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Stumbled across an E320 wagon w/60,000 miles....

5K views 60 replies 13 participants last post by  nkn560sl 
#1 ·
Hi, all.

Been a member here for a few years and a proud owner of a 560sl.

I recently came across a privately owned 2002 0r 2003 E320 wagon with only 60K mile. It is located in SC, but I don't yet if it's always been here. Based on the rust belt issues, I'm hoping that is the case.

Manufactured June or July of 2002 per the door sticker.

Is this definitely a 2002 model year based on manufacture? I wasn't sure when the year models switched over.

I was told that the 2003 model year kept the 210 body but incorporated 211 sedan bits.

Is this accurate info? The value between the two model years is a significant $1600 per NADA.

I've read up a good bit on some of the known issues and was curious if the suspensions/ball joint issues are issues on all cars or only salt exposed vehicles? And, if they were addressed early on, were the new parts improved to prevent subsequent failures or should one expect to replace these items again down the road.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks!
 
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#2 ·
2003 E320 wagon was still W210. It did not incorporate W211 bits. 2002 and 2003 wagon were all W210, including all flaws of W210, which as you noted, rust. And yes, all W210 years were susceptible, not just a specific model year.

And yes, new parts would've been improved upon the old part, especially the spring perch. But then again, the only 100% fool proof way to confirm that the spring perch is healthy is to actually take out the spring with a spring compressor. Someone gotta pay for that labor. It is most definitely not included in PPI.

However, the E320 4matic uses a different spring perch and is not susceptible to rust like regular RWD W210.
 
#3 ·
Living in the rust belt is less terrifying than it used to be. My '98 E320 is just now showing rust on the fender lips at 110,000 miles and having spent its entire life in SE MICHIGAN where the typical snow removal process is salt application. MB has very good rust prevention procedures. The underside of a rust belt vehicle may not look pretty, but I've found it not to be as much of a factor as it was in the 70's-90's.

In my experience cars age chronologically and by use. The car you describe has 15 years of age on the soft parts like rubber, plastic and upholstery. The low use can hide aging in springs and the A/C.
Brake fluid can also suffer with low use as it adsorbs water which leads to rust. Often the owner may not have followed the two year recommended replacement guideline.

In my case I found the serpentine belt tensioner to have weakened to approximately 1/2 of normal strength. I completely missed the A/C condition which lead to an expensive replacement of the evaporator.
Otherwise it's a solid vehicle which is passed to my daughter after driving for 4 years. Other normal wear items like motor mounts, transmission mount, front sway bar bushings and the flex disks are likely due for replacement soon.

As Deplore suggests, a PPI is a useful step. Also take the VIN to your local MB dealer and see what their records show. Ask the current owner what has been done and the use your own sense to decide.

This forum has a wealth of information on these vehicles along with plenty of experienced owners.

Happy hunting.

Skippy
 
#5 ·
Thanks, Skippy.

If I get the opportunity to purchase, I am going to have a PPI done. I called my intended Indy mechanic and he quoted only $85, so that is a bargain. He immediately said he loved this particular car as soon as I mentioned it and said he owned one prior to someone wrecking into him. His first and immediate suggestion was to do a transmission service for $250 if we didn't know the history. I presume that is a reasonable price? Oil changes were, I believe, $110. Is this normal? Seems high.

Regarding your A/C, what was it that you missed regarding the evaporator?

I am very familiar with the rubber bits concept that you mention after catching up my 560.

When you say the tensioner was 1/2 tight, that was based on age alone (older but with low miles?) or from mileage?
 
#4 ·
I own one of these, and has been flawless at 193k. Now at 60k it can be a car that never gets a chance to warm up because it doing a few mile drives. Open up the oil filler cap for white-guck(looks like butter). A little bit is fine, but mounds of it like cake frosting is just not great in my camp. I have a few relatives that do about four one-mile trip through out the day, and their cars need oil changes every 1000 miles, and they wear their tires out quick from all the turning, yet for my 100 miles on the highway I may turn the wheel 30 times, yet my relatives will do 3000 turns for their 100 miles, and their oil is thick and black at 3k to 4k, so have the car inspected very well.

