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post #2361 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 03:38 PM
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I can guarantee you none of this would have been an issue had the guy been white...

This same "guarantee" is often given about police profiling and misusing their authority to harass and abuse minorities. My own past experience is evidence of that guarantee being empty. I was constantly harassed and threatened and even falsely charged with breaking the law by police officers who profile someone who "appears" to be up to no good. My blond hair and blue eyes wasn't worth anything to keep overzealous cops away.

That doesn't mitigate the fact that law enforcement and the courts still have a built in bias against minorities, particularly African Americans, resulting in their being targeted, harassed and brutalized far more often than whites.

This just underscores the ongoing disgrace of U.S. law enforcement, where too many cops are racists, but the larger problem being the occupation invites individuals who are bullies and sadists who enjoy abusing their authority and have no moral compunction about victimizing any civilian they simply don't like.

Last edited by hbar; 07-13-2019 at 03:51 PM.
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post #2362 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 03:42 PM
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I've lived in places like that too, and in other places where there is a person who you check in with and they call the resident you intend to visit, and then have you sign in and the like, and I've visited people who lived in similar condos or apartments. It is not unusual. Or inconvenient. If you want to argue about it you are the one being inconvenient, unusual and that arouses whatever suspicion needs to be raised to call a cop. The point of the intercom is to make sure you keep yourself and the rest of the residents in the building secure. I fail to see why complying with the rules those who's residence you are visiting ask you to is such a big deal. Would you feel the same if random people just walked into your house?

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post #2363 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 04:18 PM
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I've lived in places like that too, and in other places where there is a person who you check in with and they call the resident you intend to visit, and then have you sign in and the like, and I've visited people who lived in similar condos or apartments. It is not unusual. Or inconvenient. If you want to argue about it you are the one being inconvenient, unusual and that arouses whatever suspicion needs to be raised to call a cop. The point of the intercom is to make sure you keep yourself and the rest of the residents in the building secure. I fail to see why complying with the rules those who's residence you are visiting ask you to is such a big deal. Would you feel the same if random people just walked into your house?

Jim
I understand the reasoning here and I don't disagree. I see it as being entirely about the difference in attitudes from different people when they see others breaking the rules.

Jaywalking is actually illegal but people do it all the time. It's illegal not just because it endangers the safety of the jaywalker, but it presents an accident risk to drivers who might slam on their brakes or swerve out of their lane to avoid hitting a pedestrian in the road. Still, if a driver stopped to yell at the jaywalker and then called the cops on them, they'd probably be considered a busybody with an irrational obsession about the rules.

Hitchhiking isn't illegal except in certain high speed traffic areas where it might also be a hazard to public safety. That doesn't mean I call the cops when I see someone hitchhiking on a major highway. In fact, I always stop and give them a lift if I have the room.

The last time I picked up a hitchhiker was last summer when it was very hot and humid. The guy was walking and pulling his bike alongside him when I gave him a lift. He said that his bike had a flat tire and he was the victim of theft when someone had stolen his backpack with his wallet and cellphone. I guessed he was in his mid 20's.

I took him to the NIU campus where he lived, which was about 15 miles down the highway. We introduced ourselves and he explained he was an economics teacher at the University. I detected just a tiny trace of French accent and I asked him if he was from France. He confirmed that was where he was born and he lived there until he was 18. He said he was surprised that I guessed his country of origin given that he was black and most Americans assumed he was African American.

Despite the fact that the temperature was in the upper 90's with high humidity, I suspect that if I hadn't picked him up he would have had to walk the entire 15 miles. Unless someone called the cops on him first.

Last edited by hbar; 07-13-2019 at 04:21 PM.
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post #2364 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 05:00 PM
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No you can't, there are a lot of valid things to say about this subject and the culture that got us here, but this statement isn't one of them, you can't guarantee shit, like Jim said the guy "rushed" the door, I woulda said something, does that make me a racist?

"trespassing while black" isn't one of those valid reasons the guy shouldn't have been confronted


The fact that we're talking about it proves my point. This wouldn't be an issue if the guy was white.
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post #2365 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 05:08 PM
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I understand the reasoning here and I don't disagree. I see it as being entirely about the difference in attitudes from different people when they see others breaking the rules.

Jaywalking is actually illegal but people do it all the time. It's illegal not just because it endangers the safety of the jaywalker, but it presents an accident risk to drivers who might slam on their brakes or swerve out of their lane to avoid hitting a pedestrian in the road. Still, if a driver stopped to yell at the jaywalker and then called the cops on them, they'd probably be considered a busybody with an irrational obsession about the rules.

Hitchhiking isn't illegal except in certain high speed traffic areas where it might also be a hazard to public safety. That doesn't mean I call the cops when I see someone hitchhiking on a major highway. In fact, I always stop and give them a lift if I have the room.

The last time I picked up a hitchhiker was last summer when it was very hot and humid. The guy was walking and pulling his bike alongside him when I gave him a lift. He said that his bike had a flat tire and he was the victim of theft when someone had stolen his backpack with his wallet and cellphone. I guessed he was in his mid 20's.

