Are all Mobil 1 0w40 the same? - Page 2 - Mercedes-Benz Forum
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#11 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by drivbiwire View Post
Mobil 1 5w40 ESP Formula M (MB229.51) supercedes the OLDER MB229.5 for ALL MERCEDES DIESELS.

Can your car safely run the Mobil 1 0w40, YES you can but why hold on to an older specification that was intended for high sulfur fuels?

Will your engine have BETTER protection with the newer Mobil 1 5w40 ESP Formula M (MB229.51), ABSOLUTELY! The fact is the 229.51 is formulated to maximize the benefits of ULSD fuels and the improved oil conditions you have as a result of their use. This amounts to LOWER total wear, improved oil condition throughout the oils life, and a cleaner engine with lower (near zero) acid formation.

I just got an oil sample back from another Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil (M1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40) that accumulated 22,000 miles of use (between oil changes). The verdict?

A sample was taken after the oil change and showed an inherited 3 ppm total Iron, this is what was left in the engine after the oil and filter change.

At 10,000 miles The Iron wear (PPM generated per 1000 miles of driving) was 3.23 PPM (this takes into account the iron leftover from the previous oil change). The higher wear during this period is from the first 2000-3000 miles of use which is when wear is highest due to the detergency cycle of the oil.

From 10K to 22K the WEAR RATES DROPPED to 2.95 PPM per 1000 miles! YES LOWER WEAR than the engine had seen in the first 10,000 miles of that oils life, WITHOUT adding any top-off oil, and WITHOUT changing the oil filter! It's Simple to explain, no detergency cycle to spike the wear that occurs every time you change the oil.

To put these wear rates in perspective, "Normal" wear rates are between 5.0-10.0 PPM during the first 3000 miles, dropping to 3.0-6.0 ppm per 1000 miles from 3000 onward. This engine came in UNDER the "Normal" wear range at the very end of the interval. The oil could have EASILY gone 30,000-35,000 miles between changes and yield lower wear than if the oil was changed at 5000 mile intervals! So much for the theory of better protection with early oil changes!

The only thing that would have limited the change interval was the thickening of the oil due to nanometer sized soot particles (too small to cause wear). The soot at 22K was at 2%, the oil is capable of safely running 8% without causing an increase in wear, typically 3% is about as high as you want to go since it starts to impact fuel economy due to increased pumping resistance ie thickening.

If you have a choice between Mobil 1 5w40 ESP and Mobil 1 0w40, go with the Mobil 1 5w40 since these are the top of the line oils in terms of EXTREME engine protection.
Wow, that's a lot of good information. Thanks!
So, how do you compare Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil (M1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40) with Mobil 1 ESP or MB 229.5 Spec oils? It sounds like 5w40 diesel oil is made specifically for turbo diesel engine. Wouldn't it be better than MB 229.5 Spec oil?
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#12 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by aeubank View Post
Thanks drivebywire for the writeup.

I refuse to believe some of the baloney I read from JoeVal stating that the oils are not interchangable from a diesel to a gasoline car. The oil recommended for the diesel IS the 229.51 but for somebody that ONLY uses 229.5 as per the recommendation when the car was new should not have too much of an issue superseded or not. So basically JoeVal is stating that 229.51 spec oil will NOT function correctly in a gasser.. Pure BS for sure..

Let alone all of that rambling about pragmatic shyt!!

I have heard of a few folks going to the VW dealer to see what type of oil they use for their cars. I'm planning on making a poker run over there to see what they offer for their TDI's.. The preferred oil Mobil 1 5w40 ESP Formula M is pretty hard to find here in NC but I have a dealer right down the street (M/B) that has plenty of the right spec oil..

I wouldn't get in too big of a panic if you have the OM648 engine and using the Mobil 1 0w40 European Car Formula in your car..
The only issue I see with using the 229.51 oil in a gasser is the sulfur. 229.51 does not have the higher level of base additives to neutralize the acids that form from higher sulfur fuels. Gasoline has about 5-7 times the sulfur of diesel fuel, so if you are running 20K/2 year intervals on an oil change, the base additives may be depleted below a safe level.

Obviously because of the US Programing of the FSS+, you won't be running that long. I see absolutely no reason not to use 229.51 in a gasser as long as you stick with the programmed mileage limits of the US on a gasser.

M1 0w40 HT/HS = 3.7 @ 150 C
TBN = 11.3
Sulfated Ash = 1.2
Pour Point = -54C

M1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40
HT/HS = 3.9 @ 150 C
TBN = 10.7
Sulfated Ash = 1.0 (meets the SA levels for MB 228.31 HD specification and SCR/DPF systems)
Pour Point = -37C

In a gasser with all the waste heat they generate internally the M1 Turbo Diesel truck would offer better protection (HT/HS), but has a slightly lower TBN for acid. Unless you are running 20K oil changes and live in Barrow Alaska with constant cold starts the 0w40 has very little advantage aside from the 229.5 spec.

