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New non running 95 CL500 project car bought sight unseen

3K views 41 replies 8 participants last post by  JC220 
#1 · (Edited)
Non running CL500 project car!

Hi all and welcome to this thread!

I have nearly a dozen classic Mercedes 124 and 140 models collected over the years which I restore and repair myself. I have a genuine original Star setup and all of the appropriate tools to repair the cars as DIY. My latest project is a 1995 C140 CL500 Coupe – 73k miles and full service history + MOT’s to back it up. Caveat is that this poor girl has not started up for 4 years+ So i bought it as a “trade sale” no returns – sight unseen from another country. Oops :eek. In my defence it was a very decent price – these CL500 140 coupes command strong values over here and this one was priced just decently enough that it sparked my interest even being dead essentially. I think ill save a few K overall and have a very nice example if all goes to plan.

This is only to start generating the thoughts of the forum – as to how I tackle this when the car reaches me. It has to be collected by lorry, taken to ferry in England and over to N Ireland to my home. I am told I will have the car Friday next week or Saturday at latest. So about 5 days out let’s say – a few semi sleepless nights still ahead!

The seller is a car dealer and to be honest he sounded genuine enough describing the car. He has owned it for 4 years himself and decided to move it on now due to having to fork out labour rates to diagnose since he can’t work at it himself. Here is what he told me about the car in summary:

  • Past owner had it 10 years. It was garaged the whole time and they were selling the property snd at this stage it’s battery was flat. They got the AA out and the car would not jump start at all – so they ended up selling it on as it was due to having to move home. And this dealer had bought it - he may well have knew these people I'm not sure (It did not see a garage at this point – only the AA)
  • This dealer bought the car for himself as a project and after a few months entrusted it to a local mechanic to take it on and get it running.
  • This mechanic diagnosed initially the eco wiring. So the engine loom (I presume upper only... not sure) was sent to Poland and pro re-wired. The mechanic installed that and no difference. Cost £800
  • Then the ETA was suspect ECO. So it was removed and sent for rebuilding in UK – for £170. No difference.
  • 8 replacement Fuel injectors were obtained also – possibly fitted too not entirely sure but 8x new fuel injectors are involved somewhere for sure. Either they will be already installed in the motor or laying in the trunk.....
  • Then he said it needed a new starter motor because it sounded “too slow”. New starter fitted to the car – cost £380. Then he said oh- the battery is dead too – we need one of them.
  • At this stage the dealer started to ask simple things like – “did you drain the fuel tank and check filters etc?”. Mechanic said he had not done that yet – and the dealer realised he was less than ideal to be working at it and basically had no ability to repair these era Mercedes.

So it was taken back to the dealer’s private lot and stayed there with other projects – and sat for a total of 4 years. He realised he had too mmay projects and would not be likely to get this car sorted any time soon. Very recently he had the car sent for pro repaint / rust repair of both front fenders and he offered the car for trade sale “as is” basis. Still not a peep to start up.
 
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#2 ·
NOW – I am paraphrasing here. Joining up and summarising tit bits of info I was given and receipts emailed to me. Do I take all this info as gospel? NO he is a dealer so won't let the truth get in the way of a good story. But I can only consider what he has told me in good faith.

I will not know the full extent of what the mechanic disturbed or worked at for myself until the car gets here. Hopefully they did not mess with much as that will add work for me.

What I am wondering is what would cause a m119.970 to go stone dead overnight? I want to be ready and hit the car hard as soon as it gets here so to speak. My plan of attack is:

  • Drain old petrol. Drop tank strainer and check condition. Fit new fuel filter. Re-fill with 4 – 6 gallon fresh super unleaded.
  • Install all new fuses and clean the contacts – including the base module.
  • Install new battery
  • Clean battery terminals and check smaller + wire to base modules for tightness
  • Hook up fuel pressure test gauge
  • Fit a injector noid test lamp
  • Crank it over and see for myself how the car is behaving.
  • Check with a timing lamp for spark at the plug lead(s)
  • Does this sound logical – any additional steps I should do?

