\A German cars(mainly BMW's & Porsche) with deletes done via gutting or full systems and the different is a few hp up the rev range which is nothing in the real world for a road car.

In my experience the cars usually sounds raspy or drone at certain rpm if its been cut or hollowed out with a straight pipe.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
I'm all for breeding...(lol)
but not for 9 million people in one place...
every time there's a crisis of sorts, like 911, or not coronavirus...
we have the lemmings fleeing NYC into the countryside in fear, here...
that tells me, there's too many people there to begin with.
total traffic gridlock- at what point does one realize, the population density is too high ?
when there's standing room only throughout the entire city ?
there's an old painting that deals with this...called overpopulation
 

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Discussion Starter #33
not so....there are many areas where the population is DROPPING, as people leave the area.
our suburban and rural areas are filled with people, who left NYC, Philly, NJ to come here,
to get the hell out of those areas.
yet you don't see large flocks of our local residents, leaving to move to the big city
city life is hell for the most part, in the USA
get caught or stuck in one of those places during a major crisis,
you're in a world of hurt
 

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Yeah im sure it doesn't apply to every situation but it does in general as world population increases and people move around the planet. You got some options in the US if you need to move unlike many places,but im certain many couldn't afford to move in the first place even if they wanted to or the risk is too great. I wouldn't want to live in a busy city myself, im semi rural which balances well. I known many are used to city life it as its all they have ever known, being near your job and having all the modern amenities and social interactions are essential for many, people like staying in their comfort zones after all.

Yep panic is common. That's why you all these rich exploiters buying up properties like remote farms in our country so they can run to when it turns to shit.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
there are vast wide open spaces throughout the world that can be developed, for population centers, instead of building 120 story high rises and packing us in like sardines in the cities. that's where the smog comes from, too many cars IN ONE AREA. if you had a dinner party and invited too many guests, for the size of your apartment or home, same problem. that's all it is. but they pile them into one place, for economic and monetary gains, once they get a profitable trend going. after that area is RUINED, they move on and overdevelop another area. instead of controlled, planned development in an even manner, throughout all areas.
 

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What glepore and nzjay have said......the whole reason I opted for a 140 and not another 129 (apples to oranges and I've had one and want another, but yeah) is quiet and refinement and power along with it. This sort of just defeats the purpose of double-glazing (as Clarkson calls it) svelte aerodynamics at speed. To each his own. Like those $12,000 japanese exhaust systems. How long til one's ears get tired of it? I'd have about 2 hours of fun with it then regret it.

I don't want to hear it except when I'm on it hard above 3k - and then, I just want some more burble and V12 song, instead of the stock vacuum cleaner sound. I think Anziani got that with his resonator delete. Maybe he will chime in.

188k on original stinky cats. I'll have to do something eventually, but what that is remains TBD and what I want will probably be next to impossible to create.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
there's no reason under the sun to pay $12k for an exhaust system, unless it's for a GT40 or Ferrari or something.
those cars will never be $1500, even junk ones.
 
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