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1990 190
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Discussion Starter #1
Hey all! Finally going through with this swap after a long time coming but still have some questions. So I have a 1990 190e auto and a 1991 2.3 5 speed with a bent frame. The trans is a 717.413 and the flywheel is m1040300405. I know I'll need to get a new pilot bearing and the clutch kit. I have the whole 5 speed car so I will have all the pedals, mounts ECT. Is there anything else anyone can think of that I would need?

Thanks!
Alex
 

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89 190E2.6- 5-speed Manual, 95 E320 Sportsline-sold, 2001 E320 4matic Wagon-sold
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Welcome to the forum saab900. I owned a couple 99's and 900's in my youth, so this brings back memories....

Please state the mileage on both cars as well.

I have a 5-speed 2.6 but it is original, so I'm no help at all.

There are a few on the forum who have done this swap and are very knowledgeable They will respond soon, I'm sure.

The only comment I would make is that depending on the differential mileage I would consider refreshing the differential as well. You probably have a 3.07 ratio differential which in my opinion is a very good compromise between the 3.27 (mine) and 2.87 (92-93) ratio's .

Reason is the manual transmission puts extra "reverse" torque on the differential and because of direct coupling you will "hear" and "feel" the slack if the differential is worn.

Saab 99/900 also had this in the manuals, even though they are front wheel drive, the final gearing must have developed a slack over time. Drove me nuts, W201's is not as bad.

- Cheers!
 

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Verify the part no for the flywheel. 104 indicates it's for M104 6cyl and may not have correct timing windows applicable to your motor. Whatever the part no, if it works on '91 2.3 it should likewise work on '90 2.3.

You'll want to replace the clutch hydraulics at the same time and at least the hard/soft clutch line on the trans. While you remove the brake master cyl reservoir is a good time to replace the rubber grommets. Also a good time to replace center support bearing and flex discs if needed.

Here's a straight forward guide for the swap on W124. Process is the same for W201.

 

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1990 190
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Discussion Starter #4
Appreciate the responses! That link is great. And the 103 vs 104 part number was the single vs dual mass flywheel designation from what I understand and my trans has a 104 number on it as well.

I read somewhere that 1040300405 was the old part and 1040301205 is the new part number for the flywheel. Dealer confirmed that as the correct part number for a 1990 manual as well.
 

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103 and 104 are both flywheels for 6cyl motors. They have three timing segments as opposed to 4cyl having two 180deg apart. You can see what I mean in this pics below.

I'll be able to verify part numbers soon. EPC took a shit. Had to have a friend sort it out and need to pickup laptop from him.

M103
https://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/e-class-w124/337956d1471854775-lightening-m103-flywheel-g1_119_n1_d_2.jpg


M102
https://www.german-spob.com/bilder_shop/EBAYBILDER/G1_119_40_1.jpg
 

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So I have a 1990 190e auto and a 1991 2.3 5 speed with a bent frame.
Okay so, based on this post I originally thought you were looking to swap '91 2.3 trans and flywheel into '90 2.3, but I'm estimating that your 1990 car is a 2.6 from your misfire thread. If so, unfortunately you'll need to source the dual mass flywheel for M103/4 or have the M102 flywheel modded to work.

2611240


2611241


If the dealer ran the 104 flywheel part number and it came up as valid for 1990 190E they did not differentiate between 4cyl/6cyl.

All part numbers for 717.413 trans that I can find start with 124. It was very possibly never mated to M104 motor, but I'm not sure.

2611242
 

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1990 190
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Discussion Starter #8
Correct I a planning to put a 2.3 5 speed into a 2.6 auto. So today I got the trans pulled from the 2.3. Those flex discs we're a PAIN to get off the diff. Definitely gonna need to replace the rear one, front one looks good. Also the (carrier bearing?) On the driveshaft was completely separated so I'll ad that to the list..

Hoping to order the clutch kit soon.

I am NOT looking forward to pulling the auto... There was BARELY space to get the flywheel bolts on the 2.3 lol
 

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Correct I a planning to put a 2.3 5 speed into a 2.6 auto. So today I got the trans pulled from the 2.3. Those flex discs we're a PAIN to get off the diff. Definitely gonna need to replace the rear one, front one looks good. Also the (carrier bearing?) On the driveshaft was completely separated so I'll ad that to the list..

