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Is it the end?

1K views 22 replies 6 participants last post by  Inny6 
#1 ·
I have a 97 E320 104 Inline 6 and around 8 months ago had to have the dreaded head gasket replacement kit and kaboodle done at the dealership.
My car has 178,000 on the clock.
One owner before me and with service history and i have always been fanatical with maintenance as i love this car.
I thought an oil change would be mandatory with this repair as i can also see the oil filter has been itemised on my receipt.
( had an oil filter changed before this 12 months previously).
About 2 months after new gasket car starts leaking oil again, i take it back to the dealer.
They confirm the gasket was leaking and guarantee the new leak is fixed.
6 months on i see a new very slight oil patch under the car, i am over it.
Off to the dealer again, this time they physically look underneath and reckon it is nothing.
In the meantime I am driving around for the next few months , no warnings on the dash , keeping an eye on oil levels etc, then driving along one day on a straight stretch doing 60km i hear a slight rumble in the engine like something loose yet i thought maybe some stones had hit underneath instead.
Hear it again not until at least 3 weeks later. O.K.
Noticed when the car is totally warmed up it is random yet now on start up i have this strange flapping noise and cannot pinpoint where it is coming from.
Everyday it is like a dull bap,bap,bap like a flat tire sound and now every red light it is starting to hesitate when i need to put my foot down. It has never stalled.
It is sluggish and i call the dealer and the morning i take it up to have it diagnosed.
The tech was in the car with me when he heard the worrisome sounds.
It was hard to tell at this point.
2 weeks later we have a diagnosis, i need a new steering pump.
I said really?, "It was leaking alot of pump fluid", oh, i thought the steering was fine no whining symptoms or signs yet i am not the expert here and said go ahead. There had been no signs of pump fluid that we could previously see.
Now they were having trouble finding the part/kit and i had been without a car for nearly 3 months for the gasket and not going thru this again, wanted a second opinion.
My indi mech used to work for Mercedes and I told him the diagnosis.
He went over it and couldn't find anything wrong with the steering checked for leaks No leaks but heard the dull tapping from inside the car, BTW Wasn't the pump leaking?:confused:
Checked oil again it was very sludgy all of a sudden and just under .
Now there is a constant ticking under the hood and can hear that slight rumble again right at the front where the belt is PLUS the bap.bap.bap.bap.
Valve train fine, but haven't checked the fuel pump yet but can now smell a strong smell of fuel on start up. Tapping can be heard in park and when into gear goes faster.
We fill it with oil and give it a new oil filter first.
Still flapping yet car has slightly improved on performance and torque is still excellent.
Can feel vibration a bit thru the wheel and under the acceleration pedal feels like i can feel the road but has onl had rotors and disks new break pads done 12 months ago.
Could be vacuum leak yet seems fine but i have heard this water like swish on the passenger side sometimes and it hasn't been raining.
So sorry for the encyclopedia but could this all lead to the power steering pump?
Seems like to me the engine has damage from obviously great lack of oil , i am mortified yet car was great when the gasket was leaking a little before it was done, i wish i hadn't had it done.
My mech was worried and to get to the source of elimination obviously a strip down to find out exactly where we are headed here, even then he thinks that maybe it is time to give her up?!:crying I am a chick BTW.
I would appreciate your expertise and honest opinions as to WTF has gone on here , i look after my cars our fam all have these models and now of gasket issues yet MB told me it would give the car new life instead it seems the opposite.:(
Thanks guys
Inny 6
 
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#2 ·
The tapping sound could be the serpentine belt. I say this because you said you hear it when the car is just sitting and when you start driving it gets louder right? I would start the car and open the hood and get close to the belt and listen to see if that's where the sound is coming from. It's also possible that the belt is rubbing on something. So it's a good idea to check.

I don't think your power steering pump needs to be replaced. If it was leaking a lot of fluid, the pump would be very loud and the steering wheel would get very heavy. Just open the cap on the steering pump and check the fluid yourself.

