[joe1973]

Hi All,

I'd like to share a few photos from a 'classic hunting' trip I did yesterday. This is a manual '67 230 sl -- but instead of showing topside pics as bodywork is a good 3 or 4 condition, I'm sharing the underside where I have concerns. Rust and what seems to be a floor panel repair in the rear. Maybe with your expert eyes will uncover more.

I promised seller to make offer (if I choose) by Monday, Oct 21. I have experience with W123 diesels, R107s but not these older 60s SLs. My goal is to find a nice 'decent' driver car to work on over winter and enjoy next spring or even the occasional warm days (dry, salt free roads) this winter. Also had 70s 911's for street and track use and never a bad experience. Help me keep this streak with this car or any other W113.

Thank you.

 

[joe1973]

More Pics

More Pics

 

[Matvh]

Be prepare for repairs

All of the rubber bushing appear to be original or old.
Sub frame bushings are tired.
Probably the entire front suspension bushings need it also
Brakes, hoses calipers?
Drive line?
Need picture of rear suspension.
Compression test on engine?
Cooling system, radiator, water pump etc?
Does she run?
How does she drive?
Be prepared to repair to make reliable
Could be a nice car with some TLC

 

[joe1973]

I'll post pics of the rear this afternoon. Though it's pretty much the same theme as the front. Originals mostly. The car starts smoothly and with no hesitation or noise, manual shifting smooth and engine acceleration without hesitation. In one of my pics above, do you spot any sign of floor board welding? Fine if so, but worried if rust on sub-frame issues underneath.

 

[Matvh]

Inspect

Remove the front tires and wheels.
Use a grease gun and inspect and grease all locations
Does grease penetrate thu the bushings, king pins, etc.
Exhaust system looks old and rusted
Look below the battery, inspect
Inspect exhaust manifold carefully for cracks
Fuel pump, fuel tank, wheel wells, trunk, all these areas need careful inspections
You mentioned a project to work on over the winter, if you have decent mechanic and repair skills, these cars are reasonable to work on.
Look underneath carpet, where welded floor pan was replaced, inspect carefully
Parts are available for these cars, although nothing is cheap
Good luck
:thumbsup:

 

[pepelepew69]

what to look for

Hi and good day,
Yes the undercarriage is important to be solid but also the structure of the car
Make sure that you see all the spot welds on the front fenders as well as the ones for the nose panel,
Trunk floor is also important and the rear body panel spot welds
If you find a car with these in original shape you are on the right track as these significant spot welds can make a difference well over ten thousand in value,In todays market you are better off paying 10,000 more for a good solid car than one with rust issues and body panels replaced!
Hope this helps
I should post some pictures of where to look ! when buying!

I'll post pics of the rear this afternoon. Though it's pretty much the same theme as the front. Originals mostly. The car starts smoothly and with no hesitation or noise, manual shifting smooth and engine acceleration without hesitation. In one of my pics above, do you spot any sign of floor board welding? Fine if so, but worried if rust on sub-frame issues underneath.

 

[joe1973]

Looking to make offer or forget the car by next week. It is a cheap and fair price but need to ensure i do not end up with a retirement money pit. So I have 2 questions:

1. The transmission (see pic above) looks like two pieces mated are from different units just be the color / rust pattern. Though the main case seems covered in fluid which either indicates a bad leak or that seller may have just fixed by bolting used part to address broken transmission. The number stamped on the case is 111 261 03 01. Is that right for a 230 sl manual produced in 1965?

2. The rust apart from floors that bother me are the fuel and brake fluid lines front to rear and the subframe mount. Both seen in pics above. I see subframe mount costs $500 each x 2 or maybe x4 if need to replace all corners. Does the picture indicate mount will break down with a single pot hole situation and also do you believe the fuel lines could just leak anytime soon if not already?

 

[jmela]

Subframe mount(s) has done its service and needs to be replaced. The MB replacement kit is roughly $600 for the pair of mounts (not apiece), aftermarket/ Febi will be less than that.

