Mercedes-Benz Forum banner

e430 uneven tire wear

5K views 30 replies 10 participants last post by  raywbo 
#1 ·
Hello, I have a '99 E430 sport, I found that I'm experiencing uneven tire wear. the insides of the tire tread is basically gone. The tires are less than a year old. I did replace my tie rod ends, and lower front ball joints before I got the new tires. Could toe in or toe out cause the inner tires to wear so much? From what I've read, the camber cannot be adjusted without getting aftermarket bolts. I do notice that there is a lot of negative camber. Could it be caused by worn out springs?
 
#3 ·
Uneven tire wear

Thanks,

No I didn't get one done. I'm kind of a do it yourself-er, but I realize I don't have the proper equipment to do it correctly. After replacing the ball joints and tie rod ends, i told myself that I'd get an alignment if the car didn't drive correctly, but it really seemed fine. No vibration, wheel centered, etc. It does have a tendency to pull right lately. This morning I "measured" the camber using a level, and both sides are showing about 22 mm of negative camber (tops of the tires tilt in 22 mm relative to the bottoms. Putting this in autocad, it seems that this tilt is about 2.5 degrees. From what I see on line, it should be less than 1 degree. It also seems that in order to adjust camber, you need aftermarket bolts (no factory adjustment option). I plan to do the string test to get a seat of the pants toe in (out) measurement and see if there is an obvious problem there.
 
#10 ·
there is a part of me still trying to wrap my head around the fact that tie rod end and ball
joints replacement would be so extreme that it would push the alignment outside the
specs window that factory settings won't allow.

you've not indicated that any suspension mods were done or some faddish, aftermarket
wheels/tires were installed.

so I'm left with the impression that on an otherwise stock vehicle other than the tie rod
and ball joints, those were enough to skew your alignment beyond factory adjustability.
so that's why i find this a little puzzling.
 
#11 ·
Thanks for all the input.

The car is completely stock, the tie rod ends and ball joints were just stock parts. This model doesn't have struts, but separate springs and shocks. I did replace the shocks probably 5 years ago, but they don't affect the ride height since the springs are separate. but in any case, the springs could be wearing out, and causing the car to ride lower making the wheels have negative camber. I did do the string check, and it does seem that my front wheels toe out a little, the right one about 3/16 of an inch, and the left about 1/8 measured at the outer rim. that equates to about 1 degree. also might explain why it pulls right. The negative camber seems to be the real issue. you can just see it with the naked eye. it may be the springs. I can get the springs and the spring puller for about $200, or I suppose I could get camber bolts and do that. Camber bolts would be cheaper and not require a special tool (also safer).
 
#15 · (Edited)
I did do the string check, and it does seem that my front wheels toe out a little, the right one about 3/16 (0.1875") of an inch, and the left about 1/8 (0.125") measured at the outer rim.
The old bias ply tires usually ran with some toe but radials usually use zero toe. A small amount of toe out will wear tires much more than the kind of camber you measured.
Its interesting to hear that toe out will cause the tire wear I'm experiencing. Since toe is quite easy to adjust, I'll probably give it an initial adjustment per my measurements, and see if the right pull subsides. If I continue to experience issues, I could take it in and get it aligned.
Don't know if this will relate to your problem, but my Honda Accord was off spec by only -0.06" on the left and -0.05" on the right to cause significant wear on the inside of the tires.

Spec range was supposed to be -.04" to +.04", measurement before alignment to 0 toe was -0.1" on left and -0.09" on the right.

My hat off to you sir if you can get it in spec without a laser sight.
 
#12 ·
The string approach will only work if the tire to tire width is the same in the rear as in the front. I'm not sure about your car. Old time alignment folks would spin both tires and mark around them on the tread by holding a scribe against the spinning tread. They would then use an adjustable bar to measure from line to line behind the front wheels. They would then move the bar ahead of the wheels and make sure that the distance between the marks is the same, for zero toe. The old bias ply tires usually ran with some toe but radials usually use zero toe. A small amount of toe out will wear tires much more than the kind of camber you measured.
 
#13 ·
Just get a wheel alignment at the Mercedes dealer or a shop that actually specializes in wheel alignments for German cars. Why waste money trying fix something that's not broken? There's no guarantee that the springs are bad. Plus you will end up with a tool that you most likely won't use again for a very long time, if at all. Do the easy things first.
 