The hesitation sounds like a possible vacuum leak.. Maybe the dealer didn't put the vacuum hoses on correctly or maybe they are just brittle and they need to be replaced. Have your indy mechanic inspect all vacuum hoses. The hesitation could also be from a failing maf sensor. But it's hard to know without getting any info from the ecu.

Don't be discouraged. Sometimes cars are great for months at a time and then all of a sudden a few problems pop up at the same time especially on older cars. I don't know if you should just give up on the car, that's up to you and how much money and time your willing to spend.
 
#3 ·
Same Car, Same Team

I bought my 97 E320 with 179K 8 years ago. It now has 246K. There is probably something stuck in the path of the engine fan like a broken shroud or dead cat. That engine is bullet proof and I wouldn't think you'd be dealing with catastrophic engine failure with that low of miles and a new head gasket. Good Luck.
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/images/BenzWorld2/smilies/tango_face_glasses.png
 
#4 ·
Thank you guys for your positive advice i feel alot better.
I actually took it out today and apart from a slight vibration now the engine sounded just like it used to, no tapping, hesitating , no ticks could not believe it!
Then , I thought to myself i will take it out again and fill the tank up to the top.
Ecstatic get back in the car and start the engine.:
Straight away the that dull flapping came back and and right on cue at the next set of lights so did the hesitation to take off.
It has got be a fuel problem maybe the pump but am getting it looked at tomorrow at least these 2 sounds seem to be pointing to one cause (i hope).
Funny thing i thought i may mention i always use the best petrol on the market here and about 3 months ago moved house and had to change brands of petrol as i am travelling in the opposite direction kinda weird maybe just a coincidence.
Thanks again and will let you know how i went !
 
#5 ·
Thanks for the advice , as i am from Oz there are few enthusiasts here that appreciate the more mature MB's with a ride and an engine that cannot be compared.
Unfortunately it is also a bit of a problem here for a mech to be experienced enough to work on these cars anymore and we always get told the same thing over, "the car's too old ", time to upgrade!".
i would rather "upgrade" to an earlier model benz than purchase a new one any day ,mostly new MB's around here and apart from the new AMG's many of them are sort of becoming like flies.
 
#10 ·
Still Waiting....

Hi guys just an update, well not really.
No one could diagnose the situation just yet, so it is going back to our Service centre (not the dealership this time), on Monday.
the tapping sounds like it is coming from the rear am wondering if it is the exhaust?
Would this give the car poor acceleration such as hesitating on take off?
Thanks so much in advance
Inny6
 
#11 ·
Check fuel regulator, if it's bad it will leak fuel into intake manifold.

Check all vacuum lines, there are a total of 6, three small ones and three big ones.

The big ones are brake booster, which we can rule out since you don't mention any braking issues. The other two are under the intake manifold, right next to throttle body. They get brittle and are prone to cracking.

The other three vacuum lines are from fuel regulator, line to solenoid in front of timing cover, and yet another line from that to secondary air.

Any of those being cracked will cause the hesitation. The noise you hear could be from the idle pulley, there's two. They're cheap, can be replaced.
 
#12 ·
Hi Guys

Sorry for the late reply, just got the car back late yesterday.
As for the bone dry engine that has possible damage thanks to not fixing previous leaks at all post head gasket rebuild after just 2 months.
It took almost 2 weeks for the engine to throw us a code or 2 and yesterday it gave out 2 camshaft error codes which i will post soon as i have the exact code numbers from the report.

Something to add that a few days ago apart from the constant flapping noise the engine was knocking and and making bubbling sounds that i could feel after the engine was off thru the air intake above the valve cover.

The leak as we found looks to be coming from the the top right of the valve cover and i have found out something sickening that when the HG was done the oil filter was not replaced , my indie mech took out the same one he put in just before it was done.
Obviously no fresh oil at all nothing but contamination, stress, worry, cabin fever and disbelief.

