722.364 Removal and Rebuild: 1995 SL500 - Mercedes-Benz Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 11:30 AM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Extremist
 
duh_vinci's Avatar
 
Date registered: Feb 2015
Vehicle: 1995 SL320, 1995 SL500 ("Red Devil " project), 1998 C280, 2004 E500 4matic
Location: Virginia
Posts: 918
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Garage
(Thread Starter)
722.364 Removal and Rebuild: 1995 SL500

I must be nuts, but I don't want this project car to die. Bought it for parts, got it to run very smooth, even drove it for a month. It was a blast... Was is the key word. Leaky transmission not fixed by prior owner eventually said “I'm done”

Purchasing rebuild unit, calculating all the expenses associated with the swap (including supplies, shop and all) runs close to $3K with Sun Valey unit, I'm on the other side of the US, shipping $$. Financially makes no sense, as it would take this 1995 SL500 beyond of what it's worth. Use unit, as Martin accurately pointed out would be just as old, and possibly as tired, so basically waste of the time and money.

The only thing that makes sense to me, is doing a removal and full rebuild myself...

Martin, Joe – thank you for the encouragement, your shared threads and knowledge, it is very much appreciated! Konrad, thank you a great deal on the rebuild kit. Youtube and those who shared your hours of removal and rebuild of 722.XXX transmissions, watched, watched and re-watched, almost feel like a “youtube” pro mechanic!!!

And so we begin...

WP_20180929_14_00_24_Pro by Duh_Vinci, on Flickr

Failure is not an option!!! Draining fluids from the transmission and the torque converter now...

I will post some notes as the process continues, I'm sure I will have some questions as I go, and I appreciate your patience suggestions in advance!

Few very very helpful threads:

https://www.benzworld.org/forums/w21...l#post15400961

https://www.benzworld.org/forums/w14...l#post14394642



Regards,
D
MAVA and BenzWillMakeHerDance like this.
duh_vinci is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-29-2018, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Extremist
 
duh_vinci's Avatar
 
Date registered: Feb 2015
Vehicle: 1995 SL320, 1995 SL500 ("Red Devil " project), 1998 C280, 2004 E500 4matic
Location: Virginia
Posts: 918
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Garage
(Thread Starter)
Ok, so driver's side downpipe/crossover pipe had to be remove for clearance, apparently some models have this crossover section after the front flex disc, and if that is the case, the exhaust does needs no disassembly. Not me, why would it be easy?

WP_20180929_14_01_20_Pro by Duh_Vinci, on Flickr

At the end of the day, the dead weight is out of the car

WP_20180929_21_23_45_Pro by Duh_Vinci, on Flickr

With lift, this can be done in 2 hours or so... without, and no prior experience? If you doing it, spread the work over 2 days, I just wanted a full day off tomorrow, so I pressed on...

Regards,
D
slownrusty and MAVA like this.
duh_vinci is offline  
post #3 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-30-2018, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Extremist
 
duh_vinci's Avatar
 
Date registered: Feb 2015
Vehicle: 1995 SL320, 1995 SL500 ("Red Devil " project), 1998 C280, 2004 E500 4matic
Location: Virginia
Posts: 918
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Garage
(Thread Starter)
The master kit on it's way, and while I don't know yet if I will need new steels or not here are few important questions I have:

Since the steels are considered “selective” and vary in thickness quite a bit:

1) What thickness steels are used at the factory at the time of assembly?
2) Can various thickness steels be use in the given assembly to achieve the proper clearance (for example, K1 x3 of 3mm and x1 of 3.5mm steels combo) or should the snap rings of the different thickness be consider for proper clearance and keeping ALL the steels at the same thickness if possible?
3) If (1) is not know, would measuring the thickness of the originals, the “tooth” portion (since it does not wear out in time) give me fairly accurate reading of what steels I need to order?
4) Some “ultimate” kits come with steels as well, and these kits have the following:

K1 5.0mm (x4)
K2 3.0mm (x4)
B3 2.8mm (x4)


Is this a good basic start for most 722.3? If not, what would you recommend if I do need the steels...?

