[Renato Oliveira]

Hi,

I'm new on the forum and I've come to ask for the help of someone more knowledgeable than I am...

The situation is as follows:
I've got a 190E 1.8 petrol that I'm working on... I'll most probably stay with the car. Thing is...
In my country, the price of gas is higher and higher everyday, and it's getting impossible to drive on gas, since our salaries aren't high at all...
I wanted to use lpg, but I've read that lpg and mechanical injection is something that doesn't work out well... :crybaby2:

Is there an engine that is easy to swap in my 190E and that can take up lpg with satisfying results and performance?
I think I saw somewhere people installing EFI systems on 190 E (W201), so shouldn't it be possible to install a sequential lpg system as well?
Sorry for my lack of knowledge...
I hope someone can shed some light to my doubts and questions.
Thanks in advance.

My best regards,
Renato
:thumbsup:

 

[rjb190e]

Get in touch with Samoila Stefan. He mods the B Class forum now but he successfully installed LPG in his 190 several years ago. Maybe he can be of help.

 

[Renato Oliveira]

Get in touch with Samoila Stefan. He mods the B Class forum now but he successfully installed LPG in his 190 several years ago. Maybe he can be of help.

Oh, I see... Thanks a lot. I'll give it a try.

 

[Stretch]

The 1.8 at least has one of the higher compression ratios that was available for the M102 engine. You'll have an easier time with a higher compression ratio engine when burning LPG. However you really need to check out the condition of the engine before spending money on the conversion. A "leaky" engine will only cause you trouble.

On a dual fuel set up - with an engine that can burn both petrol and LPG - you'll never get to see great returns in terms of distance driven : litres of gas used. The only benefit is that LPG is cheaper at the moment.

To go any distance you will need to install a big tank in the back of the car. Generally speaking that means you need to beef up the rear suspension. The W201 / W124 suspension is relatively complicated and can be expensive to repair (if done well with good quality parts). Heavy duty "taxi" springs can be fitted - widely for sale in Holland and Germany.

All in all I would expect that the cost of a conversion here in Holland even with the plentiful second hand parts would be in excess of one thousand euros after you've got all of the extra bits and bobs needed. This is a serious long term investment. The spark plugs for burning LPG are about 100 euros a piece when new...

If I were you I'd be considering a diesel.



Note about law and policy changes =>

Here in Holland they are now saying that if you drive a "classic" car - that's something older than 25 years but younger than 40 years - and you have LPG or a diesel engine you need to pay the full road tax rate. On a 1500kg car that's about 1500 euros a year (at this year's rates depending on which province you live etc)

So there's a strong policy change away from LPG and diesel here. That means that second hand LPG and diesel cars and parts are going to be cheap.

However, as many European countries seem to think that the Dutch know what they are talking about when it comes to stupid traffic calming measures and daft taxation measures I would be cautious of making long term expensive choices at this time!

 

[Renato Oliveira]

The 1.8 at least has one of the higher compression ratios that was available for the M102 engine. You'll have an easier time with a higher compression ratio engine when burning LPG. However you really need to check out the condition of the engine before spending money on the conversion. A "leaky" engine will only cause you trouble.

On a dual fuel set up - with an engine that can burn both petrol and LPG - you'll never get to see great returns in terms of distance driven : litres of gas used. The only benefit is that LPG is cheaper at the moment.

To go any distance you will need to install a big tank in the back of the car. Generally speaking that means you need to beef up the rear suspension. The W201 / W124 suspension is relatively complicated and can be expensive to repair (if done well with good quality parts). Heavy duty "taxi" springs can be fitted - widely for sale in Holland and Germany.

All in all I would expect that the cost of a conversion here in Holland even with the plentiful second hand parts would be in excess of one thousand euros after you've got all of the extra bits and bobs needed. This is a serious long term investment. The spark plugs for burning LPG are about 100 euros a piece when new...

If I were you I'd be considering a diesel.



Note about law and policy changes =>

Here in Holland they are now saying that if you drive a "classic" car - that's something older than 25 years but younger than 40 years - and you have LPG or a diesel engine you need to pay the full road tax rate. On a 1500kg car that's about 1500 euros a year (at this year's rates depending on which province you live etc)

So there's a strong policy change away from LPG and diesel here. That means that second hand LPG and diesel cars and parts are going to be cheap.

However, as many European countries seem to think that the Dutch know what they are talking about when it comes to stupid traffic calming measures and daft taxation measures I would be cautious of making long term expensive choices at this time!