I am wondering if the fault might be:

Dead EZL or other module– due to AA jump start
Failing diodes in LH module - non running fuel pump
Failed fuel pump relay or FPR
Bad crank sensor
Distributer cap, insulator, moisture or other ignition system failure
It has IR remote - possible problem with immobiliser or other electrical gremlin

I will use instinct and experience on my 500E m119 to listen for the ETA powering up, fuel pump running and check for spark etc etc. I have a wealth of good used and tested M119 spares, ETAs (w140 cable), modules, MAF etc on the shelf and I could borrow the dist caps and coils off my 500E just to test. I am tempted to buy a new spare crank sensor and have it on hand. A new 920 Amp 019 Battery is already on order for when the car arrives.

I took a gamble on this car going by the photos and the history that backs up the low miles. I will not know exactly what I've bought or exactly what the non start symptoms are until it arrives and I see for myself. If I am very fortunate it will be something simple like the fuel pump not running - or it could be an electrical gremlin that will take days or weeks to trace. I am fully aware of all of that so let's think positive here for the moment!
 
#4 ·
You've touched on all the right things to check. I'd check base module fuses first, listen for the fuel pump to run a few seconds when you first turn the key to on, then run scans of the engine related modules. Since the immobilizer function only affects the starter on 95's, as long as the starter functions, you can look elsewhere.
 
#9 ·
I have not viewed or taken delivery yet Martin. I will get the car next weekend so about 5-6 days out still. Then I will jump on it and start providing more informaiton on exactly what it's symtoms are. I have all test equipment - Star, fuel gauges etc at my disposal so hopefully it won't be too hard to pinpoint if it's ignition or fuel etc on the first day it arrives.

I have a 1992 500E which I could borrow parts from as a test only but also lots of m119 spares on the shelf including a w140 5.0 LH module
 
#11 ·
Yes I keep a new boxed Bosch Fuel Pressure regulator on the shelf so if I suspect the FPR at all that will go in. Did you have no start symtoms when yours went out? This car will not start up or run at all from what I am told. But turns on the starter motor and has Eco Junk addressed already.
 
#16 ·
Thanks guys - yes it looks good in the photos at least! I hope it looks as good in the flesh when it turns up!

No sign of when it's due yet - its killing me! Impatient to get it here and start diagnosing why it wont start.

That's cool about the wheels- I did not hear that name for them before and had a Google there. They appear quite sought after rims! For sure I will keep them on the car and possibly have them pro refrusbushed if they aren't in good condition. I do have a funny feeling the dealer mentioned he had the wheels done himself though.
 
#17 ·
My Coupe is in the country now - I am getting it brought to my home today so when I get back from work later I can see just what i have dragged home - fingers crossed it's as good as the photos.

I will begin basic troubleshooting tonight in the hope of determining at least if it has:

Compression
Fuel (Squirt easy start into intake and see if it's tries to fire up)
Ignition spark

The new 019 battery has arrived also so it will be fitted and I'll get a first idea of how good or bad the electronics are in the car. (Belt butlers, windows that sort of thing) My c124 coupes can have failed window motors from standing - but the w140 build quality is super high so I do hope it will mostly be OK.
 
#18 ·
Got the car home tonight - not good!! Engine is not turning.

It has a pro re-wired engine harness and rebuilt ETA. I know the dealer fitted a new starter motor about 6 months ago – the invoice was with the car. That is really the only invoice he has produced for work done since he had the car what he claimed was 4 years. Again it’s a dealer so don’t believe a word of it! His story was the owners of the coupe had it in their garage and when selling the house the car would not run so they sold it on as is in the panic sort of thing. This dealer had it and tried to get it running. The car was offered at about 30% roughly of what the actual market value is, (If it were running as normal, with those low miles and the history it has to back them up) and looked very clean in the photos so I took the gamble – bit the bullet and got it shipped 500 miles to me + ferry trip. So bought sight unseen and trusting a dealer - oops. To be fair I was 90% sure there would be a major engine issue and still thought it was worth a go since I will still be well under the going rate of one with higher miles than this example (If I have to buy another full motor).

