Oil spec issue?

[Pete '06 E320 CDI]

Hi there. MB recommends spec 229.50 or motor oil for 2005 and 2006 OM648 engines, 3.2 liter inline 6 (without diesel particulate filter). 229.50 oil is designated as an extended mileage oil with service up to 30,000 km (18,000 miles). The oil requirement for the same engine without the maintenance system is the 229.3 oil which is suitable up to 20,000 km (12,000 miles). As MB has to the best of my knowledge short circuited its maintenance system by requiring oil changes at 13,000 mile intervals, wouldn't it make more sense to use 229.3 oil in order to avoid dumping perfectly good long lasting oil at every oil change? I know about warranty issues but I don't understand why MB would insist on extended mileage oil if they don't recommend extended mileage between oil changes. Sounds like wasting money down the drain for nothing. Your thoughts are appreciated.

Pete
'06 E320 CDI

[jimbo1mcm]

I use 229.5 in both my 05 CDI's and only run them 5000 miles between changes plus filter. It is really "wasteful" but I feel it protects a couple of expensive investments which I plan on keeping for a very long time. I do the changes myself.

[keyhole]

From the official MB document..

"MB sheet 229.5 approved oils - MB Longlife Service Oils

For passenger cars with gas and diesel engines with extended drain intervals beyond 229.3 oils, to 30,000 km, min 1.8% fuel saving, first oils introduced summer 2002. ACEA A3 B4.

For gas engines of the M100 series, gas engines of the M200 series and diesel engines of the OM600 series (not models with Euro 4 diesel particle filters).
229.5 engine oils must be used with fleece oil filter designed for use with 229.5 engine oils."

Apart from the make-up of the oil, the requirement of the fleece filter seems to be the essential difference when using MB 229.5.

[Pete '06 E320 CDI]

I understand all of the written directives, but what I am questioning is the logic behind this. 229.3 oil is APPROVED for OM 648 engines for up to 12,000 miles between oil changes. Then WHY require 229.5 oil that is basically 229.3 oil with long wear additives which is good for at least up to 20,000 miles and beyond and throw it out at 13,000 miles. This just does not make sense.

The right answer in my opinion is to use 229.5 oil but to test it at at 7,500 miles, monitor its quality and take it to 20,000 or more if it is still good. That was the whole idea of going to long life synthetic oils, but something has definitely been lost in the translation. Changing your oil when it is still good does not do your car any good. That's the old Jiffy Lube mentality. Don't forget this is just a matter of "managing the lubricants" as per the requirements of the lubricant manufacturer and the engine manufacturer. The lubricant manufacturer is clear about what the lubricant can do. The engine manufacturer is coming up with different stories depending on which side of the Atlantic the engine is located. That's what I'm questioning.

Cheers

[drivbiwire]

Originally Posted by jimbo1mcm

I use 229.5 in both my 05 CDI's and only run them 5000 miles between changes plus filter. It is really "wasteful" but I feel it protects a couple of expensive investments which I plan on keeping for a very long time. I do the changes myself.

You feel? Is that a scientific term? In the world of engineering it's called stupidity.

Not to mention you are GREATLY increasing your engine wear!

What? you thought it would reduce wear? Did you not think about the chemical processes going on with engine oils in respect to detergents, high pressure additives, Ph stability, additive placement? Instead you choose to flush the oil just as the additives FINALLY stablized only to force the process to start all over again? What did you expect lower engine wear?

For starters, you are increasing the detergency cycles the engine sees and increasing the stabilization periods that occur in the 1st 1000 miles of the long drain oils use.

Wear on these types of oil is HIGHEST IN THE 1ST 1000 MILES! Changing oil early is INCREASING THE TOTAL WEAR IN YOUR ENGINE!

Once that first 1000 miles is over the oil additives are able to adhere to the high pressure regions in the motor and reduce the wear as they set up for the 13,000+ mile oil change interval. These additives require heat, pressure and time to fully place in those parts of the motor that rely on them to prevent wear.

If you feel some need to do something every 5000 miles take an oil sample!

If you took an oil sample on these engines and saw how good the oil is doing you would see first hand how foolish it is changing the oil at only 5000 miles.

FACT you would have LOWER wear changing the oil every 15,000 miles than if your were to change it every 5,0000 miles...

I'm not gonna beat this dead horse but every few months people like you come along thinking this "3000 mile oil change mentaility" is of some benefit to an engine. If you actually knew anything about engines much less tribilology you would see just how stupid this mind set is!

If you want to take an emotional approach, read your owners manual and maintenance manual, it was written by engineers who may actually know something about your car that did not base the recomendations on "emotion". If the engineers had their way your engine would be sealed shut and the hood chained close to keep people like you from monkeying around with them!

Why MB229.5 in the US?