#14 ·
Thanks again,

Its interesting to hear that toe out will cause the tire wear I'm experiencing. Since toe is quite easy to adjust, I'll probably give it an initial adjustment per my measurements, and see if the right pull subsides. If I continue to experience issues, I could take it in and get it aligned.

I actually discovered the tire wear while replacing the motor mounts (huge difference) and the spark plugs.
 
#16 ·
The alignment specs are not super easy to find, but I did come up with one posted on this forum. it says the toe spec is between 0.00 and 0.10 for each wheel with a total max of 0.20. 0.1 inches is almost an 1/8 of an inch, so certainly measurable. Since my wheels toe out, I'll bring them back to parallel with the rears, and maybe a touch more.

I've never owned a new car, and do basically all my own maintenance work. I've never really had a serious alignment issue with a car, so this has been a learning experience. I guess that's what these forums are for.
 
#17 ·
Go to a Goodyear shop and get the alignment checked for free. Tell them in advance that you only want it checked and will then decide how to proceed. They will perform the check and print out the results for you. Then (esp. in your case), they will urge you to have the alignment fixed immediately. But you can decline politely and walk away without paying anything.

If you only need to correct toe, you can do it yourself using the initial values from said alignment check. But you need to make careful measurements and calculations as for how much a certain turn of the tie rod will change the angle.

If you replaced the tie-rod ends then you certainly want to check and adjust the alignment afterwards.

In addition, worn front lower control arm bushings lead to increased inner tire wear just as you describe it. So do check these bushings as well.
 
#18 ·
Thanks,

I may do that. Last night, I adjusted the toe on my car. I re-took the measurements I had done the day before, and they agreed. Once I had made the adjustments, I rechecked the alignment, and it seems to be pretty good. On the test drive, the car is much more stable, and no longer pulls right like it did. I also rotated the rear tires to the front, so I have a baseline for future wear patterns. I will keep an eye on it weekly now that I know what to look for. I did not check the lower control arm bushings, but I will give them a look. My guess is though that this all started with replacing the tie rod ends, and not checking the toe afterward. Like I said in an earlier post, I've never really delved into alignment issues since I've never really had one that I know of. I will say thought that all the work I've done in the past year or so has been worth it, the car drives like new. I've done the lower ball joints, tie rod ends, sway bar bushings, motor mounts, spark plugs, belt tensioner, serpentine belt, transmission fluid change (purchased dipstick), new rear window regulators, sorted out bulb warning messages, new tires about a year ago, and now an alignment. all of this of course with regular oil changes.
 
#19 ·
I've done the lower ball joints, tie rod ends, sway bar bushings, motor mounts, spark plugs, belt tensioner, serpentine belt, transmission fluid change (purchased dipstick), new rear window regulators, sorted out bulb warning messages, new tires about a year ago, and now an alignment. all of this of course with regular oil changes.
Sounds like you're doing a lot to keep your ride in shape and running :thumbsup:

You might want to consider changing differential fluid (make sure vent is not clogged) and fuel filter if you haven't done so yet.............often neglected.
 
#20 ·
Thanks for the heads up on the fuel filter. I probably check it and the differential fluid soon. The remaining big projects are the AC compressor, and some bodywork. The AC hasn't worked for about 6 years, and I've been debating if I should fix it or not. From research I've done on it, it seems to be the compressor. The evaporator drain line is clean, hopefully indicating its not leaking. These days, compressor/dryer kits for my car can be had for under $250, so I may tackle it. There's a great write up on it in this forum.
 
#21 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hello there....fast tire wear is a bummer...and $$$

Hey Daveoff:

Here is a video link of a good inspection routine for the E class, w210 cars for the front suspension. I just used it to see if my lower control arms had worn bushings:



What I found suggested very little wear - none on the Driver side.

On the Passenger side very little, nothing to worry about for another 40k miles I think.

This is on our 2000 e320 wagon (RWD - not 4matic).

Another thought for you:

How are the front shocks ?

If they're worn or blown out, that can add to the fast wear patterns on tires.

I just did our front's shocks on this wagon.

The SACHS ones were 12 years old & 90k miles (estimated) and mostly gone.

What I find funny is how they slowly go bad & you don't even realize how bad they have actually become.

So, I went with the KYB Gas-A-Just KG 4727's and they seem superb.

Fyi, We have had this car for 2.5 years, but have added about 60k miles in that time.