Tonight when I got home to see the car for the first time I put a new battery in it and tried to turn over with key. Click – nada. Put a breaker bar on the crank bolt and it’s stuck solid. Won’t turn either direction at all. Not even 1mm. Here are observations so far in the limited daylight I had to investigate this evening:

No coolant. Not sure if related or not. Could be someone drained it for whatever reason whilst laid up in recent years.
Engine oil is good on the dipstick and clean looking.
Took the spark plugs out and all look good. No signs of oil or mechanical damage etc. Normal looking plugs. (Made no difference taking them out – engine still stuck)
I removed the oil filter and took it apart to carefully inspect both sides of the pleat paper. I was looking for signs of metal flecks / bearing material which might indicate if the engine suffered mechanical damage in the past. Filter appeared clean with no excess metal flecks. However the oil was somewhat slimy and smelled of petrol. But glad not to see metal in the oil filter paper at least!
Checked the front engine ancillaries and all turned freely – suggesting none of them are stopping the crank from turning.
Took a look under the oil filler cap –besides the weird green colour on the bearing cap that little area looks OK also. No rust or similar either which I was worried about due to standing so long.

Tomorrow morning I think I will pull both cam covers and look for blue or overheated bearing cap(s) or other signs of grinding or damage. And look at the chain too as far down as I can see. Basiclaly a proper look inside the motor from above at least.

It is pretty darn rare for an M119 to seize so what gives? Could the fuel in the oil be a clue to numpty mechanics cranking and flooding the cylinders - causing mechanical damage? I did pour a little WD40 into each cylinder before leaving the car overnight to see if that might free things off – I do wonder is this a case that the engine sat far too long with exterior humidity and has stuck. If so there is a small chance it might free off – although long term damage is likely. I think it might have been this way when the dealer got it and the garage thought it was a starter motor gone, then they fitted a new starter and realised the engine was seized after the fact.

I would greatly appreciate opinions or ideas on what I should be checking next. As I say I will be fixing the car but right now in the immediate I want to determine if the engine has major issues and I need to be repairing it or looking for another m119.970 which will take time to source. It is probable due to other projects I will push the S500 to the side for the moment and return to it as a winter, motor out job.
 
#19 ·
JC220,

Sorry to hear what you have found.

The engine must have been turning over freely up until recently though to warrant the work that was being carried out, which you think would point to cranking and not starting, until the starter motor got "slow" (invoice six months ago?) It is strange for it to then lock up in a short time, but it all depends whether the seller was telling the truth I guess. Is the "new" starter OK, could anything have happened with it to prevent the motor from being turned by hand?

Hope you can quickly find what is going on here, and not to terminal.

All the best.
 
#20 ·
That's a really good point. If the starter or starter drive locked into the ring gear, that would prevent the engine turning. I'd pull the starter and see. That, and pulling the valve covers to see if there is any evidence of valve train damage from jumped timing may give a clue as to what is going on.
 
#21 ·
Gentlemen - thankyou for the replies and encouragement.

OK it took a little longer today before I got started. I washed the S500 and clayed it since it was filthy dirty when it got here. I used Meguires APC at strong dilution and a detail brush to clean all seals and nooks etc. The car looks much better now. After that I used my 300E-24 to pull it back into my carport to diagnose the engine.
I striped the wiring harness and ignition cables etc out of the way first. Then took of the serpentine belt to be sure nothing was holding up front.
Here are photos of under both cam covers:

Everything looks good to me, what a 73k miles m119 should look like really! Timing chain was not broken or bunched up. No oiler tubes are popped. No signs of scoring or oil starvation at all. All timing chain guides are AOK. Chain feels tight / normal. Still won’t budge even a whisker on the crank.
What do you guys think of the cam photos? Do you spot anything wrong that I missed?
Here is a summary so far:
Spark plugs out – no oil / fluid staining or mechanical damage on them. Clean plugs
Timing chain is not broken, guides are not broken all looks good timing wise.
Engine oil is at correct level on the dipstick – oil filter was cut apart and inspected. No metal filings of any kind visible. Oil was a little sludgy and smelled like petrol too.
No popped oilers and camshafts look good.
Serpentine belt is removed as are both ignition caps / rotors at the front of the motor.
Crank does not budge with a breaker bar. Not a hair of movement front or backwards.

It did have a recent new starter motor about 6 months ago– likely aftermarket unit. Could it have shit the bed and jammed up? I hope it has! Starter to be removed tomorrow. Other than that – spun a bearing, threw a rod?

If not the starter motor the only thing left will be bottom end of motor. That will not be good.
 

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#22 ·
That all looks good. Even with a bad rod, broken crank, etc, you should get some movement of the crank, especially with a breaker bar.

Whoever did the work could have dropped a bolt, nut or other stuff in the hole for the starter, and it jammed between the ring gear and the bellhousing. There should be a cover on the lower portion of the bell housing. Pull it, and see if you see any damage to the torque converter from foreign objects.
 