I took him to the NIU campus where he lived, which was about 15 miles down the highway. We introduced ourselves and he explained he was an economics teacher at the University. I detected just a tiny trace of French accent and I asked him if he was from France. He confirmed that was where he was born and he lived there until he was 18. He said he was surprised that I guessed his country of origin given that he was black and most Americans assumed he was African American.

Despite the fact that the temperature was in the upper 90's with high humidity, I suspect that if I hadn't picked him up he would have had to walk the entire 15 miles. Unless someone called the cops on him first.
There is a difference between a decision you make that affects you and one you make that affects you and others, who may not agree with you and would argue you have no business making decisions that affect them without consulting them first, and especially when your decision creates circumstances that are different than what they expected when it relates to their personal security. But I get it. You are awoke and empowered to do such things because of your awokedness.

Providing examples of laws that are routinely broken and for which you stand by and do nothing, or aid and abet the scofflaw amounts to diddly squat. Unless it harms someone, at which point I'd like to see you stand up and tell the cops you saw the enabling event occurring but stood by and did nothing and explain why. The point of the intercom as a security feature. Typically the lease you sign to be able to rent such an apartment or condo requires complying with the rules. I think the guy who tailgated into the building was flat wrong. It was not subzero with a howling wind, or flooding or anyone outside threatening him. No extenuating circumstances. So, he was wrong, he should have followed the rules. People that break laws because other people do and then get defensive when they get caught are like kids who dumb things and blame Johnny, and Tommy and Dicky who also do the same dumb thing. I think the guy basically agreed he was wrong, to his credit. Not sure what the defense of tailgating your way into places you are not supposed to sneak into is all about.

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post #2366 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 05:10 PM
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The fact that we're talking about it proves my point. This wouldn't be an issue if the guy was white.
If your point is that if the guy was white and the cops were called nothing would have been made of it since there would be next no audience wanting to hiss at someone about it - a white guy telling another white guy to follow the rules - you are right. Nothing awoked about that.

Jim
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post #2367 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 05:39 PM
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The fact that we're talking about it proves my point. This wouldn't be an issue if the guy was white.

We're talking about it because some people assume it wouldn't have happened at all if the trespasser was white.
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post #2368 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 06:43 PM
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There is a difference between a decision you make that affects you and one you make that affects you and others, who may not agree with you and would argue you have no business making decisions that affect them without consulting them first, and especially when your decision creates circumstances that are different than what they expected when it relates to their personal security.
But that's not what was happening here. The guy made the decision to call the cops and I personally believe that's an overreaction. But I've already said that I understand why he verbally challenged the guy to identify himself and why he asked him to leave the lobby and follow the buzz-in procedure.

I do object to your suggestion that my own preference to mind my own business because I don't really give a shit about what I consider to be a trivial infraction of the house rules is a purposeful act that endangers public safety.

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But I get it. You are awoke and empowered to do such things because of your awokedness.
I've heard that expression before and it seems to be used to describe people who are morally progressive, particularly in comparison to others who are less enlightened. This implies a smug sense of superiority.

I think it's pretty arrogant to try to apply that attitude to me when I haven't said anything that even suggests I believe I'm morally superior to anyone else. I just behave the way I think is the right thing at the time and try not to judge others too much for how they behave, unless their behavior might be harmful to others. Let me repeat: I would never have reacted the way Mr. Cuker did, but I'm not about to condemn him for it, either.

In my first post on the subject I put forth an argument that Cuker acted out of racist intentions, but if you read my entire post, you'll see that it was a hypothetical argument where the assumption of bigotry was only given for the purpose of furthering the discussion.


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Providing examples of laws that are routinely broken and for which you stand by and do nothing, or aid and abet the scofflaw amounts to diddly squat. Unless it harms someone, at which point I'd like to see you stand up and tell the cops you saw the enabling event occurring but stood by and did nothing and explain why.

I agree with you. Where I think you and I are having differing opinions is our relative estimation of the seriousness of "tailgating" into an apartment lobby. Mr. Cukor think it's a genuine issue of public safety serious enough to call the police. You obviously agree with him. I just don't.

Let me say that I have, in the past, personally taken action when I believe circumstances warrant it. But life is complicated and everyone's judgement of what constitutes actionable circumstances is unique to themselves.

As an example, I play in a rock band and typically play bar gigs. Which means I've seen more than a few bar fights. My policy is to stay as far away from that shit as possible and if someone decides to call the police I'm just going to huddle up with by bandmates by our gear and hope no one notices us.

But there are other times when I will physically intervene in a fight. About 20 years ago, I was at a public park where I witnessed a local man, who I knew was gay, being savagely beaten by another local man, who I knew was a homophobe and bigot. The victim was huddled on the ground in the fetal position while the perpetrator was repeatedly kicking him in the head and chest, while calling him horribly vulgar names that clearly showed he was offended that the guy was gay.