Thanks for answering.
Yeah, maybe you're right about that...
But, if I got a W201 diesel, I'd want the 2.5 TurboDiesel, which is quite rare here in Portugal...

 

[mannys9130]

I'm not familiar with LPG systems, but if people can Megasquirt an M102 and run gasoline, why not Megasquirt and just substitute injectors that are capable of spraying LPG? I don't know if you spray the LPG as a liquid or if you allow the liquid to decompress into a gas, but you could probably find injectors that are capable of running LPG.

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[Stretch]

I'm not familiar with LPG systems, but if people can Megasquirt an M102 and run gasoline, why not Megasquirt and just substitute injectors that are capable of spraying LPG? I don't know if you spray the LPG as a liquid or if you allow the liquid to decompress into a gas, but you could probably find injectors that are capable of running LPG.

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Nice idea but I think the main point of the exercise is to be cheap! (I think so anyway - see next comment)

Thanks for answering.
Yeah, maybe you're right about that...
But, if I got a W201 diesel, I'd want the 2.5 TurboDiesel, which is quite rare here in Portugal...

A 2.5 turbo diesel gives me the impression that not only do you want cheap fuel / lower fuel costs you want to be able to break the sound barrier when ever you feel like it.

Generally speaking low fuel and high performance don't go hand in hand. Certainly not in a used car market on vehicles with engines that have already had a life. LPG does not have the energy content of petrol (even though the RON value is higher - which indicates its ability to ignite under compression not that it is more powerful) so driving around on LPG is like driving a car with a bad cold. {The car has the cold not you}

The thing that concerns me - going back to the original gist of the thread - is that you are looking at a 2000 euro vehicle and then investing about half that amount (if you are lucky) just changing to a different fuel type. You've then got the usual costs of new suspension brakes and servicing etc etc etc - before you know it you'll be saying with the rest of us "there's no such thing as a cheap Benz"!

{And that's a bit unfair for the W201 which has relatively low spare part prices in my opinion}

If the purpose of this exercise is economy / cheap then I think you might be setting off in the wrong direction.

 

[mannys9130]

Nice idea but I think the main point of the exercise is to be cheap! (I think so anyway - see next comment)



A 2.5 turbo diesel gives me the impression that not only do you want cheap fuel / lower fuel costs you want to be able to break the sound barrier when ever you feel like it.

Generally speaking low fuel and high performance don't go hand in hand. Certainly not in a used car market on vehicles with engines that have already had a life. LPG does not have the energy content of petrol (even though the RON value is higher - which indicates its ability to ignite under compression not that it is more powerful) so driving around on LPG is like driving a car with a bad cold. {The car has the cold not you}

The thing that concerns me - going back to the original gist of the thread - is that you are looking at a 2000 euro vehicle and then investing about half that amount (if you are lucky) just changing to a different fuel type. You've then got the usual costs of new suspension brakes and servicing etc etc etc - before you know it you'll be saying with the rest of us "there's no such thing as a cheap Benz"!

{And that's a bit unfair for the W201 which has relatively low spare part prices in my opinion}

If the purpose of this exercise is economy / cheap then I think you might be setting off in the wrong direction.

Now that's something I can get behind. Once you start ripping things apart it gets expensive QUICK!

The 2.5 turbo should get decent mileage if driven conservatively, but yes you can hit mach 1 if you so choose.

IF I WANTED TO BUILD A FUEL SIPPING SUPER CAR I'd probably get a junky (not rusty) W123 240D with a 4 speed. Then I'd strip it down really well and lighten it up as much as possible. I'd make aerodynamic modifications and make sure the engine was in top health. It's of my opinion that the W123 is slightly more durable then the W201 and you can more easily "jury rig" things to save on repair costs. At that point, you'd be sipping diesel at a slow rate and your cost to own would be low because you'd primarily try to improvise repairs yourself.

I love my car and I take care of it and feed it good fuel and dealer parts whenever possible. However, if I wanted to pick a car that I could do very little maintaining and still rely on it to get me place to place pretty cheaply, I'd pick an old Benz that I cobble together.

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[Stretch]

Now that's something I can get behind. Once you start ripping things apart it gets expensive QUICK!

The 2.5 turbo should get decent mileage if driven conservatively, but yes you can hit mach 1 if you so choose.