#23 ·
By what i'm reading here , check the Starter Lockout .
In Trunk (facing), right side behind Trim , could you post a picture of that full side. There are some extra Modules where you remove some plugs to disengage the alarm etc . :thumbsup:
 

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#24 ·
By what i'm reading here , check the Starter Lockout .
In Trunk (facing), right side behind Trim , could you post a picture of that full side. There are some extra Modules where you remove some plugs to disengage the alarm etc . <img src="http://www.benzworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif" border="0" alt="" title="thumbsup" class="inlineimg" />
Thanks for that I'll do that tomorrow also

But note that this is a seized engine I am dealing with that will not turn the crank with a cheater bar
 
#27 ·
Get a cheap endoscope camera that uses USB to attach to your phone or laptop and go thru the sparkplug holes and look for corrosion between the pistons and cylinders. Perhaps a leaky head gasket or cracked block allowed coolant in the cylinders and they corroded from sitting?

Did you pull the cover off the bottom of the bellhousing to see if there is foreign object damage to the torque converter?

Endoscope:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071HYRPND/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_GDO6CbXMMF078
 
#28 ·
Thanks for the reply - I am going to try and get the front sump pan off now. It is not as easy as it first appeared. Motor needs jacked up to access the front pan bolts. I do have a USB endoscope like that yes ill try in the bores first now and see if I can tell much by that. Since there is little room I may not be able to see enough of the cylinder walls. If that checks out from whatever little I can actually see, then it's off with the sump pan.

I will remove that little plate too and see if any damage is evident to the TC. But the space is so limited there I will only be able to see a very small area are of the TC :frown
 
#29 ·
Does the car move in neutral. I assume it does as you could have a frozen transmission and torque converter.

I would check the cylinders with the bore scope camera before opening anything. If all looks good or not, I'd spray each cylinder with rust breaker spray for nuts and bolts and flood each cylinder, and inspect each cylinder with bore scope like 12hrs later to allow it to soak. Remove the fuel pump fuse. Try to crank it with no spark plugs after a good soaking ..

Martin
 
#30 ·
Hi martin - thanks for that I did bore scope it yesterday and each cylinder has severe scoring. So I am going to buy another motor and let it sit until that gets here. No point trying to repair this one! To far gone and oversized pistons are not available. It does have all new harnesses, rebuilt ETA, ignition system etc so no expense required for the usual bad wiring which has already been sorted. I "just" have to swap in a good motor
 

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#31 ·
OK so besides the “massive” engine issue overall the car is very nice. Both the upper and lower wiring harnesses are new as is the ETA wiring. So the bad wiring has already been addressed. It also has a pair of new Beru caps and rotors along with a brand new genuine starter motor.

So as stated before I am motor shopping now. I may have to get an earlier m119.970 motor and swap my later 6 rib belt drives onto it. (Forgoing the 1993 internal engine updates)
There are a lot of electrical gremlins in the S600 Coupe. Well – a lack of electric is more like it.

All fuses have been checked for continuity but still 2no window motors are dead (Presume actual dead motors so I’ll get replacements) The stereo, hazard lamps button + power seat adjusters are all dead. I will try swapping out the hazard relay as it is likely stuck or faulty.

For the power seats etc – any pointers? Seatbelt butlers doing nothing also. But I need to start cleaning up all grounds and checking all fuses etc again more closely. The door contact switches could also be corroded from sitting so I’ll test all of those too.

I did find one blown fuse in the base module also. Basically next step whilst sorting a replacement good used low miles motor (Which I will fit myself along with all new timing guides, crank seals, engine mounts etc) But right away I do have a lot of electrical items to troubleshoot and resolve. PSE pump and all that is dead too. But I have new PSE motors bought from a member here that I can solder in. I do think most of this is related to loose or corroded connectors though or even a bad ignition switch.

When I hook on the battery 2 windows drop down almost halfway. As I understand it this is normal and when the windows are set it *should* start dropping them properly when opening / closing doors.
The other list of bizzare electrical items is that the heated rear window lamp on the switch is on constant…… as soon as the battery is hooked back on - very strange stuff.

Fortunately I am familiar with DIY electrical repairs and I have 2x w140 saloons which I can borrow some of the compatible relays from for testing purposes.

