brakes on w/winch - Mercedes-Benz Forum
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 06:10 AM Thread Starter
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brakes on w/winch

Hi guys. I have confirmed that my ex-firetruck 1300L w/rear Werner hydraulic winch DOES put the brakes on when the in (ein)/ out(aus) pneumatic selector switch is set to "in". On other heavy winches I've had, and from what I have observed on this Werner winch as well, the idea is to engage some offset rollers that the cable runs through ahead of the winch, offsetting these rollers puts a small drag on the winch cable that keeps it tight when winding in on the drum. When the switch is set to "out", the rollers release as the winch should either be paying out under tension or, if the selector swich for free spool is engaged, be pulled out by hand. Did a lot of repeated winching last night and all works, but my brakes definitely set whenever the cable is being wound in. I did not check to see if the cable would wind in if the pneumatic selector was set to "out" and the tension rollers released, maybe that's the way to do it, although I'd have to be sure that the cable was under a good steady load or run the risk of fouling on the drum. Having the tensioner working is the best way to go, but I have to be able to wind in wothout the brakes being on. As I write this I'm thinking of other things to check, such as whether all brakes go on or just the parking. When the tensioners are engaged, air pressure is sent to the cylinder that engages them, but would the parking brakes then be vented if they go on (I am assuming that they work like normal safety spring brakes for the parking brake, at least they act that way), and if it turns out all brakes are on when winching in, then pressure would have to go to the Wabco unit as well as the tension cylinder. Just trying to get an idea of what to look for in the hose routing so I can disconnect, or connect, the hoses properly. Any thoughts appreciated to give me more to think about as I start to check the switch and hose routing. Tony
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 12:26 PM
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Hi Tony,

My U-1300L's Werner winch seems to be set up similar to yours, with some important exceptions. The EIN/AUS switch on the dash turns on/off a pneumatic control on the winch so that when it's EIN, the coupling engages and the hydraulic motor drives the winch gearing (hydraulically going in or out). AUS disconnects the coupler, and if (and only if) there is no load on the winch, the coupling disengages and the cable can be pulled off the drum. Neither of those operations does anything to the tensioner up near the front (under the driver, a totally passive device (the tensioner, not the driver LOL)), nor to the brakes (on my truck). You might find there really is no control of the tensioner up front. It's simply a set of rollers with friction, that drags the cable on the inward direction. When well lubricated, the tensioner works great. Easy to pull cable out by hand, and the winch pulls cable in.

I'd bet the engagement of your brakes is an option, and can undoubtedly be defeated. The air pressure supplied in EIN position probably applies the brakes (probably your front brakes) in addition to engaging the winch drive.

Because the rear parking brakes require the RELEASE of air pressure, you would certainly hear that air dump if the rear brakes lock when EIN is engaged. You didn't mention it, and that air dump is so obvious, I'm going to suggest your rear brakes do not lock, but your front ones do. An easy test.

My front brakes will lock also, but that requires that I push another button on the dash, and I believe that applies air pressure to some part of the hydraulic brakes to lock the front brakes. Probably your truck has the EIN button provide that front brake lock air pressure instead of the separate switch like on my truck.

All that said, if you confirm that only your front brakes lock in EIN position, then you simply need to find the air line between the winch disconnect assembly (operated by EIN/AUS), and the front brakes, and disable it. You'd have the option of adding a valve to provide front brake locking independently of the winch EIN operation. But, be sure the front brakes cannot be engaged unless the rear parking brakes are also engaged, as a safety, like mine is. Imagine the problem if the front brakes were locked up while in motion.

BTW, the winch has a drag brake adjusted by a large hand knob (right side from the rear). That drag should be tight enough that the cable does not unwind from vibration. The manual says the EIN/AUS should be left in the EIN position (red light off) but I leave it AUS as a safety measure against accidental winch engagement.


Bob
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-25-2008, 05:52 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Bob, thanks for the response. I think we're on the same page, but you have given me some things to check in trying to define exactly what is happening now so I can make it work the way I want. When I go from ein to aus I do hear a definite air release, but not quite the volume of the parking brake setting lever. Your probably right about the tensioning rollers and I will get in the truck and write all the actions/response that I'm observing down. In other winches I've had, the rollers were pneumatically set and released to tension the cable, I saw the rollers and from what you're saying assumed wrongly that the air noise I heard was the roller actuation. Aus and the free spool button will also not release the cable if it has any load on it with my truck. I did notice that last night. But aus on my truck will engage the hydraulic motor and allow the cable to be payed out with load on it, freespool button just won't work until the load is off. About the brakes locking up in motion, I was actually rolling forward down a slight decline in my driveway and engaged ein (winch was in neutral lock and air pressure around 16 bar) because I thought it would keep the cable tight between the fairlead rollers and the drum, and the brakes came on (don't know front/ rear or both). That's when I first suspected something different. I've got more to think about now and will take a more careful look and make notes. Let you know what I find and what I think I can do and I'd appreciate it if you can let me know if it makes sense to you. Tony
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-26-2008, 05:45 AM
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Hi Tony,

Because your front brakes will lock in motion, I'd guess your truck has been modified after it was built. I am certain that MB would never build a truck on which the front brakes could be locked up in motion by simply engaging a winch coupling.