Judging by the pics, there may be a few jobs like this to get it into solid, drivable condition. If that sort of work is something that you enjoy and you don't need to use it as a daily driver right off the bat, it might be worthwhile.

These cars are popular and the market value is strong, however, this is a used, old car with needs. $26k +/- would just cover your entrance fee.

 

[LWB250]

Looks like a lot of the soft parts are original, or if not vey old. Do your due diligence, as many of these are unobtanium or vey expensive being available only from the Cla$$ic Center.

As a previous poster indicated, you're only paying an entrance fee for what you're buying - be prepared to drop some serious coin if you want to get this in good shape. Otherwise, drive it as-is and enjoy it.

If you're buying to restore, you're going to spend a lot of money.

 

[joe1973]

thanks Jmela. So guessing the replacement of subframe mount and motor mount will cost me $800 or so with my Indy? What about the rusted fuel lines? Can they last a few more years and replace only when weeping? The car starts instantly, engine acceleration and shifting smooth, noises on idle show no dangers with belts, pumps, chains.. at least to my ears. Will $3k or so make this a driver? Not looking to garage queen. Have an 84 300d I daily drive to work in non winter and just bought my son an 85 380 sl he drives to school, until we get our first snow in northeast.

 

[jmela]

thanks Jmela. So guessing the replacement of subframe mount and motor mount will cost me $800 or so with my Indy? What about the rusted fuel lines? Can they last a few more years and replace only when weeping? The car starts instantly, engine acceleration and shifting smooth, noises on idle show no dangers with belts, pumps, chains.. at least to my ears. Will $3k or so make this a driver? Not looking to garage queen. Have an 84 300d I daily drive to work in non winter and just bought my son an 85 380 sl he drives to school, until we get our first snow in northeast.

It's really impossible to say after looking at some pics on a computer screen. Keep in mind (if this is your first old Benz) MB factory parts are expensive, available, durable, and fit perfectly (certainly for the first, usually for the final three). Aftermarket support is there on some items but quality and fit can be iffy.

I'd take it to a mech you trust/ familiar w old MB's for a pre-purchase inspection. This is standard in the collectible car world and he'll be much more helpful than my kinda/ sorta statements. This would also provide you w a grocery list of items to be replaced + labor cost that could be effective leverage in negotiating a final price. Keep us posted.

 

[DirectLA]

I'd doubt $3k will make it a driver if you're including the front suspension bits and correcting the fuel lines, trans leak unless you are doing some of the work as well to save labor costs. You can however probably spend $3k right off in order to get it drivable for occasional use, meaning deal with the rubber bits for now and take it easy and address the fuel lines and more pressing safety things like brakes, and also make sure the fuel filters including the one in the tank are clean.

I'd probably still hope to get the price down a small amount to cover some of the suspension issues, you may also need springs, shocks, etc. and if the stuff up top is as good as you say then why not? It will be hard to lose money on this car in the next 2-5 years so long as you make a solid plan and stick to it for repairs (obviously I am not referring to a full resto, which this car likely doesn't need).

 

[joe1973]

My goal is to buy one of these pagodas and drive for maybe 2-3 yrs with up to 5k mi per yr then ideally sell for what I paid (or slightly more to get back some of the maintenance). Would the wheels fall off this ride within a year? Or would it suit my game plan?

 

[drew56cus]

Joe, no one can answer your question over the internet. These are not cars to buy without knowing what you are looking at unless you have a thick wallet in case things go wrong. But if they are sorted, they are great. In parts alone, replacing the rubbers in the front and rear suspension, fuel hoses and brake hoses will be at least $1500 and then you add labour on. That is without worn king pins, leaky seals in the rear end, wheel bearings or brakes. So if you do not know what you are looking for, take the car to a mechanic recommended by someone in the local MB club and get them to advise.
If you only want to do a little driving and re-sell, buy a car in great condition that has a maintenance history. The buy-in price is higher, but that is like an insurance policy against potential high maintenance costs.
Cheers, Drew

 

[joe1973]

Thanks Drew/all. I think the collective wisdom on this board has me convinced. I do have the wallet but my wife would not be happy nor would it be logical to sink $15k-$20k on a $20k car! Wheeler Dealers make it look so easy.... Cheers!