5) If I did have to order steels separately (aftermarket), B3 part numbers seem to be good across the board:

Steel, 722.3 / 722.5 Reverse Clutch (B3) [36Tx2.80x147x177] (.110 ") 36 Teeth (5.787" ID) 1981-97
Part number 68130BA (factory reference 126-272-6826)


6) but, K1 and K2 part numbers seem to be “bleeding through” and are transposed at so many vendors, so if anyone could provide the accurate K1 and K2 part numbers for above, I would be regretful!

Here is an example missmatch:

Steel, 722.3 /722.5 Direct Clutch (K1) (6Tx5.00x104x144) (.197 ") 6 Teeth (4.094" ID) 1981-97
Part number 68126BD (factory reference 126-272-3326).

Steel, 722.3 /722.5 4th Clutch (K2) (6Tx3.00x88x134) (.118”) 6 Teeth (3.464”ID) 1981-97
Part number 68120BA (factory reference 126-272-3626)


My understanding from looking at JPAT catalog (UK manufacturer of transmission parts )

http://jpat.co.uk/uploads/1/0/3/5/10...es_1b_722.pdf:

All K1 steels to have 68126XX numbers, all K2 steels to have 68120XX numbers... So, who is right? What numbers to use when ordering aftermarket steel in the US?

Transtar industries however, have it in reverse, K2 steels to have 68126XX all K1 steels to have 68120XX numbers...

http://www.shinseiauto.com/japanese/...atmercedes.pdf

WIT is the same as JPAT, uses 68126XX number for K1 steels, https://www.wittrans.com/parts?type=..._pump&part=126

and 68120XX for K2 steels

https://www.wittrans.com/parts?type=...lanet&part=120

While Cobra transmission is allover the place online, 68126B should never be a B3 steel https://cobratransmission.com/index....keyword=68126b

Do you see my little frustration?

Regards,
D
MAVA likes this.
duh_vinci is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-02-2018, 03:53 PM
Moderator
Outstanding Contributor
 
MAVA's Avatar
 
Date registered: May 2006
Vehicle: 93 SL500, 95 SL320, 96 S320, 98 S500, 2002 E320 4Matic Wagon & A little 91 5.0 FORD Mustang
Location: Sacramento, California & El Dorado Hills, California, USA
Posts: 7,861
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Quoted: 1233 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
What the trannie geniuses have not chimed in ??? They must have been on vacation

Look at your steels for scratching and burn damage as you do not need to replace them all...

Every clutch pack on ANY transmission of any make has three types of steels:

A) At the bottom is a single one that is toed-in to the center. Acts as a spring, and sometimes can be found broken on the 722.3-722.5

B) The lamination steels which suffer the beating of scratching(more like scoring), and the bluing(burning) which are consistent with every friction in the sandwich of that clutch pack.

C) The very top steel is probably two to three(or more) times as thick of the lamination steels used in the sandwich. It needs to be thick, so it does not flex against the sized clip(it is called a "spring clip", but has nothing springy about it)

You will need to go in for an inspection...

Looking good, you are clean and neat

Martin
duh_vinci likes this.
MAVA is offline  
post #5 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-02-2018, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Extremist
 
duh_vinci's Avatar
 
Date registered: Feb 2015
Vehicle: 1995 SL320, 1995 SL500 ("Red Devil " project), 1998 C280, 2004 E500 4matic
Location: Virginia
Posts: 918
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Garage
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAVA View Post
What the trannie geniuses have not chimed in ??? They must have been on vacation ...
Who says that trannie geniuses can take vacation?

