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post #2351 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by hbar View Post
Let's take it as a given that Cuker is a bigot who assumed the man was trespassing and up to no good just because he's black. Why should Cuker's employer need to explain anything? He wasn't representing their company.

I see there is a lot of sentiment that Cuker be publicly ostracized and many people think he should lose his job on the grounds that his employer doesn't want a bigot working for them.

Maybe so, but the man has an Ivy league degree and extensive credentials in software engineering so he shouldn't have any problem immediately finding a new job.

Which means those who want him punished will need to keep checking up on him and blacklist him so no company will want to hire him.

I will also presume that any organizations Cuker belongs to will want to kick him out as well.
Here is Cukor's statment regarding the incident.

Quote:
A chance encounter this past weekend has upended my life in unexpected ways. Many of you know the parts that you've seen — the video of a conversation that happened outside my home. I'd like to share some extra details about that event that I think add some important context.

First just some background on that day:
- I was leaving my building with my child to take him to a friend's house.
- Like many in San Francisco, I live in a building with a security callbox and residents in the building count on that security measure.
- I noticed Wesly Michel caught the door and entered the building without using the callbox. I did what came naturally and asked where he was going. I want to be clear on this point, this is something I do regularly, regardless of who the other person is.
- I offered to hold the door open while he used the callbox to contact his friend.
- As I learned later, Wesly was a friend of a guest of a resident in the building. The building resident was not expecting Wesly.
- When the encounter turned confrontational and I couldn't resolve it myself, I called the police.

Here's where the complexity begins. I was coming into this situation with my unique history.

My father was murdered outside his home by a trespasser who he confronted alone. For my child's safety, my safety and that of the building, I felt it was necessary to get help in this situation. Furthermore, I've encountered trespassers in my building and we've been robbed several times. This is not uncommon in San Francisco and the bad actors are all different colors.

I now realize that Wesly was reacting based on his unique history as well. Unfortunately there is a terrible pattern of people calling the authorities regarding people of color for no other reason than their race. The last thing I ever intended was to echo that history — and I'm sorry my actions caused Wesly to feel unfairly targeted due to his race.

I believe people are good at heart. It's our past experiences and fears that cloud even our best intentions. I hope Wesly will read this and understand my history as I have tried to understand his.
My 89 year old mother has a police record. No, not for what one would imagine.

In the summer of 1963, she was part of a group of women from the Mt. Pisgah MB Church on Chicago's South Side that traveled to Louisiana (her home state) for the purpose of registering Black voters. During that trip she was beaten and jailed by the Monroe LA police. My grandfather had to drive to Monroe to free her. She still has the scar on her head from a cop's billy club and, although she's suffering from advanced dementia, she will proudly show you the scar if asked. Some days she doesn't recall the name of her only child but she recalls quite vividly every second of the Monroe episode.

As much as I sympathize with him for the death of his father, I just can't bring myself to give him or those with similar attitudes a pass.

In essence, we ALL have a history. The true test of men is whether or not we allow our history to become our legacy.

RE: his "Ivy League degree" and whatnot, that would (at least on the surface) demonstrate he's not an idiot. Again, no pass in my book. The man WORKS for a "social media" concern, for cryin' out loud. Surely he can't be that shocked at the reaction to his action.

I guess I'm getting jaded in my advanced years......but there hasn't been a year in MY life where this sort of thing wasn't the norm. After more than a half century of it, day after day, year after year, I'm pretty damn near out of "forgiveness" for this nonsense..

...and that's MY history.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/09/us/ch...ent/index.html
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post #2352 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 08:12 PM
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I guess I'm getting jaded in my advanced years......but there hasn't been a year in MY life where this sort of thing wasn't the norm. After more than a half century of it, day after day, year after year, I'm pretty damn near out of "forgiveness" for this nonsense..

...and that's MY history.


I have a history as well. At age 15, I adopted the long hair, weathered blue jeans, rock band t-shirts, and leather jacket look, which meant that I stood out as a non conformist in the 80's.

I didn't care that classmates and teachers gave me shit about it, but when I started driving, I got stopped and hassled by the police a couple times a month. By the time I was 20, I have officers pull guns on me twice, both times because I was doing my job as a nighttime janitor and the cops assumed I was a robber.

I was once pulled over after leaving a friend's house at 2am for no reason. The officer lied and said I had cut off another vehicle and I was charged with reckless driving. That fat blob of dough actually poked his finger in my chest and said I hung out with the wrong crowd and I needed to stay out of his town. The only thing that kept me from beating the tar out of him was the certainty that I'd be lucky to get away with a long prison sentence.

