When I buy a car, it's a long-term commitment; therefore I buy the options etc for ME, not the ham-fisted moron who might own the car in 25 years, who can't drive a manual!
We had a C 230 K with 6 speed manual to sell a couple of years ago and it was dead easy to sell. Took 2 weeks, private sale. A young man aged 19 bought it.
So if one wants a manual, but the manual for criminy sake! the manual shifter and clutch in the B are velvety-smooth. The CVT with the 134 HP engine is the polar opposite of refined and quiet. With the Turbo, the CVT does a lot better, for reasons explored in other threads here.
I agree to buy a car and the options that suit your own needs and whether manual or automatic is a decision that is our own business. I used to only drive manual and would not consider auto. Now, family needs and preference has changed and I drive auto.
But, I must disagree 100% about cvt, 134 hp engine being a polar opposite of refined and quiet. I have a owned a slew of bmw inline 6 engines that are silky smooth, and this Merc while not as smooth an engine, is nevertheless turning out to be my most favourite car in terms of luxury, smoothness, and quietness both in city and highway I have ever owned. I am not a lead foot, so do not explore the upper reaches of the tach and feel there is rarely a need with this engine/tranny combo. I am not sure how you conclude your opinion but I'm confident that us non tubo CVT drivers are mostly thrilled with the cars performance/luxury for our dollars spend.
Nice to see others find the cvt refined and smooth. Test drove both turbo and non turbo and found both to work well with the transmission, especially I was surprised how little the non turbo motor laboured going slowly up a steep hill. The engine never seemed to be of sync with the transmission always finding the perfect combination of engine revs and gear ratio. The engine might not be as smooth as an inline 6 but has to be the smoothest 4 cylinder around.
One can only assume then that the speakers fitted to cars with the Harmon Cd unit are either different in quality or else the normal speakers are poorly matched (ie require more power to drive them than is available) to the standard (Alpine) unit. There is no way that a better Amplifier / Cd unit will make poor speakers good, and it does seem to be the concensus of opinion that the standard rear speakers are poor.
It would be interesting to find out what speakers are fitted with the Harmon unit, has any one looked at their speakers in the Harmon setup. I think there may be pictures in previous threads showing the standard( supposedly poor) speakers.
My reasons are in another thread but I will reprise them here.
When accelerating briskly in the B 200 CVT, the engine sets up at a constant 4000+ RPM and makes a racket like a 1976 Renault 5 for about 10-15 seconds, until it hits the desitred speed (say 100 km/h). The B 200 engine is coarse and unrefined at anything much above 3500 RPM - whether the transaxle is manual or automatic - and with the manual 'box it is possible to keep tis engine in the nether reaches of the RPM range, even when accelerating briskly. Not so the CVT (unless you shift it "manually" with the slap-shifter, which has seven virtual gears, so you'll be slap-happy before you know it).
The reason the CVT sails up to the high RPM is that the B 200 develops its peak torque at a high 3500-4000 RPM, which is where the engine begins to sound coarse and gets noisy. The CVT will always do this, get to the heart of the torque band when accelerating moderately.
Even a pepère driver has to hammer it once in a while, to merge onto a freeway for example, so it is not a moot point.
Other unrefined aspects: the CVT hunts and makes the car wobble (as though the car has warped brake discs) a bit when slowing to a stop, as though the CVT is "gearing down" through the pseudo-gears. I found that annoying and surprising. I am sure it's unnecessary. It's almost as though there were wear points on the variable diameter drums that were causing this, but the three CVT cars I drove had few km, so that shouldn't be it.
I also didn't like the CVT's tendency to use engine braking on downhill runs, where in the manual car I'd be running out in 5th to keep the fuel consumption to zero for a longer distance and time.
Sure, many if not all of these problems can be overcome by shifting the car manually through its seven virtual gears, but then: why buy an automatic if you need to shift it manually (and 40% more often than the manual on the B 200) to enjoy a smooth, brisk and serene ride in all road conditions?
The reason the CVT comes off better in the Turbo is that the Turbo has a massively wide peak torque band, 1850 to 4850 RPM, so even when accelerating hard, the CVT only needs to take the engine to maybe 2000 or 2200 RPM when moving off. Even under hard acceleration, I found that it stayed around 3200 RPM. The other things (downshifting and wobble) still seemed to be there, but I would find it much easier to live with.
No offense intended, these are just my observations when driving the cars. I have read media reviews that essentially say the same thing, and the British media reports call the B 200 engine unrefined and recommend in favour of the CDI diesels.
Have not found any of these problems with my CVT, however, mine is coupled to the 200 CDI (Diesel) engine which is, to my mind, the ideal combination.
Have you petrol engined members found the problems that Mike is discussing. I can't see that M/B would sell many petrol Autos if this were the case, but it appears that the auto is by far their biggest sellar.
I have the B 200 Turbo with CVT and I find it is very smooth and always in the right gear. Then again, I leave it in drive, on the comfort setting and just drive it. I do not shift gears or second guess the transmission control module.
My transmission exhibits none of the bad characteristics that Mike has described. There is no hunting lurching etc. On a downhill run, it will hold the gear if your foot is off the gas- but, if you give it just a hint of gas, it will continue to shift up and coast in the higher range. The transmission module also memorizes your driving style and adapts to your driving technique.
Some prefer a manual transmission and that is OK too - that is why MB offer both and call it an option.
For decades, the Germans eschewed air conditionning and automatic transmissions: on the basis that real men don't sweat and real men can shift their own gears. Today, air is standard and automatic is in the majority.