Any pointers on what to look for electrical wise would be appreciated.
 
#32 ·
Don't replace window motors until you check to see if N57 in the right side of the trunk is working correctly. It has a bunch of relays. I had a window or two in my second coupe that didn't work, and changing that box fixed it. You need one for a coupe. Sedans are different.

Seats are controlled by a box mounted to the bottom of each seat.

Go to http://manuals.startekinfo.com. Most of the electrical systems are described, along with diagnosis and troubleshooting info. Make sure to pick the correct year for each system as there were a lot of mods along the way. There is a wealth of info there, but it takes awhile to wade thru it. It is mainly for US spec vehicles, but most systems are similar or the same for other versions.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Thankyou for the reply and link. I will review all of that this weekend to try and understand what is going on with this Coupe. Ref the window motors- I have been looking on ebay and it appears the coupe motors look identical to the saloon window motors. This is very good news – since I have 2 full sets of good used w140 window motors spare on the shelf. I am temped to pop the drivers door card and plug on in to see if it is a motor problem or the convenience module as you suggest.

When I took delivery of the car it was obvious the flip key had seen much better days. No batteries and held together with tape. Tonight I repaired a dry solder joint on the little battery tab inside, swapped all over to a new case and fitted new batteries. Looking at it with my phone camera I have confirmed the fob is alive and sending signals. However – the car does not respond to the infrared remote :|

The key is correct for all tumblers and ignition in the car. It appears this dead electrical issue extends to the alarm system too. I did also remove several relays at the back of the fuebox and tested them – all was good. Except that one of the modules has signs a total moron was cutting wires and applying silicone in the past. I will try to locate a replacement unit – if anyone has one for sale at a decent price PM me. (Ebay prices are batsh*t crazy for this unit)

It is almost as if the accessory position in the key does nothing. Most of the car is dead electrical wise – I do have some work to do to find out why. Overall the wiring does not look to be hacked up or in bad shape. There is a mystery hazard switch wired in – below the steering column so I think that might be related to the wiring hack seen in the module within fusebox. So that will have to be undone next.

Besides that I guess test the ignition tumbler outputs and the main power points in the car to see why most items do not appear to work. I would find it very strange that not a single seat motor is working for example......

EDIT: Note also that due to having no battery the coupe windows were not sealing correctly on this car. I see signs of mould in the front right carpets. Next thing I want to do when I get the S500 moved out of my carport this weekend (Too narrow to open the doors a decent amount) is pull the carpets and undercarpets and get a dehumidifier in there. If there are power terminals down there perhaps they have corroded and that is why alot of the car's electrics appear to be getting no power. I will also check and note which exact fuses ARE getting power so I can refer to the diagrams and check of that relates and aligns with the seemingly dead components.
 

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#35 ·
Yes I will try that soon thankyou!

A small update on the S500 Coupe. These are HUGE cars especially with the long coupe doors. So it was really too tight to work on it in my carport. (Since all garages are full) So I moved it to a clear space of my yard, washed it and fitted a tailored outdoor cover to keep the rain off it. It was an epic task to move around 10 cars and use 3 of them to tow the S500 and turn it suitably to get it around back – but it all went exactly to plan!

I detailed the door jambs and under the doors. So far very good – no rust on this coupe. Very pleased with the condition of the body it has clearly been garaged most of its life.
I did not have much time to delve into the electronics yet. Initially I pulled the PSE Pump today and tested the motor. Sure enough, as is common with these the little electrical pump motor was dead. I do have several new spare motors in my hoard so I soldered than in place and carefully cleaned all of the black carbon dust off the circuit board. I also tested the ribbon cable and all connections are good. No signs of damage or corrosion on the circuit board either.

However, as a noob move when testing the relays I somehow popped a chip on the circuit board. Oops. It was a B57345 Chip – readily available new on ebay for about £1 each. New ones ordered and I de-soldered the old chip from the board successfully using desolding wire and a solder sucker. When the new chip gets here I will solder it in and test the PSE pump in the car. Fingers crossed SOME of the systems start to operate again in the coming weeks. This week if all goes to plan I should have a replacement motor purchased also. Then get together a shopping list of new oil sender O rings, pickup tube, gaskets, engine mounts etc from the dealer in anticipation of getting the replacement motor installed and taking care of all items as is reasonable “whilst in there”.
 

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