I do 80% highway and 20% city driving

Martin
 
#7 ·
Nkn560,

It was my mistake on the A/C. I didn't know enough on what to look for and presumed that some work was needed (like an evacuation and refill).

The tensioner took some time to diagnose. The belt was tight enough for low to moderate electrical uses.
I had a trip from Buffalo, NY to home in SE Michigan during cooler weather and it rained the entire trip. When I parked in the garage there was a pronounced burning rubber smell and the battery was slow to start the car the next morning.
Following that I decided to replace the tensioner and measured the force required to move the old and new units. The old unit took 25 ft lbs and the new was 50 ft lbs.
After that there was no more issue with a higher electric load.

The transmission maintenance seems reasonable. At a minimum it will need 4+ quarts for a pan drop and the whole trans holds 12. Add to that for a filter, gasket and time. An important element to every trans maintenance is replacement of the electric connector. Only use a genuine MB unit which is about $15. This connector has two O rings that leak over time and can bugger things up. Simple to replace when the pan is drained - slightly tricky when pan is full.

Engine oil maintenance uses 9 quarts of 0-40 Mobil 1 along with a fleece filter. The oil can be had from Wally World though I buy the filters from Autohausaz or similar (sometimes the dealer). The price you mention is in the ball park.

Skippy
 
#9 ·
Thanks, Martin.

That makes perfect sense. This car is part of an estate. We handle estate sales for people and I would normally be offering the car for sale to the folks in our customer base. Most of them will see a low miles car and think this is something they should pay a lot for if it runs and shifts well. They would not have this kind of information unless they really went digging to learn.

After reading on my own and after reading your posts, it is clear to me that paying full book value is not a good idea unless most of these components have been addressed. I am eager to see what the previous owner has done over the years.

Your advice about fluids is spot on. The Indy guy I hope to use immediately said change fluids and started quoting prices for various services. I almost feel that I need to leave myself $1500-$2,000 to get all this done if I don't attempt any of it myself. I have read that these cars are fairly easy to service, but "handy' is not in my vocab. I do think I could do basic hoses if access and basic tools are all that is required.

I appreciate your taking the time to list all of these things. You are clearly enthusiastic about the wagon and the 210 platform as a whole. I had posted on a Facebook MB page for advice as well, and the general consensus is that these are great cars if properly maintained.

I will definitely update if I end up with it!

Best regards,

Lee
 
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#11 · (Edited)
Good day Lee,

You are welcome, one does not get to 193k, and be able to go hop in the car to take that trip to New York :wink. I'm very hands-on with my cars at all levels. I know the W140 more(Moderator of the W140 forum), but my W210 is a close second, yet what I said is actually common sense, so one has a point of reference for the best reliability as no excuse can be said to a owner. It applies to any car.

Many smart people are here on this forum. You can do anything as the people here can guide you. Any service is work, and some more tricky/harder. The DIY articles here are the best. Get your self some Metric Tools-3/8" drive sockets, Extensions in all sizes, ratchet(short and long) wrenches, ratchet wrenches, Hex sockets, hex wrenches, torx wrenches, torx sockets, 1/4" drive deep sockets in Metric and SAE, 1/4", 1/4" extensions, 1/4" ratchet, Ahh 3/8" 18"-20" breaker bar, screw drivers, pliers, 1/4" and 3/8" torque wrenches(everything on these German cars has a torque rating, and one of the first things important torque values is the transmission connector-over tight that and you ruin your conductor plate). All of these you can buy from Harbor Freight, and their quality is excellent. Others here will recommend their favorite tools... Ahhh one more tool, is to buy a Transmission Testing tool:

722.6 dipstick | eBay

The hardest is the fluid for the transfer box, and front differential..You will need one special hex socket for the rear differential. I want to say it is a 14mm or 15mm

All the best,

Martin
 
#10 ·
Unfortunately with used car buying it is never easy prediction and PPI is having lot of limits to it.
I bought meticulously dealer-maintained 2008 model with 163k miles on it.
Last service was done about 1500 miles before I picked up the car from Ford dealership, where it was traded.
You might expect that after all the money PO spend at dealer the car will not need much work?
Not so. Even the car look new outside, under the hood, (where female owner never looked) I found lot of kinked and crack hose, missing clips, packed air filters and about 30 lb of gunk from old leaks and oil spills.
Beside quite few days it took me $600 in parts to bring the car closer to 7 sec it suppose to take to accelerate to 100.
You want the car to last and perform >>> DIY
 
#13 ·
At 60K miles - all else equal - proper maintenance by age is prudent because it SAVES YOU MONEY - giving you a car with useful life well past 200K is you want:

1) Your Indy was smart - and pointed out the #1 "soft-spot" to catch up on - and as SJ pointed out +$15 MB/Mopar connector plug - $250 is a very decent price for drop/pan/filter/tranny service

2) Fresh Mann/Bosch fuel filter - $35 for the part - indy labor literally is 15 min when the car is up on the racj

3) Fresh MB or G05 coolant - with distilled water if diluting concentrate

4) Plugs are due by time - OE replacement Bosch recommended - Amazon good price

5) Yes - air/oil filters - air filter Hengst $12 - oil filter "fleece" filter only
 
#15 ·
Just a quick update since the original posting.

I got my hands on the maintenance history today. Original owner was deceased, military officer.

He has had the suggested MB interval service work performed. Brake flushes, plugs a few years ago, etc. I believe coolant has been done. I'm not positive from the records if tranny fluid was done or not as part of the interval service. I think it's called Service B or something like that.

All oil changes were done, synthetic oil.

Ball joints were recently done as was the camshaft position sensor as the car was having related issues for the sensor.

One thing that has been done a ridiculous amount of times is the brake switch sensor. I had been advised these cars have this issue, but it must have been done 5 times since the owner purchased the car at 10,000 miles. Is this just a problem that can't be corrected long term?

There is no record of anything related to the transmission plate, so this has not been an issue at this point.

Car also had leaky valve chamber seals replaced as well as one side of the cat converter.

He definitely had this serviced often and by the dealer at ridiculous cost.

Other than possible rubber bits coming due based on age alone, I don't see neglected maintenance at all.

My wife wants no part of a wagon, so this will be an uphill climb....

I, on the other hand, want a better driving utility vehicle compared to our QX4. I just know this will be a car that will be more expensive and niggling to maintain. I wish MB had the same level of reliability.
 
#17 ·
Thanks, Skippy.

I reviewed the paperwork and it was replaced due to owner reporting issues. One was for hesitation on acceleration from a stop. They attributed it the car thinking the brake was applied while gas was applied. Other times, it was for lights on the dash coming on and the code relating back to the switch.

The car also had an issue with it not wanting to out of park without using the emergency unlock or something like that. It seems to always come back to the brake sensor.

I would definitely do the tranny service if I end up with it or purchase it a good price and turn it back around. My preference is to purchase and keep it if the boss relents....
 
#18 ·
Hi, Martin/All.

I finally drove the car yesterday and it drove great at first. But after a couple of passes up and down the highway (5 minutes), it started having an acceleration issue from a stopped position. There was either a slight delay between the pedal being depressed and the car actually accelerating. Or, I could put my foot all the way to the floor, and then the car would finally "catch up" and begin to accelerate.

I saw this complaint on the P.O.'s paperwork, but the dealer was unable to replicate the issue. He did have the camshaft position sensor recently replaced since the time of the complaint.