Please remember that all of the advice posted here is probably worth exactly what you paid for it.
My reasons are in another thread but I will reprise them here.
When accelerating briskly in the B 200 CVT, the engine sets up at a constant 4000+ RPM and makes a racket like a 1976 Renault 5 for about 10-15 seconds, until it hits the desitred speed (say 100 km/h). The B 200 engine is coarse and unrefined at anything much above 3500 RPM - whether the transaxle is manual or automatic - and with the manual 'box it is possible to keep tis engine in the nether reaches of the RPM range, even when accelerating briskly. Not so the CVT (unless you shift it "manually" with the slap-shifter, which has seven virtual gears, so you'll be slap-happy before you know it).
The reason the CVT sails up to the high RPM is that the B 200 develops its peak torque at a high 3500-4000 RPM, which is where the engine begins to sound coarse and gets noisy. The CVT will always do this, get to the heart of the torque band when accelerating moderately.
Even a pepère driver has to hammer it once in a while, to merge onto a freeway for example, so it is not a moot point.
Other unrefined aspects: the CVT hunts and makes the car wobble (as though the car has warped brake discs) a bit when slowing to a stop, as though the CVT is "gearing down" through the pseudo-gears. I found that annoying and surprising. I am sure it's unnecessary. It's almost as though there were wear points on the variable diameter drums that were causing this, but the three CVT cars I drove had few km, so that shouldn't be it.
I also didn't like the CVT's tendency to use engine braking on downhill runs, where in the manual car I'd be running out in 5th to keep the fuel consumption to zero for a longer distance and time.
Sure, many if not all of these problems can be overcome by shifting the car manually through its seven virtual gears, but then: why buy an automatic if you need to shift it manually (and 40% more often than the manual on the B 200) to enjoy a smooth, brisk and serene ride in all road conditions?
The reason the CVT comes off better in the Turbo is that the Turbo has a massively wide peak torque band, 1850 to 4850 RPM, so even when accelerating hard, the CVT only needs to take the engine to maybe 2000 or 2200 RPM when moving off. Even under hard acceleration, I found that it stayed around 3200 RPM. The other things (downshifting and wobble) still seemed to be there, but I would find it much easier to live with.
No offense intended, these are just my observations when driving the cars. I have read media reviews that essentially say the same thing, and the British media reports call the B 200 engine unrefined and recommend in favour of the CDI diesels.
i think it may come down to driver-style. i find even entering the highway very little need to rev high, but on occasion when needing to make haste the engine revs temporarily and makes some vibes (it is under your feet) but is quite the non-irritating kind. this tranny is the best auto i have ever used imho. i do wish though that we could buy the diesel here in canada as i woul choose it in a heartbeat.
Also, check the lease returns - you can get great deals on low mileage, almost new ( 10K Km ) lease returns and demos. Here in Vancouver, a well dressed B is about $ 25 K and a Turbo just a little more.
I bought one and it would be very hard to tell that it was not brand new and I still have three years of warranty- just in case.
May I also suggest that you consider investing the difference - about $ 10,000 in SUNCOR, or HUSKY, so you can forget about escalating gas prices.
PS. Jordan, Have you ever thought about changing your avatar photo? Is that photo from your drivers license or your passport?
from all of the posts, I am getting that do not go with cvt without turbo.
also, do you know when the '09 will be released? is it worh waiting for? For those Canadians, what are you getting in gas mileage? what does it cost you to fill up your tank?
also, do you know when the '09 will be released? is it worh waiting for? For those Canadians, what are you getting in gas mileage? what does it cost you to fill up your tank?
Beeclass, the avatar is from my health card
I believe someone had mentioned the '09 models should be coming out around July (?) Is it worth waiting for? Again, from my understanding, the Canadian Bs will be coming with mostly exterior and some interior upgrades. IMO, it would be worth waiting for the '09 if it were coming with: a) CDI engines b) new ECO start/stop engine function. Sadly, these are not rumoured to be coming . . .yet.
As far as gas mileage is concerned, I think we are all envious of the gas mileage Mike gets on his B For me, though, I have been averaging around 9.3 litres/100 kms in the one month that we have owned our B200. This is with almost exclusive city driving. Cost to fill tank: I have been averaging around $65.00 every fill up with about 50 litre fill.
One can only assume then that the speakers fitted to cars with the Harmon Cd unit are either different in quality or else the normal speakers are poorly matched (ie require more power to drive them than is available) to the standard (Alpine) unit. There is no way that a better Amplifier / Cd unit will make poor speakers good, and it does seem to be the concensus of opinion that the standard rear speakers are poor.
It would be interesting to find out what speakers are fitted with the Harmon unit, has any one looked at their speakers in the Harmon setup. I think there may be pictures in previous threads showing the standard( supposedly poor) speakers.
We are bouncing about on a few topics here.
The original rear speakers have a capacitor in series with the feed.(as seen in our speaker change posting way back)
This blocks all bass from driving that speaker.
MB probably did this when the Canadian version came standard with the Audio 20(Alpine) instead of the Audio 5(Becker).
Rather than putting in better speakers, they simply blocked extra power from damaging the original rears and left us with a truly crappy rear sound.
The front speakers have a nice sound and are of better quality.IMHO
I have a manual tranny and love it, but if I was stuck in traffic, I would consider the CVT and I value the great comments and well explained variety we see here. Keep them coming!! Derek
Last edited by Derek Lecours : 05-12-2008 at 06:05 AM.
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