Hoping to order the clutch kit soon.

I am NOT looking forward to pulling the auto... There was BARELY space to get the flywheel bolts on the 2.3 lol
Congrats. Pulling an auto sucks quite a bit worse. Access to the bellhousing bolts is roughly the same (assuming that's what you meant instead of flywheel). What's more of a pain is all the extra shit that needs to be accounted for compared to manual and how much longer it takes.

I stress that before buying a clutch kit decide what you're going to do about the flywheel. Sourcing the dual mass 6cyl flywheel will likely not be cheap or easy and possibly neither will it be to find a shop willing to mod the 2.3 one to work. Put in that position, IMO the Rennsport flywheel starts to look like a very good option.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I already have a m103 dmf on the way. Any advice or good walkthroughs on removing an auto? One thing I am unsure of is the starter. Do they differ between auto and manual or are they the same? I know they differ from 2.3 to 2.6.

Thanks,
Alex
 

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Good on getting a 6cyl flywheel. That can be the shittiest part of the whole swap.

Existing starter on the auto 2.6 will work with manual. Wasn't aware of a difference in 4cyl/6cyl starters. Figured they were all the same since transmissions are interchangeable between M102/103.

I'd also recommend getting a set of delrin shifter bushings and rebuilding your shifter. dolucasi just recently did this and was pleased with the results.

Copy and pasted below an email I sent to a friend and BW member for auto trans removal as well as the WIS docs. Hopefully will be of help.


I've also attached the WIS docs for removing and installing the auto trans, flywheel/ring gear, and rear main seal. I had them printed out and there with us when we did the job, but rarely referenced them other than for torque specs as most of the job is intuitive enough. Those are written by German engineers and I'm communicating to you now in Regular Ol' Asshole Am-English. You can temper your reading of either text with the other to your pleasure and best use.

You'll want to have 2-3' of extensions in various lengths and wobble and swivel/universal adapters to access the upper bellhousing bolts, and also a 27mm (1-1/16th") socket to turn the crank so you can access the drain plug and bolts on the torque converter. I don't know what y'all have planned for 'while I'm in there', but I would recommend replacing the motor mounts, trans mount, flex discs, center support bearing, and rear main seal during this job if there's no service history on those parts. Also inspect the trans cooler lines for wear. A friend had one bust when he was out of town. If y'all decide to do the rear main the ring gear will have to come out in which case you will probably want to get a new set of flywheel bolts. The fasteners on those have either a 12pt 12mm head or T55 Torx if they've been changed in the past. Also inspect the driveshaft while it's out. I asked a driveshaft shop owner about replacing the u-joint. He tapped it with a hammer and it freed up really nice. He suggested that it wasn't necessary to do at that time or in the foreseeable future.

First thing I did after getting the car up was spray all the exhaust bolts with PB Blaster so they could soak while the trans and torque converter drained. Drain trans pan, torque converter, and disconnect cooler lines. After the trans and TC are fully dry you can unbolt the torque converter from the ring gear. Next is to remove the exhaust and cat heat shield. Mark the driveshaft prior to removal. There are alignment marks on it, but they're not very easy to see and it's easy to forget to align it when reinstalling. Then remove the rear section of the driveshaft and all brackets and supports. Leave the front section of the DS on for now. Unbolt the dipstick and speedo cable, and go ahead and start removing the bellhousing bolts. Since I wasn't going to put the auto back in I wasn't as mindful removing the bowden cable and vac modulator lines as I would have been if they were staying in the car. You'll have to use your judgement on those as you remove the trans because I don't have any particular advice on those. I do remember seeing them connected as the trans was coming down and I disconnected them carefully without damaging anything. To access the upper bellhousing bolts you'll need to jack up the front of the motor to point the back end downwards. Be aware of how high you jack it up because it can come into contact with and damage the false firewall. The fan shroud will need to come out to do this. This is when you'll use those few feet of extensions. You obviously want to be as close to 90deg from the bolt head to avoid stripping it. And with the front section of the DS still attached to the trans you have a good lever to manipulate the trans to get a clear shot at them.