Is this a known issue and what would need to be done to fix it?

The only other issue I found were sticky/gummy steering wheel buttons that have to be replaced. They are complete trash at this point. If anyone knows the best place to look/part numbers for the buttons, I am happy to know.
 
#23 · (Edited)
I finally drove the car yesterday and it drove great at first. But after a couple of passes up and down the highway (5 minutes), it started having an acceleration issue from a stopped position. There was either a slight delay between the pedal being depressed and the car actually accelerating. Or, I could put my foot all the way to the floor, and then the car would finally "catch up" and begin to accelerate.
I had this exact same issue. It was the throttle position sensor (~$100). http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=32gqsy45qju3dv45g2prbm45&makeid=800016@Mercedes&modelid=1387638@E430%204MATIC&year=2002&cid=22@Fuel%20%26%20Air%20System&gid=5136@Throttle%20Position%20Sensor

Also there is a simple adaptation procedure for it.. you can try that first, it's free!

Edit: After reading your second post about it I'm convinced that's the problem. I purchased my part from AutoHauz and the Hella is the OEM version but they grind off the Mercedes emblem. It also stored codes, but doesn't set off the check engine light. Easy fix and it's mounted right up under the hood in front of the brake master cylinder area.
 
#21 ·
I don't quite understand.

This was a pretty severe issue as I couldn't pull out into traffic. It may have started as a small "choke" when the car was rolling, but it was pedal to the floor with no response when at a complete stop. It was a couple of seconds before the power developed.

Called the dealer, he mentioned throttle body sensor (I think) and potentiometer. He said it could be the accelerator pedal itself, but he didn't think so.
 
#20 ·
What kind of price do you think the car could be bought for? If it were a 92 I would be nervous but an 02 is still pretty new in my book:wink. Not to say you won't have to make a few repairs. Or catch some maintenance up. For the right price it is an opportunity to get a great car that is getting harder to find with low mileage.
Did you say the car was garage kept? How close to the beach? A good look at those alloys will shed some light on that subject.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Hi, Joe.

Yes, garage kept. It has a decent scratch on the passenger rear door that would need more than a buff out.

Interior is very clean.

It is a good distance from the beach at about 50 minutes. There are sources of water all around here. I don't believe the wheels are pitted as you would find in salt air. My home is on the marsh, so it would get some exposure to salt air here. But so is my 560. Our garage is not sealed or climate controlled. I would like to do so soon since I am restoring a 64 van.

Not sure regarding price. I am hoping that if I buy it, my wife will decide to drive it and like it. Our SUV is so dependable, she will be concerned about expenses in comparison, regardless of her dislike for wagons.

In any regard, I am hoping to be a player for it the same as anyone else. If she insists we can't keep it and I am able to buy it right, I will address the issues and sell it. It has a long history with it and I feel it is pretty up to date, particularly with the known issues. I can see a dealer being interested if they feel they can flip it since the book value is on the low side. It would make a good eBay car, for sure, but I really want to own it.
 
#26 ·
MAF sensor was the other he mentioned. No warning lights on the dash, but he suggested testing for a code.

Thanks for the feedback. I will report back.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Thanks for the info. I will definitely take a look at those links.

I drove it home about 35 minutes, one way.

I never went all the way to the floor with it, and it drove flawlessly. I got it just under 100 mph for a brief time and it effortlessly glides down the road. And that was holding back on the pedal a bit. Shifts smoothly and perfectly. From what I can tell from the records, the transmission has not been serviced since the owner only had factory suggested service work done through the dealer.

I have to get out the manual to figure out the seat adjustments because the back support seemed to only move forward no matter what I did with the button. That made for an uncomfortable ride home, hunched forward.

The electric telescoping wheel is quite nice...
 
#33 · (Edited)
Hi, Joe.

I finally approached the former owner's son about purchasing directly. He sounded very open to it and we were discussing the potential price.