The winch coupling is electrically controlled, making it conceivable that an electrical failure (short/open) could activate your front brakes. IMHO, something to fix asap.

My winch is a "Werner Baumuster A 50.1 H1 H0, 1987, 5000 daN. (rating is around 11,240 lbs pull). Does your winch have a tag on it? I haven't found a good reference to any of those numbers as an actual part number for the winch.

Bob
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-26-2008, 09:56 AM Thread Starter
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Not sure just yet which brakes are applying in the "ein" position. I'll let you know what I find when I get a chance to look at it again, maybe tonight. My winch does have some tags on it and I have a complete manual, but it's in German and I haven't had time to translate much of it, but the numbers you provide seem to be the same as have come up with. I haven't had a really hard pull so far, as evidenced by the reasonably low values I have seen on the hydraulic pressure gauge (a measure of how much load and part of the kit according to the pictures in the manual). Kind of a neat winch though. I think I like the hydraulic operation much better than PTO style. You can feather the pull a lot like operating a crane. Tony
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-26-2008, 01:40 PM
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I did some more searched for a Werner model A winch and never found anything. But then I saw the model H 50.1 brochure on the Classic Unimogs site, and that's the winch that's on my truck. The brochure has English, too.

http://classicunimogs.com/manuals/we...0_brochure.pdf

Why it is a model H 50.1, but is labeled "A 50.1", I can't explain, but now I know what model it is.

The hydraulic pressure gauge certainly is useful! I intend to add such a gauge to my 406's also.

The gauge on my U-1300 maxes out at 125 bar (at a dot at top center of the gauge). I've had it max'ed out several times winching out some trees for a neighbor. The winch just keeps pulling until the hydraulic pressure reaches the bypass pressure, then the winch stops. So handy, and fool proof. I've also acquired a 40k lb snatch block for increasing the pull if needed. I also pulled a skid-steer out of a creek for another neighbor. That was fun! The tires on the mog never moved with the brakes locked, and the pressure didn't top 100 bar.

A few days ago I was pulling a log out of a low area and the 406 I was using to pull out about 30 logs would not pull the largest log. Too slick, and that 406 had the front blade and a 3-point on it instead of a winch. I got the U-1300 and the 40" x 16' yellow poplar log didn't even slow down the winch.

Bob
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-26-2008, 01:42 PM
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4 wheel parking brakes have been an option on MBU/SBU for ages since they started making them.

generally there is a shuttle valve switch (port 11) fitted via a "T" piece into the handbrake line (air), as the handbrake line is pressurised to release the brakes the shuttle valve cannot be overridden, when the pressure is dumped out of the handbrake line the shuttle valve switch can be overridden by air pressure (port 12) supplied by a 3/2 way valve (rotary on/off air switch or electro pneumatic 3/2 way valve) to the output of the shuttle valve switch to circuit 2 of the actuating cylinder (port 12).

thus with a shuttle valve switch in place the 4 wheel parking brake will not work unless the handbrake is set.

a crappy diagram
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-26-2008, 02:20 PM
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That's a nice diagram! Thanks,

Bob
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-27-2008, 07:10 AM Thread Starter
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Hey guys, I just wanted to say how much I appreciate all the info, this is a great bunch of guys and very knowledgeable as well. I was too busy moving dirt (filling in a swimming pool hole before rain moves in for the weekend) to get out to the Mog, but now that I have some extra time this weekend, I'll take a closer look at my truck and report back. Tony
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 06-28-2008, 03:02 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, been out checking a bunch of stuff on the truck. Put it up in the air to verify the axle and diff locks all work the way they're supposed to (work fine, no slack once they lock up). That also afforded me the opportunity to determine what really happens with the brakes and winch, etc. Here's what I have. Winch drive is locked at all times except when the dash button is pushed that allows free spool. You can hear the drum engage and disengage pneumatically and physically verify. The ein/aus switch on the floor by the winch handle only serves to engage or disengage all four wheel brakes. As Bob said, the cable tensioner is a passive mechanical device, no pneumatic actuation like some other winches I've had. Winch will wind in or pay out under power with ein/aus in either position. So, when I'm doing self recovery, I push the dash button to pull cable out to my anchor by hand. Then I push the dash button back in to engage the hydraulic motor on the winch and leave the ein/aus selector to aus and move the winch hydraulic handle to wind in cable and pull myself out. If I'm pulling another object with my truck as the anchor, I have the option of using the parking brake and locking just the rear wheels or turning to floor switch to ein to lock up all four wheels, whether the parking brake is on or not. Finally have it straight and all works very well, I'll make up some new markings and there should be no question as to how to make it do what I want. Thanks for the help. Bob, my winch ser # is H50 HR1 HD and it is listed as having a breaking load of 15090 daN, working load of 5000daN. 13mm cable, 55 meters long, working pressure 160 bar.
FWIW, I also used this opportunity to drain the trans and fill with Amsoil MTF. Amazing change! As discussed, shifts up or down through all gears, even the dreaded 4 to 5 like butter, even cold right out of the box. I'm liking this truck more all the time!
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