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Pre-owned W220 Buying Information

222K views 106 replies 43 participants last post by  unavita 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I am looking at a 2000 S500 with 78K miles that belonged to the local Benz dealer's wife. Anything that i should be looking out for in either short or long term?

Those that know me know that I come from the 124/126 world where things are bank vault solid and parts and repair are logical, simple and without a lot of whoha [or is that whomha?].

Any input would be greatly appreciated. My previous foray into newer benzos was a 99E55, 98 C280 Sport and 98CLK430. I now need a large car to tote inlaws around who are in the 6ft+ range. My alternative is of course a solid 560SEL.

Your help and guidance would be appreciated.
 
#3 ·
Airmatic is a small problem and the 220 is a great car.:thumbsup:
 
#5 ·
:eek:Your correct, must wear my glasses when reading these things:eek:
 
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#8 ·
Besides aimatic problems the car is very good, one thing I had better mention is the instrument cluster failure problem and its quite well documented. There was a recall on this in America, so maybe you want to check if its been replaced.
 
#9 ·
Hey Bear, great minds think alike...I was just looking at a pristine '01 S500 with just 23,000 miles on it I think I can get in the high 20's. Like you I came here to see what the issues are.

That having been said, I am absolutely loving my '86 420SEL. Took the whole family up to the Detroit airport for our Thanksgiving getaway to FL and the damn thing is a limosine. Great for carting the in-laws around, the back seat is amazing. No issues so far.

Good luck with your search!
 
#10 · (Edited)
mcbear,

You have pretty much hit the issues: Airmatic suspension and electronics. Both have improved in later years.

The '00 S500 had an upper strut mount design that tended to crack, then leak. If you looked at it carefully, you could see cracks begin to develop in the paint, in the circular depressions molded into the mount (where the air hose and valve enter the strut). Time to replace it; the "seal kit" replacement was actually a replacement of both the metal upper mounts and the seals. I experienced this problem on my '00, and it cost me about $550 to fix.

Problems with the lower strut seals are less frequent, but like any wear point (including seals in hydraulic struts in spring suspensions), they do fail eventually.

Any leak in the system can run the Airmatic pump excessively and cause premature failure, of course. But more frequently, the early Airmatic relay was a problem. If it failed "on" it would burn out the Airmatic pump - a $900 repair. If it failed "off" the Airmatic system would gradually lose pressure (faster of course if there was a leak). This problem was (and is) common. Forum contributor Oddemann has indicated recently that the relay is now made by another supplier (Hella, I think) and is more reliable than in the past. About $35 from a parts house, $85 from a dealer.

If the Airmatic system loses all inflation, the car settles to a point where the tires can damage the wheel wells if the car is driven hard in that condition; and damage the fenders if the wheels are turned. That's about a $6000 repair job but is of course caused by the owner neglecting to act on the early indications of failure.

How frequent are the failures? I have no idea of the actual numbers. However, I had to have the front struts replaced on my '05 (under warranty, thankfully - normally a $2600 repair) for lower seal leaks. I have standard wheels and OE tires (as I had on the '00). Two out of two ('00 and '05) with good roads and only about 12K per year of normal driving isn't great - but then the Airmatic system is what gives the W220 its marvelous ride and handling.

I would say that Airmatic problems are fairly common and are the weakest design point of the car in terms of reliability. They can be expensive to fix. However, knowing what to look for early, and fixing it promptly, minimizes the costs. If I were to buy a '00 today I would 1) check that the upper front strut mounts were of the newer design, and 2) replace the Airmatic relay. Maybe replacing the relay is like snapping fingers to keep the elephants away, but the relay is inexpensive and addresses what seems to be the most common point of failure. Last, I'd have an independent mechanic check the Airmatic system for leaks.

NOTE: Since this was originally posted, Arnott Industries has come out with reasonably priced Airmatic struts and better-priced airmatic pumps. The Arnott struts and built with thicker-sided air bags and better seals. The newly-manufactured Arnotts cost half what MB charges, and the remanufactured OE struts cost 1/4. I have read that Arnott does not include the ADS (Adaptive Damping System) components for adjustment of ride firmness in the new struts, but does retain them in the remanufactured ones; Arnott did not respond to my email query about this, but I would check before ordering. If true, personally, I would order remanufactured struts.

I am not at all certain that the majority of problems with Airmatic are caused by oversized rims and abusive driving. These are a likely contributing factor in many of the complaints one sees on the forums, but certainly not all. But I also note that the air (rear) suspension on two of my wife's Lincoln Town Cars also developed leaks requiring expensive repair, and she is a cautious driver. Air is thinner than hydraulic fluid. It will leak through a smaller gap. (Duh). If you have an air suspension system, it's a fact of life. At least, Arnott has brought the replacement costs into a reasonable range.

Problems with a particular engine pulley (harmonic balancer) separating were addressed by a recall. The oil pan could be shattered if the pulley let go; but if the car has had all of its recalls and program bulletins taken care of, you should be OK.

Electronics problems did occur frequently in early models. COMMAND failures were largely handled under warranty with newer units. Firmware updates handled many of the audio dropout issues (and many owners failed to recognize that a short audio dropout was an indication of a waiting voice mail message on the cell phone; nothing like reading the owners' manuals). Door control failures (loss of window controls, locks, etc.) were often caused by water intrusion when folks tinted the windows. Early COMAND nav units are now outdated (Duh) and are often compared unfairly against more modern nav systems. People are frustrated that their car doesn't allow them to switch to the latest and greatest cell phone every 6 months. Guess what? No car does. Some just make it easier, and the newer UHI and MHI systems in Mercedes do that. There is a cell phone upgrade path for the 2000 and newer models, but like everything Mercedes, it is expensive. We may have had to figure it out for ourselves, but it can be done - and it makes upgrading to the "latest and greatest" every six months much easier.