I want to have PPI done first, but it seems to have had lots of known issue stuff already address. The ball joints are really new, camshaft sensor as well.

New condition tires/brakes/rotors.

Just had brand new windshield glass installed (free replacement in SC when cracked larger than a quarter.)

The aforementioned acceleration issue still needs to figured out and I know I need the tranny service. The floor mat's foam backing has deteriorated (I'm sure this has been discussed many times), so that is the only other thing to mention.

As long as I don't find hundreds of dollars in other repairs, I am planning to pull the trigger.

I got my wife on board (as I had hoped once she drove it and saw how clean it is). She doesn't want me changing the wheels or tinting it...

I will definitely update as soon as I have more info.

Thanks for the support!
 
#34 ·
I'm telling 'ya the acceleration thing sounds EXACTLY like the issue I had; runs perfect drives along nicely and go to give it gas to accelerate and it goes no where, just slowly accelerates. No CEL. There were codes I read out that indicated it was the TPS. Changed it, cleared codes, never happened again. My mats has the disintegrating foam as well. Just get the OEM all-weather mats and toss the carpet ones. They have them on Amazon but aren't expensive at the dealer either for a full set.
 
#35 ·
I am definitely taking your advice. I plan to get that part myself and have the shop replace it if I can't do it myself.

Curious how long you have owned your 210 and if it has been a faithful car. This wagon has had a LOT of money put into, but a lot was dealer stupid pricing. It has even had the valve seal gaskets done. It seems he kept it just long enough to have many of the time or mileage related issues "act up" and therefore replaced/repaired them.

I am interested to determine the condition of the rear end leveling items since I don't see any of that in the paperwork.

He also oddly replaced single tires a little bit apart at a time, which makes me suspect there could be or could have been a suspension related tire wear issue.
 
#36 ·
In regards to that part, the best deal I found was on AutoHausAZ. OEM/Hella part ~$100. Has the Mercedes logo but they grind it off. I've had mine for just over 4 years, it's an '02 and I bought it with 26K miles on it. It has been very reliable, is a 4Matic sedan and is still solid at 15 years old. I've maintained it extremely well and have stayed on top of everything. You mention they replaced ball joints and I bet that's why tires might have been wearing on it. I did my ball joints this past September @54K miles, both were shot; Car rode fine, no noises or handing issues but was experiencing outer tire wear on both fronts. It seems like they are a weak link for such a heavy car. I also did the lower control arm bushings that were not terribly worn but I didn't want to have to address them down the road - they are also known to need replacing ~50-60K mark although some have gone well over 150K miles and counting. Mine doesn't leak a drop of anything, never had to replace any gaskets but I've probably just jinxed myself.

I know the air suspensions on the wagons can act up, not from experience but just from reading here. I think some have just ditched the air system when they get problematic and installed coil-overs, someone else might be able to shed light on that. 60K miles is nothing though. What I love about these cars is that they are very serviceable and relatively easy to work on. Classic styling that still looks good and will never get "old". Once you get past the big and well known maintenance items (sounds like PO took the hit for most of that) you should be good for a long time.

Best of luck with it all!
 
#37 · (Edited)
Thanks again.

Yes, I've read that the ball joints are known issues, especially in salt road environment (which we are not.)

I did see in the paperwork that he replaced the original tires at 33,000 miles, which seems odd. The current set are all fairly new mileage wise.

The biggest red flag I am seeing is a continual ESP/ABS/BAS lights that come on or the car exhibits an issue where the lights come on and the cruise control stops functioning until the car is turned off and then restarted. In the lifetime of this car, the C1200 code has been referenced 5 times and has come on for everything from the cruise control function mentioned, to the gear shift lever not coming out of park without the emergency operation (he didn't spill anything into the shifter console) and twice for the aforementioned acceleration/hesitation issue. Each time the brake light switch was tested and then replaced and was said to have an electrical short.