Mercedes already got burned by oil change intervals and dealers failing to use properly rated oils for FSS and FSS+ systems. You still have people that think Mobil 1 5w30 can be used in a Mercedes where in fact it does not meet ANY MB CERTIFICATION much less those of Briggs and Stratton...but it does meet that of a Chevy (What does that tell you). Too many people fail at reading and the ability to recogize that oils need to meet some very specific specifications and certifications.

Mobil 1 5w30 ESP is a COMPLETELY different oil from Mobil 1 5w30, Why? Simple one is certified under MB229.51 where the other cannot be used in any MB engine every made due to completely different additive packages and changes to the base stock oil used.

As somebody already pointed out MB228.31 is similar to MB229.51, the difference is that one is a heavy duty engine oil the other is an extended drain oil for light duty applications. A more simple way to put it is that the 228.XX is formulated to handle more combustion by-products by virtue of engine running under higher sustained loads. 229.XX is formulated for engine with lower average fuel burn but have other certain differences which the larger displacement heavy duty engines don't see (more frequent cold starts, shorter trips, lighter engine loads etc).

Why 10K and 13K between changes instead of 19K? For the most part MBUSA and dealers would scream if owners could go that long. Secondly 10-13K between changes while retaining the FSS+ ability to increase the service interval with credit given for optimal driving conditions strikes somewhat of a balance between the two camps but that initial bias does reduce the possibility of getting anywhere near 19K on any oil change.

If you take an oil sample at 13K you will find that the oil is perfectly suitable for continued use. Mercedes because of the large sump volumes they use are especially able to produce very low wear rates thanks to dilution.

[Pete '06 E320 CDI]

Ok. Let's keep this civil, please. If someone wants to change his oil every day, that's his own choice. It may not be a good idea but we're in a free country after all. I'm leaning towards longer oil changes with 229.5 oil. After all why pay for extended life oil if you're not using the benefits? MB has different rules for the same engine depending if you're in the US where it's in the psyche to change the oil often or in Europe where operational costs are more important. This is a case where marketing is winning over engineering and the end result is that a lot of perfectly good oil is discarded for nothing. When synthetics started to penetrate the market the idea was that they would cost less per mile than regular oil. Now with the oil change requirements of the manufacturers the cost is twice as much. I'm sure the cabbies in Europe with 400 to 500 km on their 648's would agree that synthetic with the right change intervals is the way to go.

[jerk_chicken]

I'm sure the cabbies in Europe with 400 to 500 km on their 648's would agree that synthetic with the right change intervals is the way to go.

Out here, while "conventional" is available, it is nowhere near as widely available as synthetic and synthetic blends. Conventional is close to non-existent compared to synthetic. Could be partly due to the unitization of the taxation, but I agree about operational costs being a priority here. Anything petroleum based is just so expensive that no one would be able to afford the oil changes at that rate. Perhaps that's what's driving things along, in terms of extra life oils. For some cars, just the oil can cost a dealer's visit, using those 229.5 oils. If I were to use that, it would cost me roughly €180-200 just for the oil, though I would only use about 80% of the containers at the fill.

[Pete '06 E320 CDI]

I agree. But you know, here in the US large diesel manufacturers (Caterpillar, etc. ) rely on engine oil analysis for oil change intervals for their equipment, so this is nothing new. The only problem is that the car industry takes advantage of this "old way of thinking" and shorts circuits the benefits of long life oils. 229.5 oil could potentially stay in your engine for very long intervals 40,000 + km with filter changes every 20,000 km. All you need to do is perform an engine oil analysis to pinpoint problems and you should be ok. In this manner the cost per mile for lubricants would become competitive with conventional oils. That was the whole idea from the beginning but the idea somewhat got forgotten and lubrication costs have skyrocketed for nothing.

That's why I'm wondering if 229.3 oil with 12,000 mile (20,000 KM) oil change would still meet the requirements of MB for engine warranty issues.

[jerk_chicken]

I agree about the oil analysis. I don't know if the later FSS systems are good stand ins for such a thing, or at least somewhat reliable to get a trend from.

The only thing I am weary about is having had taken engines apart in the past, that had these extended intervals (granted on older versions of oils), and the ones that go to 15k miles don't really look pretty inside. Ones with less than 10-12k, depending on usage, look pretty damn good inside. True, that is one aspect, but I'm still a bit part of the old thinking that 40k km isn't feasible because oil hasn't come that far, but still, something like 30k km could be feasible in some applications. Depends on how big the oil capacity is, absolutely, and the ability of the engine to stabilize the oil temperatures and prevent overheating, such as oil cooling, or oil pans that are designed for a specific cooling function, not only catching oil.

[jimbo1mcm]

I thoroughly enjoyed your hysterical analysis( non- professional) of my 5000 mile oil changes. My 83 240 D, now has 326,000 miles on the original engine. I enjoy being " stupid"