I agree fully on the lack of "need" to update the headlights, tail lights, etc. ad nauseam. I updated my tail lights because some idiot cracked one with a grocery cart (also placing a basketball-sized dent in the back fender). My '00 was a beautifully styled car that I could appreciate, and I still take pleasure in seeing one go by (as several do regularly in my neighborhood). I like white front side marker covers on a silver car, so did that - but at night they're yellow, just like the originals. My HID OE headlights on the '00 were Xenon on low beam - just like my clear-lensed Bi-Xenon projector lamps on the '05. 99% of the time you drive on low beam - so they were the same, from a practical standpoint. Upgrade just wasn't worth the cost, and the OE '00-'02 is good-looking in its own right.

I do like the slightly stiffer suspension on my '05 4-Matic, which I drive in its softest ride setting; the mid-stiffness selection on the '00 was similar. Used to the Audi sport suspension, I guess. The ability to raise the front suspension by 3/4 of an inch is useful mainly to avoid bumper scraping backing out of parking.

The earlier W220s have some strong advocates (Jayhawk being one). Yes, they were more problematic than the predecessor W140. It was revolutionary in its styling, suspension, and electronics, compared to its predecessor. I loved the W220 sports sedan feel on stiffer settings, vice the very "heavy" feel of the w140. But there were problems initially; some linger, but at lesser rates. And, as MB tightened quality requirements for its parts suppliers, many of the replacement parts have been just fine. Dealers were not adequately prepared for the new systems in many cases, and many are still not today. You are correct that poor dealer service compounded the frustrations of early malfunctions. They still do in some places. We have the same problem with our local Lincoln dealership, too. But many dealerships have caught up, and do just fine.

Rust was a problem for some - in '03 MB went to a double-sided zinc treatment on the body. There is a warranty that is greater than the original mileage for rust (if it is in an undamaged area; rust from an accident-damaged area is not covered).

The initial instrument cluster recall for the W220 and CLS was replaced by an extended 10-year warranty (from date of initial service). Instrument cluster failure stems mainly from one or more of three different component malfunctions, but they are all covered.

I cannot give you any statistics on failure rates. MB had a marvelous reputation for reliability and long-lasting cars prior to the '00 W220. The early W220 failed to deliver to that same standard. People who went from the earlier cars to the newer were very disappointed with reliability, according to JD Power, Consumer Reports, and many other surveys. However, MB did address the problems, and did improve quality control. '03 was the first year the cars were built from scratch with the improved quality components - but don't forget, the improved components were also used as they became available in the '02 production year, and as replacement parts (e.g., the metal mounts for the front struts) for older cars. The quality trend continued annually, with the '07 W221 winning JD Powers' top initial quality rating in the luxury class - beating Lexus, of course. The '05 and '06 W220s are also not far off that mark.

Look carefully at any '00 you buy. Look at its service history; if a part failed repeatedly, but was finally fixed and has been good for a year or more, it finally got either 1) the quality replacement part or 2) a dealer who had caught up with the changes - or both. Be sure recalls and program mods have been taken care of. Check CarFax for accidents and look at the car for the same (rust, broken engine mounts, missing trim, etc). Have an independent check the Airmatic system for leaks (easy to do with soapy spray at the seals and hose connections). Look at the car's general condition - was it cared for, or abused?

Last, since you're buying a dealer's wife's car, perhaps he will give you a deal on an extended warranty. Not sure he can certify it with 78K, but there are other warranty packages. Very few, if any, will go past 100,000 miles - but some protection is better than none. Best to get one that covers electronics as well as suspension.

If you like it buy it - and know you're driving a modern classic.

For more comparisons and discussions of specifics of different models, see http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w22...s-encyclopedia-start-here-2.html#post10079489
 
#91 ·
mcbear,

You have pretty much hit the issues: Airmatic suspension and electronics. Both have improved in later years.

The '00 S500 had an upper strut mount design that tended to crack, then leak. If you looked at it carefully, you could see cracks begin to develop in the paint, in the circular depressions molded into the mount (where the air hose and valve enter the strut). Time to replace it; the "seal kit" replacement was actually a replacement of both the metal upper mounts and the seals. I experienced this problem on my '00, and it cost me about $550 to fix.

Problems with the lower strut seals are less frequent, but like any wear point (including seals in hydraulic struts in spring suspensions), they do fail eventually.

Any leak in the system can run the Airmatic pump excessively and cause premature failure, of course. But more frequently, the early Airmatic relay was a problem. If it failed "on" it would burn out the Airmatic pump - a $900 repair. If it failed "off" the Airmatic system would gradually lose pressure (faster of course if there was a leak). This problem was (and is) common. Forum contributor Oddemann has indicated recently that the relay is now made by another supplier (Hella, I think) and is more reliable than in the past. About $35 from a parts house, $85 from a dealer.

If the Airmatic system loses all inflation, the car settles to a point where the tires can damage the wheel wells if the car is driven in that condition; and damage the fenders if the wheels are turned. That's about a $6000 repair job but is of course caused by the owner neglecting to act on the early indications of failure.

How frequent are the failures? I have no idea of the actual numbers. However, I had to have the front struts replaced on my '05 (under warranty, thankfully - normally a $2600 repair) for lower seal leaks. I have standard wheels and OE tires (as I had on the '00). Two out of two ('00 and '05) with good roads and only about 12K per year of normal driving isn't great - but then the Airmatic system is what gives the W220 its marvelous ride and handling.

I would say that Airmatic problems are fairly common and are the weakest design point of the car in terms of reliability. They can be expensive to fix. However, knowing what to look for early, and fixing it promptly, minimizes the costs. If I were to buy a '00 today I would 1) check that the upper front strut mounts were of the newer design, and 2) replace the Airmatic relay. Maybe replacing the relay is like snapping fingers to keep the elephants away, but the relay is inexpensive and addresses what seems to be the most common point of failure. Last, I'd have an independent mechanic check the Airmatic system for leaks.

I am not at all certain that the majority of problems with Airmatic are caused by oversized rims and abusive driving. These are a likely contributing factor in many of the complaints one sees on the forums, but certainly not all. But I also note that the air (rear) suspension on two of my wife's Lincoln Town Cars also developed leaks requiring expensive repair, and she is a cautious driver. Air is thinner than hydraulic fluid. It will leak through a smaller gap. (Duh). If you have an air suspension system, it's a fact of life.

Problems with a particular engine pulley (harmonic balancer) separating were addressed by a recall. The oil pan could be shattered if the pulley let go; but if the car has had all of its recalls and program bulletins taken care of, you should be OK.

Electronics problems did occur frequently in early models. COMMAND failures were largely handled under warranty with newer units. Firmware updates handled many of the audio dropout issues (and many owners failed to recognize that a short audio dropout was an indication of a waiting voice mail message on the cell phone; nothing like reading the owners' manuals). Door control failures (loss of window controls, locks, etc.) were often caused by water intrusion when folks tinted the windows. Early COMAND nav units are now outdated (Duh) and are often compared unfairly against more modern nav systems. People are frustrated that their car doesn't allow them to switch to the latest and greatest cell phone every 6 months. Guess what? No car does. Some just make it easier, and the newer UHI and MHI systems in Mercedes do that. There is a cell phone upgrade path for the 2000 and newer models, but like everything Mercedes, it is expensive. We may have had to figure it out for ourselves, but it can be done - and it makes upgrading to the "latest and greatest" every six months much easier.

I agree fully on the lack of "need" to update the headlights, tail lights, etc. ad nauseam. I updated my tail lights because some idiot cracked one with a grocery cart (also placing a basketball-sized dent in the back fender). My '00 was a beautifully styled car that I could appreciate, and I still take pleasure in seeing one go by (as several do regularly in my neighborhood). I like white front side marker covers on a silver car, so did that - but at night they're yellow, just like the originals. My HID OE headlights on the '00 were Xenon on low beam - just like my clear-lensed Bi-Xenon projector lamps on the '05. 99% of the time you drive on low beam - so they were the same, from a practical standpoint. Upgrade just wasn't worth the cost, and the OE '00-'02 is good-looking in its own right.

I do like the slightly stiffer suspension on my '05 4-Matic, which I drive in its softest ride setting; the mid-stiffness selection on the '00 was similar. Used to the Audi sport suspension, I guess. The ability to raise the front suspension by 3/4 of an inch is useful mainly to avoid bumper scraping backing out of parking.

The earlier W220s have some strong advocates (Jayhawk being one). Yes, they were more problematic than the predecessor W140. It was revolutionary in its styling, suspension, and electronics, compared to its predecessor. I loved the W220 sports sedan feel on stiffer settings, vice the very "heavy" feel of the w140. But there were problems initially; some linger, but at lesser rates. And, as MB tightened quality requirements for its parts suppliers, many of the replacement parts have been just fine. Dealers were not adequately prepared for the new systems in many cases, and many are still not today. You are correct that poor dealer service compounded the frustrations of early malfunctions. They still do in some places. We have the same problem with our local Lincoln dealership, too. But many dealerships have caught up, and do just fine.

Rust was a problem for some - in '03 MB went to a double-sided zinc treatment on the body. There is a warranty that is greater than the original mileage for rust (if it is in an undamaged area; rust from an accident-damaged area is not covered).

The initial instrument cluster recall for the W220 and CLS was replaced by an extended 10-year warranty (from date of initial service). Instrument cluster failure stems mainly from one or more of three different component malfunctions, but they are all covered.

I cannot give you any statistics on failure rates. MB had a marvelous reputation for reliability and long-lasting cars prior to the '00 W220. The early W220 failed to deliver to that same standard. People who went from the earlier cars to the newer were very disappointed with reliability, according to JD Power, Consumer Reports, and many other surveys. However, MB did address the problems, and did improve quality control. '03 was the first year the cars were built from scratch with the improved quality components - but don't forget, the improved components were also used as they became available in the '02 production year, and as replacement parts (e.g., the metal mounts for the front struts) for older cars. The quality trend continued annually, with the '07 W221 winning JD Powers' top initial quality rating in the luxury class - beating Lexus, of course. The '05 and '06 models are also not far off that mark.

Look carefully at any '00 you buy. Look at its service history; if a part failed repeatedly, but was finally fixed and has been good for a year or more, it finally got either 1) the quality replacement part or 2) a dealer who had caught up with the changes - or both. Be sure recalls and program mods have been taken care of. Check CarFax for accidents and look at the car for the same (rust, broken engine mounts, missing trim, etc). Have an independent check the Airmatic system for leaks (easy to do with soapy spray at the seals and hose connections). Look at the car's general condition - was it cared for, or abused?

Last, since you're buying a dealer's wife's car, perhaps he will give you a deal on an extended warrantee. Not sure he can certify it with 78K, but there are other warranty packages. Very few, if any, will go past 100,000 miles - but some protection is better than none. Best to get one that covers electronics as well as suspension.

If you like it buy it - and know you're driving a modern classic.
Thanks for the very helpful comments.
 
#11 ·
Hey skylaw, that was a pretty good write up,:thumbsup:
 
#15 ·
SKYLAW:

Perfect. That is what I was looking for. I have the VMI on the car, all recalls are closed. Minimal work done, everything "normal" for 77K with two window lifts being the only flag I see. The car was driven back and forth from the farm in Kentucky to the house in Boca so it was serviced at one of the to owned dealers at every event.

I have a small shop that does restoration and performance on 500Es and 126 models so I have access to a MB Master Tech when necessary. He retired in 98 which is why he is not familiar with this model.

This weekend they threw the keys to the car to me to drive and decide [since I had said I would not be moving above 1995 era cars] and I had a chance to switch between a 560SEC AMG, 90 560SEL with 125000 and new suspension and the W220 and I found the 220 to stack up VERY well with the 560SEL. They are different in many ways but you can feel the heritage. I would still be in my 126 but building it back up to where I would be happy with it is just not cost effective, even at shop cost. While the 126 is a VERY good car, they do get old and things do fail.

As for extended warranty, it looks like about $2K for 20K miles. After pricing out parts for the majors that have a likelihood of failure in 20K at wholesale costs, it seems like a likely wash IF there is a failure. I am going to look into 3rd Party tomorrow but so far have not looked at that route. It depends on the subsystems covered.

Thanks again for the excellent writeup. Gives me plenty to digest as I make a decision before tomorrow evening.
 
#27 ·
Warranty

SKYLAW:

Perfect. That is what I was looking for. I have the VMI on the car, all recalls are closed. Minimal work done, everything "normal" for 77K with two window lifts being the only flag I see. The car was driven back and forth from the farm in Kentucky to the house in Boca so it was serviced at one of the to owned dealers at every event.

I have a small shop that does restoration and performance on 500Es and 126 models so I have access to a MB Master Tech when necessary. He retired in 98 which is why he is not familiar with this model.

This weekend they threw the keys to the car to me to drive and decide [since I had said I would not be moving above 1995 era cars] and I had a chance to switch between a 560SEC AMG, 90 560SEL with 125000 and new suspension and the W220 and I found the 220 to stack up VERY well with the 560SEL. They are different in many ways but you can feel the heritage. I would still be in my 126 but building it back up to where I would be happy with it is just not cost effective, even at shop cost. While the 126 is a VERY good car, they do get old and things do fail.

As for extended warranty, it looks like about $2K for 20K miles. After pricing out parts for the majors that have a likelihood of failure in 20K at wholesale costs, it seems like a likely wash IF there is a failure. I am going to look into 3rd Party tomorrow but so far have not looked at that route. It depends on the subsystems covered.

Thanks again for the excellent writeup. Gives me plenty to digest as I make a decision before tomorrow evening.

I picked up my 2003 S500 4MATIC with 42k miles for about $30k. It was a low mileage lease in Conneticut and was just out of warranty. I shopped around and ended up with a 4 year/100k warranty with warranty direct for about $4,000. Given about 60,000 miles left on the warranty, the piece of mind it bought was worth it to me. I did some research on the web and it seemed to be a very solid warranty provider.
 
#17 ·
Thank you so much for this information! I just won the bid on a 2000 S500 AMG from my husband's credit union---its my "dream car' and I have waited patiently for the right and affordable opportunity to buy. However its an "iffy" buying situation with 107,000 miles and no history on the car---its a repo and the price is right at 18K. It looks pristine, absolutely clean but we are playing it safe and having a mercedes mechanic check it out first before we sign. I'm grateful for your posting mcbear so I know what to ask him to check now and what to look out for in the future. Is there anything in particular about the AMG package that I should be wary of? The guy at the credit union said it says "AMG" but he didn't think it "performed" like an AMG, How should an AMG perform, what should I be expecting? I am an older "new" Mom who plans to drive it 120 miles a day 3 days a week in to Houston for work and am looking for a safe, reliable vehicle with a lot of comfort and mercedes style----I have been a student half my life and have always driven cheap used asian cars that I could afford on a student budget!! We have not test driven the car yet---the credit union has crazy insurance stipulations, we can drive in the car with one of their guys and the mechanic can come along... Any furthur advice you can give would be most helpful. Thank you much! P.S. It does not come with an owner's manual, where is the best place to pick up one affordably if we sign the deal?
 
#20 · (Edited)
Wacky scientist,

I answered in response to the e-mail you sent, but post the reply here so that others might see the response, and offer their views as well. Plus, I added some items I didn't think of this morning.

First, the car is not a true "AMG." The W220 (S-Class) AMG for the '00 model year was designated the "S55." It had a 5.4 liter turbocharged engine. See Mercedes-Benz W220 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for a quick rundown. Reading the charts, only cars with the "L" designation (long wheel base) were sold in the U.S. No S350s were sold in the U.S. until 2004.

Note: The preceding is based on what I read in the Wikipedia article. Kong9999 kindly corrects this with the following: "Some small corrections to your tutorial. Per MBUSA.com, the S55 AMG first appeared in MY 2001, and did not originally come with a turbocharger. That arrived in MY 2003, bringing another 140 bhp." Thanks, Kong!

The car you are looking at probably has an AMG body kit. It looks sportier, but the car probably has a smaller engine. One thing to watch for is whether it is a rebadged S430. If you're paying for an S500, be sure you're getting one. They have a 5.0 liter non-turbocharged engine (the S430 has a 4.3 liter non-turbo engine). The AMG trim may have been an original option on the car, or it may be aftermarket. Some vendors sell the actual AMG body kit, brakes and wheels; other sell knockoffs of the kits. However, without the engine modifications and other changes, it is not an S55 AMG.

For reliability, you're probably better off without the S55's turbocharged engine.

Advice on where to find manuals is at post #15 at Airmatic On Or Off? - MBWorld.org Forums. If the '00 Owner's manual is no longer available online, you will be given an address or phone number at Mercedes where you can order a set. Note the free download for the COMAND manual on Paul Dick's website.

Some additional considerations: You will not be able to get a warranty with over 100K miles on the car. You should consider keeping a cash reserve for repairs.

Tele-Aid for you car will be analog; some '00 models cannot be updated with the digital replacement. Tele-Aid is a subscription service similar to GM's OnStar - you could call for assistance, and if you had an accident resulting in airbag deployment, Tele-Aid service would be notified of the deployment and your GPS location. Nice if you were knocked out. However, all analog cell service will be discontinued in the U.S. very shortly - perhaps within weeks. If you cannot upgrade to the digital Tele-Aid, you will lose that feature. Keep an authorized dealer's number handy in your cell phone in case you run into trouble.

You will like the COMAND better if the car was made after November 1999. It will have a "D" navigation system, for which you can still get updated CDs. See D-Nav? - MBWorld.org Forums to see a good check (but it requires at least one nav CD be available). The date of the car's manufacture is on a sticker on the driver side door sill.

Also, the CD slot in the COMAND is for the nav CD only- not music CDs. Music CDs go in the 6-disc changer in the trunk. I tell you this because you don't have an owner's manual; it's the first mistake many folks make.

Do a very careful Carfax review on the car, and be sure the dealer pulls its maintenance history (an authorized dealer can do this). As a repo, it may not have been maintained well. The records will tell.

Pay attention to what the mechanic tells you. Someone who gave the car an AMG appearance may also have driven it hard. That inevitably causes premature wear. If he gives it a strong OK, then you're probably in good shape.

If it's thumbs down, look at a good pre-owned E-Class or C-Class. For the same money you can get a newer one with lower mileage than the '00 S500; and they do not have the Airmatic system concerns. Or, you might want to consider this car - 2000 S500 4Sale: Htd/Ac Front & Rear Seats, Parktronic, Starmrk Warr $20k or b/o - MBWorld.org Forums.
 
#19 ·
Wacky Scientist, you may have an oddball there. If I recall correctly, the first from-the-factory AMG S-class was the S55 AMG, which appeared in Model Year 2001. None of the factory AMG cars keeps the non-AMG nomenclature (e.g., S500). I'm concerned that the car you're discussing may have some aftermarket AMG content, or may just be misrepresented.

Meanwhile, your mission statement will be well suited by any solid S500. They're very high-performance cars that are also comfortable and quiet, absolutely in a different universe from your earlier cars.

I drove an early S55 AMG and found it to be a "tuner car", dramatic but lumpy compared to the S500. More recent AMG cars are better integrated.
 
#24 ·
mr.x: I have to disagree: It IS a modern classic by every definition I can think of--IMO.

Sky: I think it may be time for another Skylaw Sticky--this time in the W220 forum. You have succinctly condensed most of what I have read and posted in a couple hundred threads over at least a couple years, and I believe it would be very useful to others--especially newbies--who have neither the time nor the inclination to DIG through so much stuff. It is a daunting task under the best of circumstances, and as I believe I've heard bear say before, a bit like trying to drink from a fire hose. Perhaps you could provide us w/ a nice little garden hose? Just a thought...
 
#28 · (Edited)
Sky: I think it may be time for another Skylaw Sticky--this time in the W220 forum. You have succinctly condensed most of what I have read and posted in a couple hundred threads over at least a couple years, and I believe it would be very useful to others--especially newbies--who have neither the time nor the inclination to DIG through so much stuff. It is a daunting task under the best of circumstances, and as I believe I've heard bear say before, a bit like trying to drink from a fire hose. Perhaps you could provide us w/ a nice little garden hose? Just a thought...
I agree also. That doc was as succinct as could be and should be a sticky. It reminded me that I need to build one for the 124 forum as well.

Also, there is no photo sticky here. Is everyone just shy and reclusive?

FYI, took the new car on a 200 mile road trip yesterday with most of it Interstate [cruise set on 80] to pick up parts for the 560SEC and got 25.3 average for the trip.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Thank you, Jayhawk. I think you can see a reflection of your own work and observations above. Having owned a '00, I agree with your point of view on the earlier models. But for the opportunity to get the 4-Matic (not available in the W220 until '03) I would still be driving my '00.
 
#26 ·
Thank you, Jayhawk. I think you can see a reflection of your own work and observations above. Having owned a '00, I agree with your point of view on the earlier models. But for the opportunity to get the 4-Matic (not available in the W220 until '03) I would still be driving my '00.
Agreed, the 4-matic would be a nice option on my '00. I still really like my old bucket-of-bolts though and decided to get ultra-performance Eagle F1, 18" summer tires on AMG wheels--both staggered, and put Michelin X-Ice tires on my seven spoke OEM wheels for winter. Not exactly the same as 4-matic, but the ride, handling and performance are incredible. It also saved me almost $100k less than the price of a new S-class!
 
#30 ·
Guys,

Until we can build a proper W220 Buyers Guide I am just going to put this one up as a Sticky in the mean time.

And by proper I mean cut and pasting the excellent writeup Skylaw did earlier in this thread along with some of the links that he referenced. Once it is a concise document we can use it only and let this one roll off.

Thanks again for everyone's help in the purchase of my shinny silver S500. Pics will follow as soon as the rain subsides.
 
#31 ·
Hi - I too am looking at the same vehicle '03 4matic with about 40K miles. Has good carfax although I have not seen specific books and records. The posts make it seem like '03+ were the ones to get for this generation. How has it been so far? I recently sold my '95 W140 S500 which was fantastic! I hesitate when I see so much plastic in the new ones. Thoughts ? I also have found a 560SEL and a 450SEL both of which look in really good shape.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Why an '03 S-Class?




Mr. Mazza, you ask excellent questions, and the answers are matters of taste and mission statement.

First, on the mission statement, if you're in a climate where the car will see ice and snow, or even lots of heavy rain, 4Matic is a tremendous plus. That rules out the earlier cars.

Second, as to taste, I also enjoy the immense solidity of the '90s S-Class (W140) cars, but not their relatively lumpy handling; they're not anywhere near as much fun to drive as the 2000+ S-Class (W220) cars.

The first few years of W220 had too much plastic and too little build quality, but by 2003 that was well sorted out. My car has just as solid a feeling as the late-90s S500s and S600s I've driven, and is just as quiet and comfortable, but is an absolute blast to drive on twisty roads.

The computers controlling throttle and transmission really do adapt to your driving style, and my car now knows very well how to scoot, and to hold each gear to redline when I floor it. It's LOTS of fun when that makes sense (particularly with the AMG staggered wheels and the right non-winter tires), then I set the air suspension to full soft and it's a peaceful long-haul cruiser for four adults of any size.

Everything always works, and my dealer is amazingly good at supporting the car.

There is one weakness I know of in the '03-ish cars compared to those from a few years later, which is the seals at the tops of the front suspension struts. The older design can leak air over time. The new replacement parts do not leak. If your car is still under warranty, these seals can be replaced with that coverage.

One minor nuisance with the '03 compared to the '04 and later is that the nav system uses a deck of CDs rather than a single DVD to cover the US and Canada. On long trips, I need now and then to change discs. This has not turned out to be a major nuisance. MBUSA continues to make updated CDs available for this generation of nav systems.

The phone system adapts cleanly to modern Bluetooth phones by replacing the Moto V60 phone that came with the cars with a "puck" sold by M-B and third parties that speaks Bluetooth to your phone and looks like a phone to the COMAND system. Result is smooth integration of all features and high quality handsfree operation.

I could go on and on, but I think you can see that I heartily endorse the '03 S500 4Matic!
 
#34 ·
Yes, you can use staggered wheels on 4Matic IF you match revs per mile

If you're going to use different sizes of tire front and rear on any AWD car, and this includes 4Matic, it is absolutely necessary that all four tires make the same number of revs per mile.

This number can be found, for example, in Tire Rack's "Spec" section for each model of tire. Different tire models of the same nominal size can have different revs per mile, so you must shop carefully.

My car came with 225/55-17 Conti CH95 tires, which make 769 revs per mile. For the winter, I replaced these tires on the OE rims with Nokian Hakkapeliitta RSi tires in that same size and got excellent results. For the rest of the year, I got a set of AMG wheels and now run Bridgestone RE960AS Pole Positions (chosen with lots of help from Luke at Tire Rack) in size 245/45-18 on the front (780 revs per mile) and 275/40-18 on the rear (780 revs per mile, a perfect match).

Apart from getting a delightful combination of stick, crisp steering response, quiet, and smooth ride, along with a nicely hungus appearance, I have no problems with the 4Matic. The Bridgestones replaced the Dunlop SP Sport 9000 tires in the same sizes (and speced at 780 and 779 revs per mile f and r) that came on my wheels when I bought them. The Dunlops were hard and noisy, but also caused no problem with the 4Matic.

I got to these tire sizes over the inital objection of the tire makers and M-B, who put 265/40-18s on the rears in the sport package for the S500. That size can run smaller in rolling radius than the 275/40-18, but matches up well with the 245/40-18 in the summer-only "max performance" tires such as the Bridgestone RE050.
 
#35 ·
If you're going to use different sizes of tire front and rear on any AWD car, and this includes 4Matic, it is absolutely necessary that all four tires make the same number of revs per mile.

This number can be found, for example, in Tire Rack's "Spec" section for each model of tire. Different tire models of the same nominal size can have different revs per mile, so you must shop carefully.

My car came with 225/55-17 Conti CH95 tires, which make 769 revs per mile. For the winter, I replaced these tires on the OE rims with Nokian Hakkapeliitta RSi tires in that same size and got excellent results. For the rest of the year, I got a set of AMG wheels and now run Bridgestone RE960AS Pole Positions (chosen with lots of help from Luke at Tire Rack) in size 245/45-18 on the front (780 revs per mile) and 275/40-18 on the rear (780 revs per mile, a perfect match).

Apart from getting a delightful combination of stick, crisp steering response, quiet, and smooth ride, along with a nicely hungus appearance, I have no problems with the 4Matic. The Bridgestones replaced the Dunlop SP Sport 9000 tires in the same sizes (and speced at 780 and 779 revs per mile f and r) that came on my wheels when I bought them. The Dunlops were hard and noisy, but also caused no problem with the 4Matic.

I got to these tire sizes over the inital objection of the tire makers and M-B, who put 265/40-18s on the rears in the sport package for the S500. That size can run smaller in rolling radius than the 275/40-18, but matches up well with the 245/40-18 in the summer-only "max performance" tires such as the Bridgestone RE050.
Thanks for the info. I had a lot of help from Luke too when I got my recent wheels and tires.
 
#36 ·
Kong9999,

You are correct about keeping the number of revolutions per mile the same, front and rear, with a 4-Matic. If one considers "staggered" wheels to be simply wheels with different widths, then the advice would hold.

However, most of the folks I have seen inquire about "staggered" wheels are also talking about different wheel diameters, which of course would have different revs per mile.

And others would place the exact same tires on wheels of different widths - which can result in different revs per mile.

Your examples carefully considered wheels with the same diameters, and tires matched to the wheel widths so that the revolutions per mile are the same - which would work fine with the 4-Matic.
 
#37 ·
You're welcome. Jayhawk.

Thanks, Skylaw, for pointing out the effect of rim width on revs/mile. Tire Rack's "Spec" listings (and the detailed spec sheets downloadable from most tire manufacturer's Web sites) will show, for each size of a given model of tire, both the range of permissible rim widths and the rim width at which they measured the other numbers shown.

Putting fat tires on skinny rims (or skinny tires on wide rims, as used to be popular in certain urban cultures) is a no-no for all sorts of safety and performance reasons apart from changing revs per mile. The fat-on-skinny approach invites excessive wear of the center of the tread, as well as the bead pulling off the rim.

I think M-B usually uses "staggered" to refer to different rim widths of the same diameter, though having different rim diameters (as well as the ambulatory path of certain folks after a heavy Saturday night) might also be covered by this versatile adjective.

At least in theory, you can mix rim diameters and still, by careful choice of tires, keep the revs per mile matched. Trick is finding extremely low aspect ratio tires for the larger-diameter wheels.
 
#38 ·
Another consideration

Apart from all the other niceties, it's important to consider tire pressure. Even though the belts of radial tires are hard to stretch, putting more air pressure into the tire will increase its rolling radius a little, thus dropping its revs per mile in the same proportion.

Note that the tire pressure placard inside the gas door does not call for the same pressures f and r, even in a 4Matic car. The principle of giving the rears a bit more pressure to make them a bit less likely to slide out and cause the car to start coming around during, for example, heavy braking, applies no matter which wheels drive the car.

I spoke with a tech rep at MBUSA who told me that they recommend exactly the same pressures f and r for the Sport Package cars (with the staggered and wide wheels and tires) as for the standard OE wheels and tires. He explained that the car weighs the same either way, and he confirmed my assumption that the wide tires' contact patches would sort themselves out until they were the same areas (though not the same shapes) as those of the OE tires.
 
#39 ·
^^^I always assumed that the less psi the greater the traction and the more psi the less traction--not the opposite as you suggest. In fact, I believe that Luke told me to run my Goodyear Eagle F1's at 36 front and 33 rear. Is that wrong?
 
#40 ·
Rear brakes

While we're at it, the priority of not having the rear end come around in heavy braking is so strong in the minds of car makers that they tend to reduce the capabilities of the rear brakes, usually by adjusting the proportion of brake fluid pressure (or the maximum pressure to the rears) to put more on the fronts.

The result is that the fronts will break loose first, causing the car to plow nose first into whatever you didn't stop soone enough to avoid, rather than all four tires doing as much they can, with a consequent reduction in stopping distance.

On another car, I took advantage of the availability of different front-rear proportioning valves for the brake system to get closer to this performance ideal, and the feel of braking is delightfully improved. The car feels much less like it's standing on its nose, and steering is more responsive under heavy braking because the fronts aren't doing so much of the stopping.
I did not use the most extreme alternative, which asks the rears to do more than the fronts; that is useful only in racing conditions, where you don't mind provoking a bit of oversteer as you brake for a corner.

One relatively safe way to experiment with all of this is on a bicycle with separate levers for front and rear brakes.
 
#41 ·
Front-rear tire pressure considerations

Sorry, Jayhawk. I was typing while your newest note came in, but here's my reply.

My understanding is that a softer (lower PSI) tire will break loose sooner than a harder one, all other things being equal, and that this is because the softer tire's tread will squirm and start lifting off the pavement sooner than the harder one. I'm talking about street tires here, not drag radials, which are intended to flow around and into the texture of the pavement to deliver more than 1 g acceleration (and whose sidewalls wrinkle like cellophane).

More pressure is good only up to a point. A seriously overinflated tire will lose traction because the center of the tread will bulge, taking weight off the edges of the tread. Making the tire harder also ask more of the shocks to keep the tread on the road, rather than bouncing. This is even more serious if it's the front tires bouncing, because you then lose steering capability as well.

Meanwhile, M-B always tells you to put more air in the rears than the fronts, despite the fact that the front tires carry more weight in at least most models. Tire makers in turn follow car makers' recommendations very closely.

Swapping the F and R numbers you report would be in line with M-B's general approach, and with what both theory and experiment suggest to me. Going to 33 f and 36 r should give you more balanced handling and less nervous steering.

My experience under controlled performance-driving conditions (in the other car to which I refer from time to time) is that I'm more likely to experience oversteer if I don't put up the rear pressures a bit relative to the front.

Powerful RWD cars whose power gets used wear the rear tires faster than the fronts (even the 4Matic cars apply more torque to the rears, and I've observed more tire wear at the rears on my car). Having a bit more pressure in the rear will moderate this differential wear a bit. Again in my experience, letting the rears get soft in a powerful RWD car results in more squirming and wheelspin under hard acceleration.

Sorry if this doesn't add up to a hard-and-fast commandment. All I can do is share what I know and understand; the choices are yours.
 
#42 · (Edited)
Some More Comparison Information

A contributor asked a question related to which year of W220 to select, from '03 on. I thought the response had relevance to this string, so I'm posting it here too. Sorry for the duplication, but it does expand a bit. The lead-in to each paragraph identifies what his questions were.

Regarding reliability, bottom line is, the '03 model year saw the beginning of quality improvements, and most of the mechanicals were done by '04. Electronics improvements continued through '05 (which is nearly identical to '06). See http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220-s-class/1381621-2004-vs-2005-s500-4m.html and especially post #3 at differences between 2004 S 500 2006 S 500 - MBWorld.org Forums

Regarding adding an iPod, if you buy an '04 or later (these have MOST-based COMANDs, easily identified because it has a DVD-based navigation system with a reader in the trunk), you can use the Dension Gateway 500 for MOST bus. You will have steering wheel controls, and the text-capable COMAND gives you song titles on the COMAND screen and track info on the instrument cluster. With that, the Dension Gateway 500 is a very useable iPod option. See Gateway 500 for MOST – Good Unit, Poor Documentation - MBWorld.org Forums.

The '03 had an AUX input, but it is the only U.S. specification W220 (S-Class) to have it. See http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220-s-class/1305050-2001-s430-ipod-intergation.html You only get the analog music feed with the AUX; you get no steering wheel control or readouts from the iPod. Sorting, song selection, and reading song titles must be done on the iPod; but the 3.5mm stereo cable is dirt cheap.

The '03 is the only U.S. W220 that can be fitted with the MB/Apple iPod kit (which provides steering wheel controls, and song titles on the instrument cluster display, but nothing on COMAND) - because the kit requires the AUX jack. Audio is better from the Gateway 500 kit, because it is a direct feed over fiber optics and escapes the compression MB designed into the AUX input.

The '03 has a wide screen COMAND, but is D2B based (it uses CDs for navigation, with the nav CD reader in the COMAND itself) and does not have a text-capable display. A Gateway 500 is available for the '03 and earlier W220s, but you will not get song titles on the COMAND or instrument cluster displays. You get track information, but sorting and selection is best done with the iPod (which the GW 500 will let you do). You can still change tracks and volume with the steering wheel buttons.

The W220 comes with either of two types of suspensions: Airmatic, a pneumatic system; and Active Body Control (ABC), an hydraulic system with additional computer control. Both are complex systems that will require maintenance; both are responsible for the superb ride and handling of the W220. Airmatic systems on earlier cars tended to fail more often than on the '03 and later - the '04s and on are less problematic. However, there is no such thing a a "bulletproof" pneumatic suspension system. Seals and pumps will wear, and struts will have to be replaced. You'd have to do the same thing with standard shocks, too - but Airmatic will be more expensive. The system has been written about a LOT, so I'm going to invite you to read and digest some of what you have already seen - especially in some of the newer posts. Start with post #6 at http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220-s-class/1329314-s-class-airmatic-woes-yes-again.html. The best protection is to become familiar with the early signs of airmatic problems, and fix them right away. Letting them go runs the cost up.

ABC systems provide greater roll control and eliminate any "nosedive" even with heavy braking (not that there is much of either with Airmatic). One failure point, subject to inspection and free replacement, has been a high-pressure line from the pump. They are not especially problematic, but like any complex system, they break - and any luxury car is expensive to repair.

Regarding any choices between an S500 and an S430, there was more differentiation in earlier models. S500s through '03 had more standard equipment (and still do), but some equipment on the S500 was simply not available on the S430. That changed in '04, with most of the equipment for the S500 (except, of course, the engine) available for the S430; but more was standard on the S500 than on the S430. Some of the biggest differences in standard equipment were wood trim and the quality of leather. I mention this just in case you come across a good buy on an S430 - which, while having less horsepower, still has a great engine. The S350 version of the W220 was a more recent introduction in the U.S., becoming available only for '05 and '06. It had been available in Europe for much longer. It has less power yet, but is lighter; it was sold only in the "short wheelbase" (SWB) version in the U.S. Some like its styling better than the S500 or S430 (all of which, in U.S. versions, were long wheelbase).

As to "what year is best" - it depends on your own preferences. An '03 or later will be more reliable, and a lower-mileage car in an older model year may be better than a high mileage later model. For electronics and telematics, '04 and later are better for Pod integration (with a 3rd party kit) because of song title readout and sound quality, but the '03 AUX makes adding an iPod cheap - but there is very little "integration" with only the 3.5mm cable; you'll need the the MB iPod kit for that (roughly the same cost as the Gateway 500 kit). Making up for lack of the AUX, the '04 and later models can play DVD audio tracks (but not video in U.S. versions!!!) and mp3 DVDs - you can burn your entire music collection to DVDs and not worry about an iPod if you wish (not my choice, but you can do it). For ease of cell phone integration and flexibility, the '05 and '06 are your clear choice (IF the car already has the handsfree option installed).

If the cars you are interested in do not have phone systems installed, you're really in for some "fun." See http://www.benzworld.org/forums/aud...13173-how-guide-cell-phone-upgrades-plug.html.
 
#43 ·
Thank you all for the information, my husband and I are looking for an S500 to tote our child(ren) in...(once we have them). I wanted to get an older model, well simply because I like that body style, and that "solid car feel". But it is time to move on and into something more up to date. This thread has given us some great insight on what to watch out for.
 
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