What causes this short and can it not be corrected once and for all? He purchased the car as a second owner at 6500 miles and this first exhibited at 7800 miles and then again at 10,000 miles.

Is this an easy part to replace that I could just pop in myself if I keep a spare handy and can I clear the codes with a basic non Star code checker?

Additionally, the original instrument cluster was replaced at 36,000 miles because the temp reading was missing segments. There is also a complaint for a window intermittently not operating but nothing was found upon inspection.

Lastly, on my second test drive, when I pushed the lever on the door panel to adjust the seat back position, it would only go forward. When I pressed towards the rear of the car to recline the seat, it moved it forward. It worked fine the next day.

Did these cars, or some of these cars, have inherent electrical issues?
 
#38 ·
C1200 is an error code which indicates a plausibility problem between the stop light switch and the BAS release switch. If the system fails the plausibility test, when done with brake pedal depressed, you will have the C1200 set by the ESP module. This problem comes up usually due to an incorrectly adjusted brake switch.

If the door mounted seat control problem is intermittent, this may be due to low battery voltage.
 
#40 · (Edited)
Had my PPI done by a MB master tech.

He said everything looked great. No leaks in the tranny wiring area, a touch of leaking hydraulics in the pump area up front, but he had little to no concern there.

Before clearing codes, ran the Star system and it did come up for the TPS as having a code. When cleared, it did not surface again. So, I will likely have that replaced if the purchase deal goes through.

Suspension related parts were said to look good include motor/tranny mounts and bushings. I still feel the car has a little more body roll than it should, but he sees no reason. Perhaps it's the wagon vs. a sedan?

DONE:

Pretty new tires, brakes, rear rotors, spark plugs, ball joints, camshaft position sensor or similar named items, all prior scheduled A and B services.

NEEDS:

It is due for a $325 B service.

Due for $250 tranny service which includes replacing the transmission pin connector part.

Due for $100 coolant flush.

Both steering wheel buttons need replacement, accelerator issue needs to be addressed, one door has a deep scratch that needs a $250-$300 paint job to repair. (Owner previously had rear end damaged to lift gate area repaired by a body shop.)

Needs the missing antenna escutcheon replaced.

Small crack in front, lower edge of the front fascia, but nothing I would ever fix.

Possibly needs a new switch for the driver's door seat that had an intermittent issue that hasn't resurfaced.

NADA retail price is $8500. I consider this full dealer lot price with the car needing nothing major.

KBB is $4,000.

Taking the average puts it at $6250.

Thought offering $5,000 as it sits would be a fair price (I would make 10% if I sold the car for him, so that is $625 credit based on the average price.)

Does this seem fair? My mechanic to be thought that to be a fair place since it needs roughly $1500 in known work/parts.

I feel the car is worth the $8500 without the door damage and needing no parts or service work and with no history of any prior body work. And, at that price, only a wagon enthusiast would be plucking down that much for a 14 year old MB wagon.

I also called a local dealer associate that said they likely wouldn't pay more than $3500-$4,000 for the car IF it had no prior bodywork. Not sure what they would retail it for.
 
#41 ·
I knew it was the TPS! $5K I think is a fair price for you and the owner. It's 14 year old car, not a collectable so you need to expect the cosmetic things you mention. Sure, yo ucan find one cheaper; it will have more mileage and perhaps been owned by someone not big on maintenance. On an old car like that some bodywork wont depreciate the value by much if at all if it was done properly - in other words, if it's obvious then it wasn't. Compare what you're getting, the ride and the safety and compare that to what else you can buy (other brands) for $5K.. not many great options at that price by comparison.

There's also an invested time and aggravation factor at looking at other peoples misrepresented junk. Well worth paying a bit extra for something a little more exceptional and will probably save you money in long run.

You undoubtedly will need to fix other things during your ownership if you purchase, no different than any other old used car, but with only 60K miles and a PO that serviced it well things should be in your favor for a while.
 
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