 

[rumb]

"will cost me $800 or so with my Indy? "

If you get this car and plan on someone else doing most the work your may get tired of the expense soon. all the things you mention are quite easy to replace yourself.

You are astute to look beyond the pretty paint and look under the car. If you are not planning on doing the work yourself, you should look to spend another $5-8K plus and buy a car that is already had work done.

The front subframe for instance are about 2-3 hours of your time assuming that is all you do while there. It is a bit tricky though if you are not a regular mechanic as you need to be comfortable prying strongly to get the part in place.

the picture of yours shows complete separation. when you lift the car using the unibody you put all the weight of the engine and front suspension on them. It is recommended to only lift one side of the car using this method, when lifting entire car, put lift point under front suspension.

You have not shown rest of car pictures, paint, interior, trim ect is important also as large expense goes there also.

 

[joe1973]

What about the transmission. This 4-speed manual has a unit- 111 261 03 01. Is that right for a 230 sl manual produced in 1965? Ive found this transmission is used in a 190sl, though maybe MB reused until the early w113 SLs.
The seller called me today sensing i lost interest. If i ask for $23k and they bite, may end up making the deal.

 

[LWB250]

If you buy this car without a PPI (pre-purchase inspection) you might as well go out and spend your money on lottery tickets.

If you're not that familiar with the model in general (and it sounds like you're not) you're rolling the dice on what could be a very, very expensive hole in your garage floor (and wallet!)

I wouldn't buy a used MB without a PPI and I am a former mechanic and have all but field stripped W123/124/126 chassis cars.

Considering the costs to repair and maintain a model of this vintage, your purchase price is pocket change. Buying this car without consulting someone who knows them well is akin use asking someone off the street to look it over.

It will not end well, I assure you.

 

[joe1973]

LWB- they wont allow the car to be brought to a shop. Only way to PPI is by sending tech over. NEw York City area. Know anyone ?

 

[LWB250]

LWB- they wont allow the car to be brought to a shop. Only way to PPI is by sending tech over. NEw York City area. Know anyone ?

RUN, do not walk, away from this as if your hair was on fire.

The minute a seller tells me they won't take a car to an independent shop for an inspection I'm done.

If I was spending literally tens of thousands of dollars for a car like this, I would expect the seller to be accommodating. I can understand why they would not let you take it, since you don't own it, but if they won't drive the car or arrange to have it driven to a local shop for an inspection, my BS meter goes off the scale.

I'm merely making observations here based on the information you've given us - my comments are not a personal attack, and please don't take them that way.

If you buy this car you are out of your mind.

Why?

You don't appear to have done much in the way of due diligence as far as this model is concerned. Buy a copy of John Olson's "SL" book and read it in depth before you buy one.

You're looking for a "deal". Cars like this are not found as "deals" unless you're planning on a restoration. The ONLY way to buy a car like this (and I am speaking from direct experience) is to buy the very, very best example that you can afford. Buying a "fixer-upper" will cost you far more in the long run, even more so if you're not familiar with this model and its idiosyncrasies.

If a seller is not motivated or accommodating enough to arrange for a PPI, they're hiding something or they aren't that interested in selling the car. The minute a seller balks at a PPI, regardless of the reason, should be a MAJOR red flag to a buyer. I have felt this way whether it's a $1000 car or a $10,000 car. If the car is fairly represented, a PPI should yield no surprises.

You don't sound like your "all in" on this. If I was to spend $20k-$30 on a car that's 50 years old, I would study everything I could, ask lots of questions in the forums, and talk to some owners and even try and find a few I could look at and drive, if possible. Then, and only then, would I start to look for a possible candidate.

These are not the kind of cars you buy on a whim, unless you have a lot of disposable income. As pointed out earlier in the thread, just sorting the subframe bushings will easily set you back a cool $1000. And that's doing it yourself. If you're not capable or skilled enough to do the work on the car, it's going to cost you that much more and you're going to be at the mercy of your local MB mechanic, very few of which will touch these older cars or even have knowledge of them.