FWIW, the M1 Turbo Diesel truck does not have the MB229.5 approval again going back to the lower the TBN level.

Both are the best oils you can choose and would protect the motor in any extreme you could possibly throw at it.
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#13 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 02:27 PM
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DB, can u clear up this business with the fleece filter too..

Im pretty sure I remember hearing from you that CDIs do not run fleece.
(Which explains why all catalogs recommend standard element)

thanks
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#14 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by drivbiwire View Post
why hold on to an older specification that was intended for high sulfur fuels?
Because I buy what's available on area store shelves. As it is, I had to go 50 miles one way for the last 0W40 Euro Car Formula I bought. If anybody sold the 229.51 around here, I'd buy it. So since the owner's manual in my pro-ULSD car says 229.5 ECF is ok, that's what I buy. No way I'm paying hazardous freight charges having 229.51 shipped from beyond reasonable driving distance.

"Supersedes"
is your word though. If it was Mercedes' word, there'd have been a letter in the mail telling me to ignore my owners manual = and only use 229.51 spec engine oil. So far that letter hasn't arrived.

And for those that don't mind abiding what their owner manuals say, here's that pg12 bit about fleece filters that I mentioned originally. I've got one installed in the car, and I've got a new one on my parts shelf. It sure don't look like paper, so I'm taking it on faith that it's fleece.

//greg//
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#15 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by grohgreg View Post
Because I buy what's available on area store shelves. As it is, I had to go 50 miles one way for the last 0W40 Euro Car Formula I bought. If anybody sold the 229.51 around here, I'd buy it. So since the owner's manual in my pro-ULSD car says 229.5 ECF is ok, that's what I buy. No way I'm paying hazardous freight charges having 229.51 shipped from beyond reasonable driving distance.

"Supersedes"
is your word though. If it was Mercedes' word, there'd have been a letter in the mail telling me to ignore my owners manual = and only use 229.51 spec engine oil. So far that letter hasn't arrived.

And for those that don't mind abiding what their owner manuals say, here's that pg12 bit about fleece filters that I mentioned originally. I've got one installed in the car, and I've got a new one on my parts shelf. It sure don't look like paper, so I'm taking it on faith that it's fleece.

//greg//
Take the time to read the MB229.51 technical specification some time...BB00.40-P-0229-51A

When was the last time Mercedes took the time to mail you about a service bulletin???
When was the last time Mercedes Mailed you a revision to your owners manual???
When was the last time Mercedes sent you an advisory regarding a change in technical Specifications?

See my point?

Unless YOU are a dealership you're not going to hear BOO from Mercedes regarding any change in specification.

All the manuals in your car were out of date the second after they were printed...Sorry but thats just the fact of the technical side of the automotive industry. Don't hang your hat on some 5 year old publication found in your glove box, rest assured it's no longer up to date and except for how to work the electric door switches probably not even applicable! THis is the part where they want you to rely on an offical source ie your dealer to stay up to date on these changes, vs sending you a new owners manual every other week with the latest technical information.

And, did you really think MB was going to mail a letter to every owner with an out of date manual? In case nobody has told you this, they aren't going to send you a stamped letter to tell you that

MB229.51 was formulated at the beginning to SUPERCEDE all previous oil specifications for diesel engines. This allows dealerships and service centers to stock a single type of Diesel engine oil and reduce the risk of using an incorrect specification in a newer engine. You don't want a dealership using MB229.5 in a DPF/SCR engine!

The goal from the onset was to have a single blend oil that covers all previous MB diesel applications and MB Sheet specifications. The considerations when using these oils are:

"The temperature ranges in the viscosity classes must be observed"
"Use in combination with low-sulfur (S < 50 ppm) or sulfur-free (S < 10 ppm) fuel! If fuels with sulfur contents of S> 500 ppm Approval are being used, the oil change intervals must be reduced!"

The MB oil filters for diesels use a different media than what is used in gasoline engines. The media has a technical specification that requires it to be suitable for up to a 50,000km service life in cars, 150,000km's (not a typo) in HD applications, it is yellow in color to distinguish it from the fleece filters so as not to confuse the two. The primary difference is chemical resistance that leads to embrittlement of the element under high temperatures.