This harassment and abuse continued into my 20s until I got married and had a kid, and my wife finally made me cut my hair and conform to normal appearances. When I was no longer harassed by cops, I realized that their standard operating procedure was to profile the public by appearances.

My blond hair and blue eyes meant nothing when I looked like a drug dealer or street thug. And since I had lived in blue collar neighborhoods with large minority populations I knew that persons of color got the same shit treatment and worse, regardless of how well they dressed and how presentable they appeared.

There are two different ways I could use my history. I could resent how African Americans complain about being harassed and justify my resentment by reasoning that a pasty white person like myself put up with years of undeserved harassment at the hands of biased cops and I don't whine about it so they shouldn't either.

But I chose a different philosophy. I can't force people with positions of authority to treat others with fairness but I can control my own actions. I always assume that other people are trustworthy until proven otherwise, regardless of superficial appearances.

I've never failed to pick up a hitchhiker or stop and help someone who looks like they may need it - no matter what they look like. And it's never resulted in anything bad happening to me.

I've been in exactly the same situation as Mr. Cuker many times where someone has "tailgated" into my apartment and I've never even thought about calling the police.

To me, pre-judging others based on trivial reasons (like skin color) is among one of the worst sins a human can commit. Tragically, it's 2019, and African Americans still have a legitimate reason to be angry about being victims of widespread racial bias and profiling.

Last edited by hbar; 07-09-2019 at 08:25 PM.
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post #2353 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 09:53 AM
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I have a history as well. We all do.

It's interesting that hbar got crap for his long hair, rock band T-shirts, leather jacket look, and all that he describes. Maybe that's how Chicago was. In Seattle, though, he might well have become a celebrity! Long blonde hair, blue eyes, rocker-type dress? Oh, yeah. I never heard of the police harassing any such person. I did hear, though, of them mistreating Black people, even if well-dressed. Sir Mix-A-Lot tells a story about how he got pulled over by six cop cars, all full of White officers, for driving his Lamborghini, while Black. No, he did not exceed the speed limit.

https://kuow.org/stories/black-man-w...ily-stressful/

And here's the lyrics to the song he wrote about this problem.

https://genius.com/Sir-mix-a-lot-one...no-case-lyrics

When I was living in Seattle going to school, I had White females clutching their purses and crossing the street to get away from me, 1950's style. I even had them look behind them, see me walking to class, and actually start *running* from me. This would happen at all times of the year, and even more so during the summer (I happen to tan rather well). Yes, we do actually have a few days of sun in Seattle! :-) I was dressed in either a T-shirt or a golf shirt, with jeans that actually fit me properly (no "baggie bottoms" or other such nonsense), and either tennis/running shoes or Birkenstock knock-offs. In short, I dressed like a typical Seattleite. Oh, and being a student, I often had my backpack full of books with me.

Seattle is definitely a so-called "liberal" city, overwhelmingly voting Democrat and being enviro-greenie (that last part, I do like and share the belief). "Crunchy" is a word often associated with the people of Seattle. I learned, through my classes, that these White females that would do that were also typically feminists who voted Democrat and claimed to be "civil-rights minded". I saw a bunch of them in the University's NOW chapter the one time I went.

This was in the 1990's. I could hardly believe it. That stuff's supposed to be an artifact of the 1950's and 1960's, not the dot-com era! But it was and apparently still is.

Interesting what hbar mentions about hitchhikers. I was driving my pickup truck ("that thar" truck, as Dad used to call it) one night, close to the university. A couple of younger Black men were hitchhiking. I thought, "what the heck, I survived those 'evil Moslems' in the Middle East, I think I'll be OK with a couple of hitchhikers." Was slightly out of my way, but not too far from the girlfriend's house on Capitol Hill. They were so grateful. I reflected afterward that there were probably very few Seattleites who would've given those two young men a ride.

During this same period, I heard Dad tell me of the racial discrimination that he was facing in Las Vegas, to where where he had recently moved. What he was describing would be considered actionable from a legal perspective. I actually doubted what he was telling me, it was so outrageous and blatant...until I got there. I lived in Las Vegas for a year and a half, and I saw what he was talking about. Couldn't believe this was happening in 1998, almost the 21st Century. But it was, and I saw him go through it. Wow.