Also what is this powder coating yellowish white all around the hoses and the valve cover?

It is still under warranty thank goodness and they're very willing to rectify the outcome which gives some comfort yet an engine rebuild ?
Would this be just saving a sinking ship now?
I am having a meeting with yours truly on Monday morning.....
will keep you posted.

Yours Inny6
 
#13 ·
Well, I hope whoever did the headgasket put the timing chain back on correctly.... the good news is that our engine can run with the timing off. The bad news is that our engine can run with the timing off, so if you're not confident that the previous guy did the job right, I'd ask for a second opinion, or at the very least ask them to recheck the timing.

Barring that, I'd ask them to at the very least recheck everything, including the intake flap resonance, which is attached to the intake manifold, right next to throttle body. The flapping noise could be from that?

And of course, they need to put everything back in correctly. When I did the headgasket on my 97 E320, I found out that the car was very hard to start, and it wouldn't hold an idle at all. Turns out that one of the intake tube under the intake manifold was kinked just enough that it allowed air in. The funny thing was, once the car was started and it warmed up enough, it would drive perfectly, no issues at all....vacuum leak and all.

When I fixed the vacuum leak, bam, the car started at the first crank.

I don't know why that indy didn't change the oil after a headgasket job, it's a requirement.

About powder coat yellow white....I'm not sure I follow. Can you snap a pic or two?
 
#14 ·
Thanks again, the info has been really great , i print it off and stick it in my pocket just in case i get any cheek off the mechs.
It was great to see their face when i brought the check list you guys did for me!
Not so great was the truth showing in their face pretending to know what i was talking about....!
I will wait till it is light and take some pics in the morning, bedtime here in Oz nightie nite!
 
#16 ·
Hi guys here are some pics of the white powder coat and yellowish gunk?
I also had a look at the hoses again and found a slight burn mark on hose above the belt, looks like it may have been in contact with it not long ago.
When u told me Deplore about the kink you had in a hose yesterday i found this kink in the wires next to the water pump although probably nothing to worry about?
i meant to add yesterday Deplore that it was actually the indie mech that found the oil filter that he put in before the head gasket was done which i meant to say that the oil was not done at the time of gasket rebuild and basically the lifters would of sat in old oil. The rebuild was done by......which i can tell you after tomorrow after a meeting to rectify all of the sudden death issues.

Can i bother you for your expertise in why the camshaft would fail just after a rebuilt gasket ? This whole area looks as if it has been leaking oil before the gasket issue and the wrong leaks if any at all had been sealed which has left the same area at the top of the engine on the right next to the cylinder head leaking?
This car never overheated ,blew smoke, etc.
I will report back tomorrow and see exactly what can be done...... Tattoo Shoulder Neck Font Joint


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#17 ·
The pitting in the second picture might be caused by using too harsh a degreaser for the aluminum, magnesium or whatever that part's made of.

The hose in the third picture might be installed backwards but I think there's a flare on one end making it difficult to get wrong.

Sixto
83 300SD can be yours
98 E320 wagon
 
#18 ·
Thanks Sixto i would not be surprised if the whole was installed backwards at this point!
The pic with coolant cap off has these like tiny plastic particles under the cap i remember reading about something like this before.
I never had any oil in the coolant either, ever.
 
#19 · (Edited)
The particles in the coolant reservoir don't worry me. They're likely old residue or dried out coolant. Now if there were particles IN the coolant, that's something that needs to be worried.

Where is the first picture taken? I'm having a hard time following the location of the picture.

The coolant hose burn damage doesn't look too bad, it looks like the residue from the shop rag and the dried oil.

Yes, the camshaft tends to leak around the solenoid gasket, it's another common problem in our engines, but it's usually such a slow leak that most people ignore it (me included). It's not worth the time and money and effort to change the gasket for a leak that's comparable to a drop or two every couple months.



This one is from my car. You can see the oil seep from the camshaft solenoid. It's so very common.