Well, she is all apart (most of it)

WP_20181002_19_41_22_Pro by Duh_Vinci, on Flickr

B3 frictions are worn,

WP_20181001_20_11_35_Pro by Duh_Vinci, on Flickr

But the steels are very very good, almost no wear (definitely reusing these):

WP_20181001_20_07_35_Pro by Duh_Vinci, on Flickr

K1 is a different story, frictions are worn, flaky and bands have spots, black and scratches, replacing these:

WP_20181001_20_40_53_Pro by Duh_Vinci, on Flickr

K1 band is black and cracked, done

WP_20181001_20_13_55_Pro by Duh_Vinci, on Flickr

K2 clutch pack is the worse, looks like all need to be replaced, all worn out so bad, the clearance from the top plate to the snap ring 5.5mm :

WP_20181002_19_19_13_Pro by Duh_Vinci, on Flickr

B2 band is done, black, cracked:

WP_20181002_19_29_40_Pro by Duh_Vinci, on Flickr

Now, here is the proof that something has gotten VERY HOT inside, B2 band guide:

WP_20181002_19_31_43_Pro by Duh_Vinci, on Flickr

I did order the Transmission Goo, clutch press, various bit and pieces, so I will start taking K1 and K2 as soon as I get the press tool, then, I will have few questions to transmission geniuses (I promise, I would not abuse )

I'm done for the night, enjoyed taking it apart (indeed very hopeful that I can put it all back together)

Regards,
D
MAVA and Swany like this.
duh_vinci is offline  
post #6 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-03-2018, 06:13 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: '91 560SEC, '98 SL500
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,855
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Awesome thread, I admire your determination and fortitude
duh_vinci likes this.
slownrusty is offline  
post #7 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-03-2018, 06:06 PM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Extremist
 
duh_vinci's Avatar
 
Date registered: Feb 2015
Vehicle: 1995 SL320, 1995 SL500 ("Red Devil " project), 1998 C280, 2004 E500 4matic
Location: Virginia
Posts: 918
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Garage
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by slownrusty View Post
Awesome thread, I admire your determination and fortitude
Cheers my friend! If this was a pristine garaged car, I may not have been so brave, but I have the time and I'm treating this project car as a great learning opportunity!

Dear folks, please, help me understand the clutches of these transmission a little. For example, K1 Drum...

Would I be correct to understand that the steels can be used with various thickness for clearance compensation, i.e. 3.5mm+3.5mm+4.0mm+4.0mm and additional clearance can be adjusted by selecting the appropriate cup spring thickness (2.0mm, 2.5mm or 3.0mm as needed)?

And in my particular case (attached image), for a full clutch assembly I would have:

15____1 Stock Cup Spring
6_____5 Friction Discs
7_____1 Inner Steel Disc 2.0mm
8_____3.5mm + 3.5mm + 4.0mm + 4.0mm
10____1 Outer Steel Disc 4.5mm
11____1 Snap Ring 2.5mm

And that would give me approximately 1.0mm clearance that is well with in the specs... Am I on the right track?

Would there be any advantage in achieving the same clearance but use the following combination:

15_____1 Stock Cup Spring
6______5 Friction Discs
7______1 Inner Steel Disc 2.0mm
8______3.5mm + 4.0mm + 4.0mm + 4.0mm
10_____1 Outer Steel Disc 4.5mm
11_____1 Snap Ring 2.0mm

These measurements are just a rough guesstimate based on approximate measurements of what came out of the factory K1 drum...


Kindly thank you for any education!!!

Regards,
D

P.S. Martin, the Amazing_722.3_tranny_manual IS AMAZING wealth of info and illustrations!!!
Attached Images
 
duh_vinci is offline  
post #8 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-07-2018, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Extremist
 
duh_vinci's Avatar
 
Date registered: Feb 2015
Vehicle: 1995 SL320, 1995 SL500 ("Red Devil " project), 1998 C280, 2004 E500 4matic
Location: Virginia
Posts: 918
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Garage
(Thread Starter)
If anyone is doing this type of work for the first time, read, read, watch, watch, read and read and watch some more! You will be surprised how much can one learn through manuals and videos! I was horrified just by looking at all the internal components of these transmissions, but after spending some time with these clutches and drums, viewing diagrams and studying parts involved, their locations and such - no longer terrible!