Then I moved to Virginia and saw Confederate flags and President Barack Obama's head being used as the bullseye on targets. People were shooting at those targets. One time, when I was the RSO-on-duty, a couple of asshats brought in such a target. That time, I could do something about it, and I threw them off of my range.

And, of course, there's what I saw from the White feminists in the 2008 election. If they could've called the police on Barack and stopped his candidacy that way, and thought they could get away with it, I'm sure they would have.

And that's why I don't give Chris Cukor a "pass", either. Matter of fact, I'd say this Mr. Cukor is another example of why they kneel.
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Last edited by cowboyt; 07-10-2019 at 10:00 AM.
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post #2354 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbar View Post
explain why so many Christians - especially the more devout ones - believe that Adam and Eve were the first two people made on the 6th day of creation (about 6,000 years ago) and a devil disguised as a snake tricked them into eating an apple which prompted angels to chase them out of their garden paradise with a sword.
Because in the Dark Ages, christian priests eliminated the Jewish practice of "midrash" that required them to intelligently interpret scripture in relation to the current times - (something the "jesus" persona would have been doing as a Jew) - and replaced it with "gospel", making their decisions of what the bible said into the unwavering "wooord of GODDD".

And, that included purposely using (often inaccurate) translation decisions that didn't account for the different meanings of Hebrew words at the time written thousands of years previous.

This also has become the basis for the vastly increased oppression allowed to be legalized, especially during the Trump administration, against groups of americans that conservatives don't like.

And, now america is "great" "again".
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post #2355 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 08:37 AM
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I usually agree with the perspectives expressed about Mr. Cuker, however, in this instance I am not convinced the guy he confronted, because he is black, gets a free pass into the building without being buzzed in per the building security rules. The "buzzed in" mechanism does not detect the person at the door is black; buzzing the person in or not is the purview of the person on the other end of the intercom. If the point being made it is not OK to tell a black person they have to live by the same rules as the rest of the people who are visiting someone in the building because they are black, and the ages of actual racism and persecution justify this free pass we are on a bad path.

What I have seen is the black guy agreed he "tailgated" his way into the building. He should have been buzzed in. Cuker did the right thing to ask. Calling the cops was likely unwarranted in this instance but when asked to leave and get buzzed in the guy refused. It is not up to Cuker to determine why the black guy was not buzzed in, and the fact that the guy's friend showed up is also no reason to assume it was OK for the guy to tailgate his way inside the building.

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post #2356 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 10:22 AM
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Has anyone ever been held actionable if something bad happened because they let someone "tailgate." Speaking legally not personable.
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post #2357 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 10:29 AM
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Has anyone ever been held actionable if something bad happened because they let someone "tailgate." Speaking legally not personable.
Not sure if that is practical. If the "tailgater" is intent on getting in and is violent you are subjecting yourself to added danger. Asking people to endanger themselves is less practical than calling the cops.

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post #2358 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 12:07 PM
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What I have seen is the black guy agreed he "tailgated" his way into the building. He should have been buzzed in. Cuker did the right thing to ask. Calling the cops was likely unwarranted in this instance but when asked to leave and get buzzed in the guy refused. It is not up to Cuker to determine why the black guy was not buzzed in, and the fact that the guy's friend showed up is also no reason to assume it was OK for the guy to tailgate his way inside the building.

Jim


I can guarantee you none of this would have been an issue had the guy been white...
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post #2359 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 01:02 PM
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I can guarantee you none of this would have been an issue had the guy been white...
No you can't, there are a lot of valid things to say about this subject and the culture that got us here, but this statement isn't one of them, you can't guarantee shit, like Jim said the guy "rushed" the door, I woulda said something, does that make me a racist?

"trespassing while black" isn't one of those valid reasons the guy shouldn't have been confronted
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post #2360 of 2393 (permalink) Old 07-13-2019, 03:31 PM
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I've lived in buildings like this and I've visited friends who've lived there. "Tailgating" happens all the time and I've seen it happen countless times. I've never cared enough to say anything about it or even let it occupy my mind for more than a moment.

But there are some people who just can't abide others breaking the rules. For whatever reason, they have to say something, and if that doesn't resolve the situation, they'll call the police to get them to enforce the rules. There are even some people who will resort to personal vigilantism and confront the "suspicious" person with preemptive violence.

It's up to you to decide whether or not Cukor's motivation for being a stickler for the rules is reasonable. I don't know how my own tolerance for "suspicious" strangers would be affected if one of my loved ones was murdered by a deranged trespasser.
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