It now handles about like it did when we first purchased it. Nice change - could only help the tire wear issues.

Our worst problem, though, was super fast rear tire wear. Again, it wasn't bad first 20k miles of our use, but got worse and of late, very bad.

With the worn front shocks & these going bad, I was eating a set of tires in 10k miles, literally the inner edges worn out in 5k miles on the rear, rotate to front & all trashed in 10k miles !

I was searched every thread on tire wear w210 here & elsewhere for answers.

The main thing I discovered was:

There is an 'outer lower control arm / wheel carrier knuckle joint' that can go bad, grease seals pop & joint gets dirt & wears out quickly.

This little guy is hidden inside the rear lower control arm, and not a 'normal' suspension wear item.

Unless, it's a Mercedes. Nearly all of them have these hidden 'joints'.

The tutorial threads I located that showed the R & I procedure were for an early sedan w124 chassis and a '98 S500 !

But, same part & nearly rear suspension layout in each case.

Anyhow we just did both of the rears.

Here's the procedure:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w210-e-class/1602887-diy-r-r-outer-bushing-rear-3.html#post4839497

Part Pictures, see google images here:

R & R rear lower outer control arm bushing w210

Car seems to track much better now, funny rear inner tire edge wear should disappear - or so the other threads that showed me this 'hidden suspension' breakdown have suggested.

I'll keep an eagle eye on the treadwear but it should be much improved with these two upgrades.

Hope this helps you in some fashion --

David in East Texas
 
#22 ·
Thanks for the detailed info. I did replace the shocks, but it was about 5 or 6 years ago. I also did the lower front ball joints recently, which needed it. I'm guessing that's what you're referring to when you say outer lower wheel carrier knuckle joint. The video is good, I've seen a few of his free videos on the w210, and its really what got me going on doing the maintenance/inspections I've done recently. I will now check out the lower control arm bushings as well. My guess is they won't be good given all the other stuff that has worn out, but we'll see.
 
#23 ·
Back to you Daveoff.....

No problem. On the procedure I mentioned, it's actually on the rear of the w210. It's on a ton of other MB's models too, like S class, C class, the earlier w124 (like pre 97 E class cars & wagons).

Some call it a "lower rear control arm to hub carrier knuckle joint".

It's pressed into the cast hub / wheel carrier, then the control arm is raised up over this portion, then the large attaching 22mm bolt goes thru.

It's an articulated metal joint that has a small range of motion but is lubricated and covered with a grease boot. In time the boots rupture, lube is lost & dirt invades & joint wears out, allowing for funny movement of the LCA & Wheel hub assembly.

Accelerated rear inner edge tire wear is the major symptom.

The cure is to disasemble this area, press out the worn part, then press in a new one.

The parts are only $15-30, one each side.

But the tool is more, $130 I paid for mine.

But I was wearing out a set of rear tires every 5k miles so you can see the math favors fixing this issue for good !

Here is the link I basically did all of this:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w210-e-class/1602887-diy-r-r-outer-bushing-rear-3.html#post4839497

I would only add this: using the ZDMAK tool,

1) The new 'knuckle joint' may be pressed in from the front of the car.
(The tool fits far better in this position, at least on the w210, than trying to pull the part in from the rear.)

2) 22mm Bolt can insert from the rear, and the nut attach on the front side.

Both of these points are due to the shape of the Hub carrier casting shape & the lack of available space at the front side of hub carrier.

Hope that clears things up.

I did that inspection & found some Passenger side LCA bushing wear.

Pretty sure it's going to be replaced. I'm now investigating if the upper control arm / upper ball joint should be replaced as well & how to do it.

Here's some entertaining viewing on doing the LCA R & R:



Hope this helps some.....Cheers - David
 
#24 ·
Last night I jacked up the front end and checked the play in the lower control arm bushings. they seem to be pretty tight. I also jacked up the rear and scoped out where the fuel filter is, and looked at the differential. I also checked for play in the rear suspension, again pretty tight. So it looks like in the next few weeks I'll change the fuel filter, and diff fluid, and keep an eye out for tire wear. then its on to the AC compressor, and some bodywork. The car has 215,000 on it, (I bought it in '03 with 70,000) and I've never changed the diff fluid or the fuel filter.
 