Diesel Engines and where MB229.51 approved by MB for use:

Retroactive applicability for 229.51 apply to engines with DPF filters:
OM 629, 639, 640, 646, 647, 648, 664, 665
OM 639 in model series 639 and 906, Other OM 6xx with DPF not listed above

Retroactive applicability for 229.51 applies to engines without DPF filters:
OM 660,OM 640, 642, 646 in model series 639 OM 646, 647, 648 OM 611, 612, 613, 628, 639, 668, 664, 665, Other OM 6xx not listed above.

Also 229.51 covers:
M 112, 113, 134, 135, M 266 Turbo, M 271,

Last edited by drivbiwire; 10-01-2010 at 06:29 PM.
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#16 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 08:48 PM
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Yet all the "superseded" rhetoric in the world can't make up for the fact that 229.51 spec oil simply ain't on the shelves around here. Get my point? That said, I've still got 9 qts of 0W40 ECF on the shelf. After the next oil change, perhaps the 5W40 ESP will have shown up in my area.

ExxonMobil sure is proud of that stuff though. I thought $7/qt for ECF was brazen. A quick Google product search shows this ESP stuff tickling $10/qt.

//greg//
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#17 (permalink) Old 10-01-2010, 10:25 PM
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I get it at my dealer for $4.75 a quart. I usually buy 5 gallons at a time.

I use the empty Urea jugs (2.5 gallons) to store the oil. These will not have any sulfur residue that could contaminate my oil supply on the two Bluetec's.
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#18 (permalink) Old 10-02-2010, 04:31 AM
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Well, you're clearly talking about bulk oil - and probably from a nearby dealership. Not only is my dealer a 150 mile round trip, they don't have 229.51 to sell from bulk anyway. Out here in small town America, our only choice for the "specialty" oils is full retail by the quart.

I observe a 5000 mile oil/filter change for my coupe, which could have been one way to use that 9 qts of 0W40 ECF. But unfortunately the venerable OM617A seems to be missing from your list, and it's probably not prudent to gamble on "other OM 6xx not listed above"

//greg//
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#19 (permalink) Old 10-02-2010, 04:49 AM
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I get the quarts and the bulk for the same price. I suspect if you work out a deal on oil with them, what you would save on shipping would pay for the drive to the dealer.

Your OM61A is covered under the 229.51 specification.

229.51 uses a far superior additive chemistry over the older oils hence lower engine wear, better soot suspension, and better cleansing during the first 1000-3000 miles of its use.

The last thing you want to do is use the 0w40 and change it every 5000 miles, you are running in a near continuous state of detergency and NEVER attaining additive stability in respect to placement. In fact you are doubling your engines wear changing every 5K vs running it every 10,000 or better yet 15,000 miles.

On those older motors they require the high HT/HS oils to protect the timing chains and sprockets, which is another reason to use the 5w40 229.51 and run it every 15K and avoid the excessive wear associated with short change intervals.

I know you aren't going to believe me so prove it to yourself how to lower your engines wear.

After you change the oil and filter, drive for about 20 miles and take an oil sample. Note the FE, AL, NI, PB

Take an oil sample at 1000 miles, Note the FE, AL, NI, PB, you will notice that they probably increased over your 20 mile sample by about 5-9 ppm on the FE when you subtract the first sample from the total.

At 5K take another sample, You will notice that the FE will have only increased by about 6-9 total ppm over the 1000 mile sample, in other words the engine stopped wearing after that 1000 mile sample...don't change it!

At 10K, take another sample, if the wear rate is still less than 5 ppm increase per 1000 miles the oil is still protecting the motor and you are STILL getting less than 1/3 of the wear you did when it was new!

At 15K take another sample, Still under 5 ppm per 1000 miles? Press on to 20K etc etc until the ACTUAL wear starts to increase (it will eventually) but at a VERY predictable rate and not all of a sudden.

On the older motors the soot will cause thickening, so in effect the oil itself becomes better at supporting higher loads ie less wear. The newer oils like 229.51 can suspend FAR more soot than did the older oil versions due to EGR, Retarded inection timing etc which your older motor did not have to deal with. Those older motors with the large sump volumes can run 20K plus on an oil change and return amaizingly low wear rates when using the newest oils specifications and their new generation additives and dispersants.

Last edited by drivbiwire; 10-02-2010 at 05:03 AM.
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#20 (permalink) Old 10-02-2010, 09:45 AM
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greg

if your interested i have a dealer you can use in maryland, he sells it for around 5 a quart and shipping fedex ground is easy and doesnt add much to each quarts price

i think 16 quarts was like 10 bucks shipping to me and I am furhter away from him then u are.. less than a buck a quart, quarts near me in the store is 6.75 b4 tax so @ 6 shipped no tax Its a good deal...
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