The motor will still need to be in this position to be able to remove the trans. As I mentioned in Sinan's exhaust thread, the trans tunnel is extremely narrow. There's not a whole lot of clearance around the trans. Tight fit. Make sure you have all 10 bolts out and you can start tugging on the trans to get it to release. Once you start to see a gap between the trans and motor block Get your jack under it for support and keep pulling. Watch for how it's gonna come out and where you'll need to position the jack to get it to balance then completely pull it away from the motor. We put some plywood planks down in case it rolled off the jack due to imbalance, but it did not. It's a bit cumbersome. Slid the trans off the jack onto a plank of wood and slid that out from under the car.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
So flywheel came in and it measures almost 9.5 inches across, the clutch I ordered claims 8.5 inches, spline and input shaft size all appear to be the same. Will this be an issue or will it work and just be undersized if I up power?
 

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That is going to depend on if the pressure plate bolts up to the flywheel. Where are you measuring 9.5" on the flywheel? See if the clutch from the 2.3 will mount to it.

Single mass clutches vary in size from I think 8.5-9.5". Hopefully you are measuring the wrong dimension.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
That was super helpful! Got the trans out!

Soooo clutch definitely didn't fit, the pressure plates diameter wasn't big enough.. and the clutch disk was smaller than my 2.3 clutch..
The 2.3 pressure plate fits onto the m103 flywheel but there doesn't seem to be enough space to fit a clutch disc inside..

So the flywheel surface where the clutch sits is a little over 9.5 inches across, anyone have any insight on what clutch kit I need?
 

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Send the part number of the flywheel and I'll profide the MB part nos for the pressure plate and clutch disc. You'll then have to cross reference the parts nos included in the clutch kit to verify they are correct to fit your flywheel. You can also contact the seller to see if they have any info for you. They may or may not be of any help if they are inexperienced with the application and can only parrot erroneous fitment info, which there is plenty of. As an example I've seen the dual mass clutch kit spec'd to fit all years of 190E when that is clearly not the case. Recently a friend ordered a clutch kit for his single mass flywheel equipped car and got a dual mass clutch kit. All kindsa bullshit misinfo out there.

The friction disc should be clenched tightly in between the press plate and flywheel when it's bolted in.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
So I was able to get the correct kit, the dual mass clutch kit is different than the single mass flywheel and I ordered the latter. Now I have the correct kit and the trans, shifter, and pedals are in place, I am going to try and bleed the clutch before I bolt everything down tight in case there is an issue but I think we're finally on the home stretch and I really appreciate all the responses!!

One more question, the auto speedo cable doesn't seem to go all the way into the trans, does this need changed out? I was under the impression that it only needed changed if it was too short to reach.
 

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Manual speedo cable is longer despite trans being shorter because the socket is on the other side of the gearbox. Hopefully you can get off the manual car still or you will have to buy one and I don't recommend the cheap Gemo brand speedometer cable. Had shitty experience with one as did dolucasi, needle wobbled right out of the box.

Something else you might want to get is the reservoir to master cyl fluid line. Part no 003 997 12 52.



Bleeding clutch for the first time is hell. Bench bleeding to get some fluid going through it is probably a good idea.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Yeah I got it all back together today. The speedo cable is plenty long enough to reach but doesn't want to go all the way into the trans, I don't see any major differences comparing the two ends.

I replaced the slave about a year back so I know bleeding is a pain, thought I had it bled, put the car down and now I barely have pressure lol

Has anyone run into a no start after installing a manual? I read somewhere about someone needing a spacer for the crank sensor but I've got the purple wires together and it's cranking no problem but doesn't sound like it wants to start
 

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I'm not aware of a crank sensor spacer being required. Maybe that's a dual-mass flywheel thing? I'd imagine the timing windows would be in same position as the auto flex plate, but I don't know. If a spacer is required and you didn't use one maybe the CPS got blasted. Take it out and check condition.

Not sure what else the issue could be. If the NSS is jumped and the car is cranking it should go if it ran before the swap. There are one or two vacuum connections that need to be capped, but that shouldn't prevent the car from starting.

I've had trouble getting a speedometer cable to go into the socket before. Took like 20min of poking, proding, and twisting before it eventually went in.
 

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89 190E2.6- 5-speed Manual, 95 E320 Sportsline-sold, 2001 E320 4matic Wagon-sold
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I'm pretty sure you will need the longer cable, either the auto transmission cable will get damaged or you may damage the attachment at the transmission end.
That appears to be a fragile coupling so wanted to warn you about that.
 
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