While waiting for some parts to arrive, even figured out an easy way (for me) to do some assembly. For example, this is K1... The piston ring for this drum 126-270-13-50 is a very very tight fit. Freezer for 30 min and drops straight to the bottom, from there, just a little push, and fits like a glove! The actual piston, 126-272-20-31 I cut the old x-ray film strip, which is thinner than the LipWizard (which is also very useful tool) and result


Considering that my transmission got toasted pretty quickly, I wanted to replace just about all that is needed. Parts ordered are:

  • Full rebuild kit with all the gaskets and seals
  • Friction plates (K1, K2 and B3)
  • Steels for K1 and K2 (B3 are well reusable, no damage)
  • Filter
  • Drain plugs for converter and the pan
  • Sealing rings for converter and the pan
  • Sealing rings for coolant lines
  • Sealing ring for kick down solenoid
  • Seals for kick down solenoid
  • K1 Brake band
  • K2 Brake band
  • K2 band guide (since mine is toast)
  • Transmission mount

Fun project! Full reassembly next week (as time permits)...

Regards,
D
MAVA and rorypff like this.
duh_vinci is offline  
post #9 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-07-2018, 05:20 PM
Moderator
Outstanding Contributor
 
MAVA's Avatar
 
Date registered: May 2006
Vehicle: 93 SL500, 95 SL320, 96 S320, 98 S500, 2002 E320 4Matic Wagon & A little 91 5.0 FORD Mustang
Location: Sacramento, California & El Dorado Hills, California, USA
Posts: 7,861
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Quoted: 1233 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
D,

I guess you need the master kit

Yes, you can make up with less or more thick steels, but............

A)15 known a the "wavy plate" really only come in one thickness

B) The end steels must be thicker compared to the sandwich steels

C) For the 722.3 I would strive to get to the minimum clearance specification, but not go under as that clearance adds to shift delays, but too little may lock-up a gear/ excessively wear the frictions too...

You are doing a great job. You are super neat about it. Too neat

Look at you:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1959/...fbfaba1a_z.jpg

Look at me:

https://www.benzworld.org/forums/att...r-down-224.jpg

https://www.benzworld.org/forums/att...r-down-287.jpg

That was my 722.5 R129...

Keep it up... Lots of data today, yet when I did it. It seemed like I was only one in the planet doing this DIY work ten-years ago...

All the best,

Martin
duh_vinci likes this.
MAVA is offline  
post #10 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-08-2018, 02:16 PM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Extremist
 
duh_vinci's Avatar
 
Date registered: Feb 2015
Vehicle: 1995 SL320, 1995 SL500 ("Red Devil " project), 1998 C280, 2004 E500 4matic
Location: Virginia
Posts: 918
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Garage
(Thread Starter)
Cheers Martin!

Who cares, the end result is what counts! Besides, consider it is my first time, I have to be somewhat organized to keep track of what I'm doing! (and you have not see the other side of the garage btw, that is where everything else is piled up )

Thanks for the tips Martin, appreciate it very much! wittrans.com shipped out all new steels and K2 band, ebay scored factory MB K1 band and SGF made flex disc (mind as well change while I'm there), stopped by the dealership, ordered few extra bits and pieces.

Once I get the master kit (should be here in few days), I will see if those screws are included for K2 drum overhaul. I was a little apprehensive about doing it at first, but now, what the hell, why not, will grind off the rivets, will drill the holes, will make the new treads as outlined here

It's already out, so why not... And when we are done, and we run and drive fine again, would probably get to do the transmission cooler under the bumper somehow.

Regards,
D
MAVA likes this.
duh_vinci is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Roadster Forums > R129 SL-Class

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 

Title goes here

close
video goes here
description goes here. Read Full Story
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome