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SBC and NHTSA : UPDATE M-B Warranty has been extended

99K views 166 replies 59 participants last post by  Noodles 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Admin Edit:
M-B warranty for this issue has been extended as of August 17, 2018. For more complete information and directions on this warranty, please follow the links provided at the bottom of this Edit. Excerpts from a PDF version of the official letter are as follows.


IMPORTANT EXTENDED WARRANTY INFORMATION UPDATE
The warranty on the SBC Hydraulic Unit for MY 2003-2006 Model 211, MY 2006 Model 219, and Model Year 2003-2012 Model 230/231 was extended from the original 4 years/50,000 miles to 25 years with no mileage limitation. The SBC Hydraulic Unit extended warranty applies to all conditions that justify the replacement of the SBC Hydraulic Unit and specific listed components under the standard New Vehicle Limited Warranty terms and conditions. Please note that the warranty extension now includes: Model Year 2004-2012 Model 240, and Model Year 2005-2009 Model 199 vehicles.

The following vehicle model and model years are covered:
Model : Model Years
E-Class : 2003-2006
CLS-Class : 2006
SL-Class : 2003-2012
Maybach : 2004-2012
SLR-Class : 2005-2009

Discussion of the warranty begins at Post 109 (link provided).
A PDF attachment of the warranty letter is at Post 134 (link provided).

Admin Edit end. Original Post begins below.


I have been in contact with the NHTSA regarding the SBC service threshold issue. They advised me to have as many owners of vehicles with these units to contact them via www.safercar.gov and file a complaint. This is the only way the NHTSA will take any action.

This is a safety issue since the brakes go into backup mode with no prior warning. At the very least MB should issue a recall to interrogate the units with STAR DAS.

Thanks for your help.

John

Below is what I submitted to the NHTSA website. It will ask for date of incident, but just use the date you file.

This vehicle is equipped with Sensotronic Brake Control that has a service threshold. When this threshold is reached the brake system defaults to non power assisted hydraulic mode to the front wheels only. This occurs without any prior warning and results in increased stopping distance. I have sent a copy of the Mercedes service bulletin S142.46-P-0012A which addresses this issue. Mercedes stopped installing this system in 2006. At the very least, Mercedes should issue a mandatory recall to interrogate these vehicles with STAR DAS to determine how close to the service threshold the SBC unit is and replace them at the dealer's expense. This is a major safety issue that needs to be addressed.
 
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#75 ·
Thanks John,
Yes, this was my first and hopefully last experience of this type, but I have the W211 for less then a year so far.
I had to get a replacement for my 99 ML320 that was t-boned but I miss both of my W163's and I believe they were better than the sedan in every aspect except for gas mileage. I drove my W126 280SE daily for straight 10 years and did the same with my ML, I don't see doing it with this W211. Rear cat converters are rattling, A/C constantly ON and I can call it unpredictable compare to my other cars.
I have already filed with NHTSA and got my claim number.
I will plug my scanner in one more time to see if I didn't over look the counter and I can post pressure reading of the pump.
I also got the schematic from Witek (thank you) to check the charging system for SBC battery.
Any thoughts on failing mechanical parts of the SBC system, like leaking diaphragm in pressure accumulator (Bosch 0265202070)? Would anyone have a procedure for replacing it? It would be a lot cheaper option than the whole pump assembly.
 
#76 ·
I contacted MBUSA this week to discuss SBC on my 2006 E320 CDI. MBUSA insists the 06 model W211 is not covered in any recall or that there have been any issues with SBC is this model year. I asked for them to provide the technical information detailing what changed between the 05 system which is covered and the 06 model which is not. They have not provided that information and act like they will be very hard pressed to do so if I continue to move this forward.

Does anyone here know of design changes to the SBC system or the pump for the 06 model year? I'm given to understand that for vehicles in later model years like S class that continued to use SBC the electric motor brushes are much more robust than on earlier models which went far to remedy the problems experience with the 03-06 cars.

Any information on this that could be shared would be deeply appreciated. I love the car and want to insure anyone in my family who drives it will be safe on the road and not confronted with a car that suddenly only has 10% of its braking power available. I'm at 200k miles and can't help but believe based on reports I'm reading the SBC could be reaching an activation level that would trigger the warnings discussed here.

Best,
Ron
 
#78 ·
Hey all,
Had bi-annual brake fluid flush done by indy, and 1week later and aprox. half way through 2,000. mile trip the
BRAKE Service brake Visit workshop, in white, appeared.

Note:
Always had dealer do brake fluid flush prior, but given age of car & mileage (106,000. mi) I figured by now Indy could save some $.

I completed my trip with the warning remaining on.

Had same indy that did brake fluid flush check codes yesterday, and they informed me the SBC pump needs to be replaced.
Unfortunately I did not press the tech at the time about actuations/readings/code(s)/etc.
Guess I just figured it was coincidental.

Question:
Is it possible there is air in the system causing this warning message?

Thanks in advance for any comments/info
 
#79 ·
Call your indy back and ask WHY it needs replacing. If it's because it reached it's lifetime cycles, there is nothing you can do to get rid of the light.

We drove ours around with the light on for a few weeks with no issues, but after getting quotes from multiple indys and the dealer we had the dealer replace it. The quotes were all between $1600-$1800 here in Portland. Ouch.

We haven't had any issue since the replacement a few months ago. I certainly hope we don't!

Good luck!
Ian
 
#81 ·
Thanks for the replies.

Not like it really matters, but I only drove the car very little before heading out on the 2,000. mile round trip.
I did check in service date, and am outside of extended warranty by a couple of weeks.

I was going to ask about code and why it needs replacing, but wanted to suggest the possibility of air in system if relevant. (from recent fluid flush)

So I had SBC replaced today and that seems to be fine, however, now the radio only displays splash screen for a minute or two and goes blank.

UGH!
Indy says he was not aware of any problem with radio and said he wouldn't know if it was working when brought in.

Maybe for another thread, but does anyone know if the radio could be "reset"?
Or what could have happened to the radio during this SBC pump replacement?

Thanks in advance........you guys are great.
 
#82 ·
Thanks for the replies.

Not like it really matters, but I only drove the car very little before heading out on the 2,000. mile round trip.
I did check in service date, and am outside of extended warranty by a couple of weeks.

I was going to ask about code and why it needs replacing, but wanted to suggest the possibility of air in system if relevant. (from recent fluid flush)

So I had SBC replaced today and that seems to be fine, however, now the radio only displays splash screen for a minute or two and goes blank.

UGH!
Indy says he was not aware of any problem with radio and said he wouldn't know if it was working when brought in.

Maybe for another thread, but does anyone know if the radio could be "reset"?
Or what could have happened to the radio during this SBC pump replacement?

EDIT: Disconnected main battery in trunk for 5 minutes, and radio is back to normal/reset clock

Thanks in advance........you guys are great.
 
#83 ·
I'm now dealing with the SBC issue on my 2005 E320 CDI with just under 160,000 miles. I had the visit workshop notice for brakes (white warning). I specifically took it to the local MB dealer and told them I was there versus an interdependent shop to make sure I did not have an issue with my SBC unit. I was pretty sure I just needed front brake pads and possibly new rotors.

I was told a thorough inspection would be done and they would get back to me. I then received a VERY detailed list of suggested work need and recommended. Everything from a windshield ding, to motor mounts (which curiously were recently replaced at an independent shop), to the actual rotors and pads needed on the front. NO recommendation or notes about SBC issues.

I ok'd the front brake service and another minor issue for just under $900 in charges. I eventually got a call stating that the SBC failed on the test drive AFTER repairs were done and I needed to have additional repairs done to replace the SBC at the cost of $1960 which they claim is being offered at a discount of $1100!!!

I pushed back, they had me call MB customer care to ask for an extension of the 10 year warranty. They denied.

After some review, I asked if the techs disabled the SBC unit before replacing the pads. I was told that they did not as it is only required for the tech safety and it is the ONLY reason to do so...it does nothing to protect the pump. Yes, I have that in a text from the dealership.

I have been told that if the pads are forced back into the caliper with SBC still enabled, it causes an issue with the accumulator that can cause the failure they are describing.

Does anyone have any support of this theory?

I offered to pay $700 towards the repair to get it resolved and avoid a drawn out fight but they aren't willing to make any adjustments. I escalated to the head of service and was told he was checking with MB and I should know more Monday.

I feel like I've been a victim, at best, of a dealership screwing up and expecting me to pay for it, or at worst, a dishonest attempt to blackmail me into paying more after other repairs were done. My thoughts are it was an honest mistake by their tech, but I don't think I should cover the entire costs.

Regardless, I have car stuck at the dealership pending resolution.

If anyone has any helpful suggestions to help with a reasonable resolution, I would appreciate the comments.

I'm even open to a correction of my idea that the failure to deactivate the SBC unit prior to pad install caused the failure.
 
#86 ·
You have a warning which is brought out to your attention because of a code, what is the code? Bad brake accumulator or cycle count reached?
I'm guessing your pads and rotors were still fine but if dealer would replace SBC unit for $1,100 first, the warning light would be gone and you wouldn't need $900 front brake job. On my 03 E320 I had the same warning at 125,000 miles, I didn't disable anything when was time to replace front rotors and pads but my little scanner showed all components fine including pressures and pedal switch but max activation cycle count was reached. Drove with brake warning on every startup for 6 months (5K miles) till I bought SBC reset tool from e-bay for $25 and moved the cycle count back 25%. If your accumulator is bad, if would have a code and the replacement would be $150 plus labor (you can buy new OEM Bosch for $118). I drive Mercedes cars for passed 25 years, I would let my local dealer do the recalls and tires, I will hear out their opinion, which most of the time I had to laugh it but did all repairs needed on my own including engine swap in S class and transmission swap in my ML.
Stay away from dealer unless the service manager is your best buddy.
My 2 cents, Bernard
 
#87 ·
Bernard,

Thank you for the response and your comments.

I don't have the code as I don't have diagnostic tools. I'll need to ask.

It was the "white" warning to get to a workshop, my assumption was it needed pads and possibly rotors, which ended up being recommended, so not brake accumulator or cycle count reached codes as I believe they would have disclosed that up front based on my specifically asking them to review the SBC unit for any codes.

I only went to the dealer in this instance because a friend recently had the same shop replace his SBC unit under good will warranty after a failure. His was an 05 with close to 200,000 miles. BTW, they are quoting $3,000 for the SBC replacement, but are "generously" offering me a discount, LOL. I still believe they damaged the SBC unit by forcing the pads in place without disabling the SBC unit.

Lesson learned for me based on your comments...I'll look into buying my own diagnostic tools and wrench it myself as I do my motorcycles (for the most part - not major items).

Thanks,
Staton
 
#89 · (Edited)
Yes, it is. He is much more mechanically/technically inclined than I am and was able to make his point for the replacement. There may have been some extenuating circumstances that I am not aware of.

It's also interesting that he wrote up a very detailed analysis of the SBC system that was posted either here or another site that is no longer available.

I'll try to clarify which MB site it was. EDIT: Not this site.

Not sure why it was removed.
 
#90 ·
I had the red warning ones but couldn't find anything wrong with the SBC system, my thought was pump supply voltage was under minimum limit.
The white warning I had for 6 months, brakes working perfectly, then I reset activation count to 75% to get rid off warning. I bet your brakes are working fine with reached cycle count.
I will have to see if I can find picture with the code for reached max limit of activation count.
 

Attachments

#91 ·
I had to replace our SBC last year at 185k miles. The dealer offered to take the cost of the diagnostic time off the SBC replacement which saved $150 or so. It was still around $1800. Even the indy mechanics were within $100 of the dealer quotes.

I didn't know there was a tool to reset the cycle count as I would have probably done that instead. I DIY almost everything but couldn't figure out how to do this one and I figured it would be easier to sell eventually with a dealer repaired SBC.

The dealer should be able to show you the quote with the codes. Ours did.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk
 
#92 ·
Update. They ended up covering all but $700 for the SBC replacement. I now have a two year warranty on it and I am OK with the results.

All in all, I'm not pleased that the repair was needed early (in my mind), but it may have been needed eventually anyway. At least this way, I have a two year warranty on the SBC now.

Than you all for the comments and observations. Moving forward, I'll tackle these items myself.
 
#98 ·
Hi All,

I know I am very very late in discussing this. I have a 2004 E320 and it showed the service brake warning about 4 years ago. My Mechanic diagnosed it and told me it is sorted out which i knew later that he reset the counter and thus the warning was eliminated. 1 month ago it showed the warning again, I went to another mechanic who diagnosed it and it should pressure reservoir. He advised that in this case it is better to change the whole SBC unit (1500 USD) rather than changing the resevoir only (150 USD) as changing the resevoir will only eliminate the warning for few month and then the pump will fail suddenly with the risk of no brakes totally. Another one told me that I can change the resevoir it can work for more additional years.

Any advise from anyone who is expert in this or passed through the same? Should i proceed with the resevoir only and save the 1300 USD now or should I go for the full SBC?
 
#99 ·
Ive seen a few opinions on this. The replacing the whole pump also covers the issue of a bad presure sensor IF thats the case. Ive read where people have replaced the resivoir and had the whole pump fail in a short time and others who have replaced the pump and had no more issues, however on those post they didnt list their miles. Im wondering if you have a lower miles car that its age killing the diaphram causing the failure. So a question to you is how many miles do you have.
Youll also see post where when the resivoir itself is only changed people still remove the whole pump but this isnt needed. Simply unhooking the upper most location of the rubber hose above it and then there is a bracket which the harness is zip tied to. remove the zip tie and the bracket comes off with one torx bit removed.
I saw one post where somebody claimed to do this without STAR but my experience is anything related with this system will piss it off needed carsoft to reset if resetable. other than that you need STAR. When I changed mine on my E55 with 109k miles I just swapped the resivoir and then the fault still didnt want to clear, however after doing a presure test all was ok and the fault gone. It would appear the system didnt even need to be bled but I did afterwards and never saw bubbles, go figure. This was my first time using star and i thought i had depresurized the system before removal but later found I was in simulator which is why it was swapped without depresurizing and then reactivating. luckily i didnt hurt anything.
My local indy shop wanted over a grand just to change the resivoir which prompted me to get a star setup on ebay. got a complete setup from a US seller in texas and it was ready to go out of the box. I got the resivoir for about 85 dollars from FCP Euro. Hopefully you can find somebody close to you with star as without taking the pump out its only about a 10 to 15 minute job.
 
#100 ·
I have an E-500 W211 Wagon with 135K Mi. I purchased it used 2 years ago with 110K from a fellow who had just replaced the front axle , both front rotors, and added new Bembo Brakes. ( I have service records ). He also had a dealer in PA replace the brake fluid and flushed the SBC system. The first owner lived in No NJ/ NYC , so they must have used the brakes a lot and probably hit potholes that bent the axle. About 3 months ago ( 2k mi) the white brake warning light came on. I took it to an independent mechanic who said the code indicated a problem with the pressure reservoir ( but it might have been the "counter" ). He said replacing the whole SBC system would be over $4K, but it should work OK even if the pressure sensor was bad ( or reservoir wasn't holding pressure) since the hydraulic system was separate and should work OK when I used the brakes , they just wouldn't be fully charged upon startup. He didn't mention any counters.

The other day in COLD weather the dreaded RED reserve brake warning lights came on, with 5% braking power when backing out of the driveway.
I parked the car and started reading posts on this board. One said a restart might clear the problem, which worked. The owners manual also said low battery would cause the SBC system to go into reserve mode. Since it was very cold, then the problem cleared up and hasn't come back ( 10+ restarts) I can only assume that the COLD weather caused a computer low voltage indication. I also talked with another Independent Mechanic that specializes in Benz work. He said all these cars need new SBC systems after 10-12 years, but mentioned nothing about counters or resetting counters. He wants about $2K to replace the whole system and recommended that approach rather that trying to fix the sensor or just getting a new reservoir.

I already had a local dealer replace the left front airshock assy, ( $4000) when they forgot to tie down the connector cable to the Airshock control unit in the center of the front axle . That unit then failed the next week ( another $1500 bill- this time from my mechanic). I do not trust that dealer to do Anything .They took 5 days to do shoddy work, then helped me empty my checking account . I suppose their loaned C-320 was supposed to make me want a new money eater. There is a reason why folks do not recommend buying a Benz ( or BMW or Audi) that is out of warranty. These systems work great when new but are expensive to fix. I don't mind fixing systems that are broke but I DO NOT want to spend $2500+ to fix something because a "counter" says the car is getting old. So... I will wait for another RED warning , then replace the SBC system in the future. The White warning may or may not mean anything. I will look into counter reset methodology if I want to sell this beast before the right front and rear air shocks fail.
 
#101 ·
advice sought -- buy or forsake

greetings all!

so my trusty w124-E320 is getting a bit older, and i need a safe and comfy daily driver. staying with the E, i am sort of inclined towards a 2002 w211-e320. just as i wanted to take the car for a test spin, the seller told me that i could not cause of the brake-warning. Though all ought to be OK, he did not find this appropriate, and therefore advised me to come back once this all was sorted out. So this took a while, and today finally all was clear and I tested. Sure, neat car, good options, comfy drive and all.

He also has a w211-240. Good car as well, so trying to balance. Both have roughly same mileage, so when will this one be up for SBC? And what would have been the price of a repair and so he gave me the dealer quote.

Right then. Why did it take so long, and was the 320 equipped with a revised or an all new SBC pump? Then came the story. So he says he bought an entirely new unit, but it failed to talk to ESP. And instead of hooking it up to STAR, they did the following:

- took out the electronics from the old pump that came with the car
-reset the count
-swapped that into the new pump (Bosch)
-put this into car
-which apparently recognized the setup

now my question: is this good practise? Anyone heard of this approach? Sure, i understand that doing the entire swap at dealer is the preferred way if money no issue. but is this a valid and safe approach, or would this be considered risk that is not to be taken?

Advise appreciated

J
 
#102 ·
The whole procedure sound very fishy to me, even it might be doable.
Can you confirm the pump is indeed new?
Purchase statement, maybe serial number will tell the year?
Either way, by monkey the job - seller lowered the car value and that should be calculated.
Than you are buying 16-years old car. How is corrosion on it?
 
#104 ·
here is what i did to confirm.

took my vehicle for a recall for the smell of gaz, while there they showed me that sbc thingy was done on my car, after installing the new gas tank, i asked if i can take a look at my old one, and they agreed, walked me inside and showed it to me , even tho its a mercedes benz dealer, i have learned trust no one since im immigrated from a country where officials are scumming...lol...for that im glad im a part of this great nation, GOD BLESS THE USA...lol.
 
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