But the headgasket on this car is known to go bad, and when it goes bad it leaks oil like a sieve.

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w210-e-class/2798690-1997-mb-e320-build-log.html

This is my thread. Look at post #13, second picture.



That corner where the oil has dried out, that's where the oil likes to leak out when the headgasket fails. And it's a pretty rapid leak, mine was so bad that I had to fill up a quart or two every couple hundred miles. I left oil puddles everywhere.

if you had that, then it was a bad headgasket. However, you do need to put everything on correctly, including the timing. Post #11 shows how I verified the timing was in spec before I took off the chain, and that's how I verified the timing was in spec after I put the chain back in. Like I said, if the timing is off, it can cause odd issues....and fortunately/unfortunately our car can still run decently with it.




Now, back to camshaft sensor failure. if the shop isn't a shop that specializes in MB, or the technician who did the job was not familiar with our engine (just to point out how old our engines are: the last year of the inline six in E class was in 1997, and the last year inline six in S and SL was in 1999), then the inexperienced tech would've taken off the camshaft solenoid (the part that's leaking) to see if he could take off the timing cover. And if he incorrectly puts it back on, it can damage the cam sensor. I don't know if you know this, but the cam sensor is literally 1 inch or two away from the camshaft solenoid actuator. You can even see the plug for it sticking out in my first picture.

Of course there is the possibility that the camshaft sensor itself may have gone kaput. The car is 20 years old, after all. Even sensors go bad.
 
#20 ·
Thanks Deplore, this is really amazing stuff! I really appreciate this and have printed out the thread you gave me, i can really see now even for a chick that this whole operation reeks of inexperience, armed and ready i sort it out today and let you know what happens.
P.S No wonder my front engine cover broke they would have bashed it off. Morons.
 
#21 ·
Why An Oil Filter And New Oil Needs To Be Done During A Head Gasket Replacement...

Hi Guys,

As we now know that the oil filter was not changed at the time of the my E320's Head Gasket Rebuild as found by my trusty mechanic (not from the dealership) who was mortified that it was in fact his oil filter he had installed just 10 months before I took it to the dealership to have the Head Gasket Rebuild done in December 2015.

Yes that long ago, and as my car had been dying a slow death through starvation of oil over the time since the operation had been done at this dealership they told me that the oil filter does not need to be replaced during the process by their technicians even when I told them that the oil filter we found in June this year that resembled a tube of tar had not been changed , I wonder what else they thought did not need to be done during my car's new heart and lungs surgery.

To add fuel to the fire the gasket leak was never fixed and whatever oil was left in the engine at the time probably kept draining thru here anyway till it was bone dry, I always check the oil and what was left wasn't going anywhere around the engine but sitting in the middle causing great lack of oil pressure and in the end a fried engine.

Please I would appreciate feedback as to why you need to change an oil filter during a routine Head Gasket Rebuild?
Thanks everyone
devastated.....:frown
 
#22 ·
That's really unfortunate, the dealership who did the job should be held accountable.

You always change the oil and oil filter doing headgasket, primarily because when you remove the head, the coolant, debris and other whatsnot get into the oil channels along the engine block. You don't want coolant in your oil, right? Well, they get mixed during this process when the head is removed.

Thats why after a head gasket, I always drain the oil and pour fresh oil plus filter. It costs me $50 in materials, which is cheap insurance for a $1-2k engine. Even if it wasn't necessary, the peace of mind is worth it.
 
#23 ·
Thanks Deplore, so upsetting, had it out with Dealership today and of course are digging their heals in that it is a leak from somewhere else that is causing the issue, yeah right.
I have got to see to see this thru for my E320.
The dealership is now given a chance to diagnose the leak just so they can say it will come from somewhere else no doubt.
But the oil filter is in the vault I told them and so was brushed aside.
the car is picked up on Monday for the final check up so will be interesting what they can come up with....I shall report back and let you know.
Thank you!
Inny6
 
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