This was before cellphones were common and I couldn't call the cops so I immediately intervened in the altercation because I really feared that the victim was in danger of serious injury. I forced the attacker away from his victim at which point he attacked me. I used my experience in MA and put him on the ground and made sure he couldn't get back up with out doing any real damage to him. Others called the police and they arrested the perpetrator.

Because this was a small town and both of the individuals were local, I had to deal with the consequences of my decision to intervene, which I knew would be the case when I dove in. The owner of the business whee I worked was a friend of the attacker and I was let go shortly after that although the official reason was because they just didn't have enough work for me to do and this was just a routine layoff. Other friends of his blacklisted me and I avoided going into a couple of restaurants because I was genuinely afraid they might spit in my food, or worse.

Some friends of the victim considered me a hero. I was confident from the beginning that the perpetrator posed no real danger to my safety so it wasn't an act of bravery on my part and it wasn't heroic. But just like many of the local residents were pissed off at me for irrational reasons, others looked up to me for equally irrational reasons.

The huge amount of attention being paid to Mr. Cukor is a greatly magnified version of that scenario. Millions of Americans condemn his as a racist, or at least a busybody. Millions of others see him as going out of his way to take a stand for law and order and is being punished simply for trying to ensure the safety of the residents in his building.

I really don't know what to think about him and can't judge his moral character because I don't share the same life experience that he had.

Last edited by hbar; 07-13-2019 at 06:51 PM.
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post #2369 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 06:55 PM
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The fact that we're talking about it proves my point. This wouldn't be an issue if the guy was white.
We're talking about it for a few reasons:

It wouldn't have gotten media attention if the guy woulda been white

There have been a rash of calls to Police for "walking/barbecuing/being inside their house/existing while black", This is an actual thing we all acknowledge. This is not a good example of one of those times

you're making unsubstantiated guarantees that are impossible to prove


My experience matches Hbars, as a long hair from San Francisco in the deep south in the early seventies I was subject to gross bigotry, as the only white student in Jeremiah Johnson, a school out third street by Candlestick Park I was subjected to unimaginable bigotry, I know what bigotry looks and feels like, from both directions, this isn't a good example, you're guarantee doesn't hunt, sorry

I was out in front of my place a few years ago washing my car and this black dude pulls up looking lost, he's checking his GPS, driving an Uber and is clearly frustrated, my block was funny in that when you come up Professional Center Parkway 300 channing is indicated to be up the hill on the rightt, I lived at 250 thereabouts, so my street had 200-400 on it but for some inexplicable reason 300 Channing was another 50 yards up Professional then you turned LEFT not right, so we had lost people up driving around all the time, it was a super steep isolated cul-de-sac, anyhow, I asked him if he was lost and needed help, "fuck you you motherfucker" was his response, I instantly understood he understood my question to be "why are you in my neighborhood while black?" The more I tried to explain hey, 300 is up the other direction, I see this all the time, the more angry he got until I finally gave up and said something along the lines of "God Bless you Brother, be safe" and returned to washing my car.

My point is everything isn't racism, and in fact y'all have a lot of allies, yes Racism has reared it's ugly head in our country again, not that it ever went away, but I think the media has gotten a bit over-zealous (what else is new) and stop de-legitimizing your allies experiences as humans, I have news for you all, "white" isn't really a thing if you're white, theres class, race (Italians/Irish/French/Jewish etc) white people kill the SHIT out of each other, and are bigoted against each other, please try to understand some of us know where you are coming from.

Hbar has tried to explain it like 50 times since I've been here, and his experience has been mocked and de-legitimatized. It's like if @cowboyt was explaining his experience with racism and bigotry to a feminist Liberal and she said, "you can't understand what it's like to be oppressed because you're not a woman, only women understand what it's like to be oppressed"

You know that look he'd give her? That incredulous look as if to say "are you fucking kidding me?" and he'd walk away without even trying to explain because you can't reach that level of stupidity?

I look at you and Cowboys posts like that every time you guys shit all over HBar for trying to explain he actually understands and he's on your side, and I don't even bother trying to explain, because at that point you're suffering from "terminal uniqueness", nobody can understand what it's like to be you, and actual medical condition I find to be as irritating as Trumpesque" whataboutism. HBar has consistently decried racism and offered support, he's been unwavering yet I see slavering attacks on him for his racism and xenophobia where none exists, he explains calmly again and again, but nope, RACIST!!!!

anyhow, carry on
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Last edited by The Proctologist; 07-13-2019 at 07:15 PM.
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post #2370 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 07:00 PM
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My point is everything isn't racism, and in fact y'all have a lot of allies, yes Racism has reared it's ugly head in our country again, not that it ever went away, but I think the media has gotten a bit over-zealous (what else is new) and stop de-legitimizing your allies experiences as humans, I have news for you all, "white" isn't really a thing if you're white, theres class, race (Italians/Irish/French/Jewish etc) white people kill the SHIT out of each other, and are bigoted against each other, please try to understand some of us know where you are coming from.
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