IF I WANTED TO BUILD A FUEL SIPPING SUPER CAR I'd probably get a junky (not rusty) W123 240D with a 4 speed. Then I'd strip it down really well and lighten it up as much as possible. I'd make aerodynamic modifications and make sure the engine was in top health. It's of my opinion that the W123 is slightly more durable then the W201 and you can more easily "jury rig" things to save on repair costs. At that point, you'd be sipping diesel at a slow rate and your cost to own would be low because you'd primarily try to improvise repairs yourself.

I love my car and I take care of it and feed it good fuel and dealer parts whenever possible. However, if I wanted to pick a car that I could do very little maintaining and still rely on it to get me place to place pretty cheaply, I'd pick an old Benz that I cobble together.

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I agree I would probably do something like that too - though I'd ideally like some 1950s American tin with Mercedes mechanicals...

...but we aren't the type that conforms to the majority. Most people want more of a twist and go solution.

 

[swampmonkey]

Now that's something I can get behind. Once you start ripping things apart it gets expensive QUICK!

The 2.5 turbo should get decent mileage if driven conservatively, but yes you can hit mach 1 if you so choose.

IF I WANTED TO BUILD A FUEL SIPPING SUPER CAR I'd probably get a junky (not rusty) W123 240D with a 4 speed. Then I'd strip it down really well and lighten it up as much as possible. I'd make aerodynamic modifications and make sure the engine was in top health. It's of my opinion that the W123 is slightly more durable then the W201 and you can more easily "jury rig" things to save on repair costs. At that point, you'd be sipping diesel at a slow rate and your cost to own would be low because you'd primarily try to improvise repairs yourself.

I love my car and I take care of it and feed it good fuel and dealer parts whenever possible. However, if I wanted to pick a car that I could do very little maintaining and still rely on it to get me place to place pretty cheaply, I'd pick an old Benz that I cobble together.

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the 240d is a good choice, pair that with a 3.07 rearend and you are good
(mixed driving with torn 240d 3.07 and w115 lands me around 0.69-0.75 mixed, 0.63 long-highway. you will in no way break the soundbarrier thou.

find yourself a om602 turbo from a w124 if you have that, change the finaldrive to a 3.07 or lower, a manual fivespeed, and you should be able to get realy good mileage, and the cost shouldnt be much more than that of that LPG build (which i btw is totaly unfamiliar with)

has om602 (2.5turbodiesel) in an w123 and have no problem getting bellow 0.65 mixed driving ( with 7.5mm elements and 200whp)

 

[Renato Oliveira]

Hi, people,

Thanks for all your answers and I'm sorry for not being much active on this post...
Well, I know I'll invest money on the W201, probably more money than people think is worth... Thing is, I like to have a vehicle that I've modded to fit what I've got in my mind, is like giving strength to a connection or a bond... It's a bit difficult to explain! XD
And I really like Mercedes W201...
A friend of mine has a 190 2.3-16 Cosworth, 185 hp, of 1985. I really love his car! XD

Another detail, I don't really want to break the sound barrier, nor do I want an ultra fast car that eats Ferraris for breakfast... Don't be mean!
I want a car that has rear wheel drive, that has a design that I appreciate and that has some energy attached to its wheels, a car with a bit of soul, it doesn't have to be a beast at all. XD
And for such reasons, I think that gas engines are pretty competent...
I want to be able to drive it without being suck dry of money though, so LPG is nice when driving for cash saving purposes...
Where I live, 1 liter of gas is close to 1,58 €, which is a bit high, considering our low salaries...

The project is moving, little by little, because we've been a bit busy and we're trying to figure out all the legal obligations as well... I'm not going to raise the red curtain on it yet, I'll let things build up a little more and then I'll get back to you.

As the puzzle is being assembled, I'm solving some problems with the car...
For instance, when I turn the headlights on, the buzzer keeps sounding, which is a little annoying and a little bit deafening, the seatbelt warning light, near the dome light, is always on too...
Any suggestions as what the problems may be?

Thanks a lot for enduring my questions and ideas, you are awsome.

 

[Stretch]

You've bought a car already?

 

[Renato Oliveira]

You've bought a car already?

That's a good question. XD
Well, not really...
The car is from a known person of mine that sells cars... The car was from his brother, who had to travel abroad and left the car at the care of his daughter...
The car started to have a hard time firing up when cold (Over Voltage Protection Relay wasn't working as it should, but they didn't know...), and since she had her own car she asked her uncle (the guy I know and that sells cars) to sell the W201.
He put the car at a cheap price, because it was really difficult to make it run.