#25 ·
Check your lower ball joints.. weak item on these cars. You really need a use a pry bar with good leverage for both up and down and side to side. On the control arm, it's typically the front one that goes first. I did my control arm bushings months back when I was doing some other work as I had things apart. They were not shot, but were showing there age and since I keep my cars forever, didn't want to address them down the road and I had things apart anyway. At the time I checked all joints and bushings, which seemed OK. I get an alignment and notice some outside edge tire wear. I check everything again and it seems fine with the 3 and 9 and 12 and 6 o'clock test. I then checked the lower ball joints - no side to side but 4-5mm of up and down play. I missed it and the alignment shop missed it!
 
#26 ·
Thanks,

I did just recently change the lower front ball joints and the tie rod ends. both needed it. It's what really got me into the uneven tire wear. I neglected to align the front end after doing the tie rod ends. I did just recently align it, and its much better now. During this thread, I've learned a lot about the front and rear suspension and alignment. I will be changing the fuel filter and the differential fluid soon, I have the fluid and the filter. This is a list of what I've done, most of it within the last year:

Tie rod ends
Lower front ball joints
New tires
New sway bar bushings
New shocks (5 years ago)
Performed alignment
Changed transmission fluid
New transmission electrical plug
New motor mounts
New spark plugs
New belt tensioner (old one failed catastrophically while idling in the driveway, lucky me)
New Idler pulley (might as well if you're doing the tensioner)
New serpentine belt
New cabin air filter
New engine air filter
New windshield wiper
New rear window regulators (both failed about 5 years ago, removed old regulators and held windows up with internal pieces of wood. plugging motors back in fixed weird electrical issues)
Found and fixed all the "lamp defective" warnings
Checked OBD2 codes (none found)
Inspected front control arm bushings (seem OK)
Inspected rear suspension (seems OK)
Inspected brake linings all around (have life left)
Inspected Engine oil level (Good, will change in about 3000 more miles)
Inspected transmission fluid level (Good, got aftermarket dip stick)
Inspected drive shaft flex disks (both look good)

Still on the to do list:

Fuel Filter
Differential Fluid change
A/C compressor (have checked evap drain line and its clean, hopefully indicating its not a leak in the evap)
Body work, some areas of rust.
Keep and eye out for uneven tire wear.

Any suggestions for any other things that go bad on this model? (1999 E430 Sport)
 
#27 ·
Good to learn all these suspension details, guys...

I sure learn a lot around here.

I failed to pry up or across on the lower ball joint. I will be sure to do that soon.

They could very well be worn out.

I did put the pry bar between the frame & control arm bushings. What I found was maybe 2mm movement in front right LCA forward bushing, and half that if any in the rearward bushing.

On the Driver's side, both LCA bushings were tight.

I also noted that most threads mention folks replacing the Passenger side LCA or pressing in new bushings, more than the drivers side.

Curious, yes ?

I just had WM TLE rotate & re-balance the tires, they were a bit out around half ounce per tire. The wear was beginning but not truly bad. Hopefully the new front KYB shocks & the renewed rear Knuckle joint will allow even tire wear.

I must say I'm really impressed at the immense improvement these new shocks have given. The car seems to brake & accelerate more responsively. Less body roll & road noise and no dive when braking.

So, that is great new. Maybe the LCA bushing issue can wait a while, yet.

The car drives fabulous. The wife will be happy to have her 'chariot' back !

Now, it's time for me to do the ML500 shocks front & rear :eek

Fun, Fun, Fun !!

Cheers - David in East Texas
 
#28 · (Edited)
I did put the pry bar between the frame & control arm bushings. What I found was maybe 2mm movement in front right LCA forward bushing, and half that if any in the rearward bushing.

On the Driver's side, both LCA bushings were tight.

I also noted that most threads mention folks replacing the Passenger side LCA or pressing in new bushings, more than the drivers side.
I think the 2mm movement is within acceptable range on the front bushings WITH pry bar leveraged pressure. There's a lot of rubber there and they are oil filled from what I understand. I think you will have ~2mm movement with brand new bushings for that matter. There's no reason for the right side to wear more than the left. Heavy braking and cornering on a regular basis is the only thing that might make them wear sooner than later, everyone has different results there.

On the non-4Matics, your best option especially for DIY is to just buy the LCA with bushings installed as they are cheap enough. Otherwise you need a press or special tools and it's still a PIA. 4Matics have a cast steel/iron LCA (so much for limiting un-sprung weight) that's quite expensive, so those typically get the bushings done rather than replace the whole thing.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top