I said that probably me and my father could sort the problem out... He put the car in my yard, so me and my father are trying to solve the problems it has.
After we sort the things out, we'll probably buy the car at a nice price, and mod it to our taste...
Thing is, we live in Europe and this car is a Mercedes 190E from 1992 (W201), 1800 cc petrol engine, which makes finding a Workshop Manual a difficult task...

 

[Stretch]

I've been using this manual

Untitled Document

It doesn't specifically have either the 2.0 or 1.8 litre M102 engine information but it is good enough for 98% of the jobs you are likely to need to do.

 

[Renato Oliveira]

I've been using this manual

Untitled Document

It doesn't specifically have either the 2.0 or 1.8 litre M102 engine information but it is good enough for 98% of the jobs you are likely to need to do.

Thanks a lot for that manual.

I've been using a program that has that precise manual, to shed some light into my ignorance and help me out a bit...
I found it on this forum recently.
But some little things just get my head turning around...
For instance, I've been looking for the warning module, but it isn't where the manual says it should be... The grounds behind the instrument cluster are on the right and not on the left (really strange...)...

Oh, I don't know if you can help me out with this problem (since you have the European 1.8 too), the black leads of the switches for the rear dome light (near the instrument cluster) and for the rear glass defogger, where do they fit?
After taking out the instrument cluster I realized that the black wire of the rear dome switch and the black wire of the rear glass defogger switch are hanging around, completely loose...
They have a kind of male cylindrical terminal, which only makes sense if there was a plug where they fit into...
Can you help me?
I'm sorry to trouble you.

 

[Nfsjunkie91]

Oh, I don't know if you can help me out with this problem (since you have the European 1.8 too), the black leads of the switches for the rear dome light (near the instrument cluster) and for the rear glass defogger, where do they fit?
After taking out the instrument cluster I realized that the black wire of the rear dome switch and the black wire of the rear glass defogger switch are hanging around, completely loose...
They have a kind of male cylindrical terminal, which only makes sense if there was a plug where they fit into...
Can you help me?
I'm sorry to trouble you.

Those are fiber optic cables for lighting. They fit into the back of the switches when you plug them in, and the other fits into the space on the back of the instrument cluster at the top. There's a small white plastic piece with three holes that clips in. When the lights are on, the same light that lights up the instrument cluster also lights up those switches. There is one on the right side of the cluster for defrost, power antenna switch (if equipped) and sunroof switch (earlier years). On the left side it is for the rear dome light switch.

 

[Renato Oliveira]

Those are fiber optic cables for lighting. They fit into the back of the switches when you plug them in, and the other fits into the space on the back of the instrument cluster at the top. There's a small white plastic piece with three holes that clips in. When the lights are on, the same light that lights up the instrument cluster also lights up those switches. There is one on the right side of the cluster for defrost, power antenna switch (if equipped) and sunroof switch (earlier years). On the left side it is for the rear dome light switch.

Oh I see...
Thanks a lot, I kind of feel a little bit embarrassed about not knowing it from the beginning ... XD
But that is another thing sorted out.
Another thing happened though... To detach the speedometer cable, I got my hand through the electric wires below the dash board and instrument cluster... In the process, I must have unplugged some connections, because my Central Power Door Lock has stopped to function and my buzzer stopped to scream just now...
I noticed that a harness, that is composed by only two terminals on the end I can see (one terminal with two brown and gray wires and the other terminal with one green and brown wire) is unplugged, and is behind the instrument cluster... Do you know what it will energize?
I'm sorry for being such a pain in the... rear end... I know I'm making too many questions...
I solve some problems, but then I notice there are others... I guess this car likes to play hide and seek with me.
Since all of you are more experienced with Mercedes than me, I suppose that you're the best people to reach out to...
Thanks to everyone.

 

[Renato Oliveira]

Hi, everyone,

Ok, a little update. Central Power Door Lock system is working fine once again.
The fuse number 12 was broken, replaced it, which fixed the Central Door Lock.
Continuing my quest of making this car a Shining Star once again.
(Mercedes... Shining Star... Fits quite fine! XD)

See you soon,
Renato

 

[Stretch]

Sounds like the deal has been done - at least it has been done in your head anyway!

 

[Stretch]

Oh yes - I forgot to say it sounds like you've got the answers you need but if you need pictures of stuff then I can help out.