Upgrading leaking soft top hydraulic cylinders...

rbrew001,

welcome to the forum! Unfortunately, leaking cylinders on W209 CLKs are becoming quite common now. We upgrade lots of these for shops and dealers, and there is a growing contingent of DIYers sending us their cylinders to be rebuilt.

This is good for our business, but it's really very disappointing how MB has used seals in the W209 cylinders that disintegrate even faster than those in older convertibles. The cylinders are crimped together, which makes it impossible for DIYers to replace the seals, even if the seals were available. I'm attaching below a photo of the seven cylinders in your car's top, and a schematic with the rough location. The same schematic is available on our website, as well: http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/diagrams/W209diagram.jpg

The decay of the seal material is a chemical reaction that gets accelerated by heat. Most people see the front locking cylinder fail first, because it can get exposed to more heat in the car's top. However, once you see any of the other cylinders failing, it is almost guaranteed that all cylinders are in bad shape. The reason is, the six cylinders in the rear are exposed to about the same temperature, so the decay rate of all cylinders in the rear is roughly the same. All cylinders use the same kind of flimsy seals, which will make them fail more or less at the same time.

What I might add to your description of the problem, from talking to you this afternoon, is that this is not just some micro switch not working, but you are having at least one verifiable leak and the pump cannot build enough pressure any more. Be careful not to let the pump run dry for too long. We rebuild the pumps, but that would be an unnecessary expense.

I have not personally worked on W209s, only the cylinders. Not owning a W209 myself, I am not in a position to put together a detailed cylinder removal DIY like I've done for the SL-Series. It would be excellent for the W209 community if you could share your experience in taking the cylinders out and reinstalling them! The bulk of the work will be in removing trim panels and getting access to the cylinders.

Thank you in advance, and I hope that we can get some contributions from others with shop instructions, for example...

Hope this helps, and please keep us all posted,

-Klaus

klaus@tophydraulicsinc.com

 

I've seen your posts before about the near certainty of W209 cylinder failures, so I look forward to that day or two in my garage someday. Realizing it varies depending on climate, etc, can you say at roughly what age you are seeing failures occur, and does the same "defect" in seal material apply through the 2009 model year?

 

When will the hydraulic cylinder seals fail?



Yidney,

thanks for asking, and thank you also for your contribution in the follow-on post.

The W209 model years for which we are doing the most work are 2004, 2005, and 2006. Obviously, the older model years are more likely to show cylinder seal failures by now. It is disturbing that we are already upgrading a large number of W209 cylinders just because the manufacturer for the W209 cylinders made a "mistake".

Regard it as the cost of owning a fancy convertible - almost all modern convertibles will have cylinder seal failure at some point, unless they get wrecked prematurely. We are proud that we have a solution to fix the problem, and at a much lower cost than buying new replacements. Empowering people to do the cylinder swap themselves would be the icing on top of the cake...

As far as material "defects" being limited to a range of W209 model years goes, I'm not aware of it. It is very rare that the materials inside cylinder get changed without change of the part number. The OEM cylinder manufacturer would argue that the failure is normal aging in a high performance product, but I don't blame you for calling it a defect. I would say it's a (very) poor choice.

-Klaus

klaus@tophydraulicsinc.com

 

Part 1

Hi folks - this topic takes quite a lot of drawings to cover, so is on 2 pages.

As has been pointed out, our W209 CLKs are now getting to the age when wear failures are starting to occur, and the Soft Top mechanical, electrical and hydraulic systems are not exempt from this. There a 4 different hydraulic cylinder types, as shown in post #2 above.

The following drawings from my WIS can help with the removal/replacement of these hydraulic cylinders. The rear cylinders are in pairs, but as the WIS only describes the work required on one side, I have assumed that both sides are identical.

The instructions indicate that to get access to the above parts, it is necessary to remove the rear seats and the rear side panels. Details are also provided to achieve that.

NOTE: The WIS instructions give warnings about unexpected operation of the roll bars while working in this area. This could be dangerous, so please take heed of the information provided here.

It is hoped that when members do any of this work themselves they take photos which are posted here for the benefit of others. Topics addressed:

1. Warning about Roll Bar operation
2. Warning about hydraulic fluid
3. Remove rear seat
4. Remove rear side panel

5. Soft top lock unit hydraulic cylinder
6. Soft top actuation hydraulic cylinder
7. Soft top bow hydraulic cylinder
8. Soft top compartment lid hydraulic cylinder

Items 1 to 4 are on this page. Items 5 to 8 are on the following page.

 

Hi folks - this topic takes quite a lot of drawings to cover, so is on 2 pages.

As has been pointed out, our W209 CLKs are now getting to the age when wear failures are starting to occur, and the Soft Top mechanical, electrical and hydraulic systems are not exempt from this. There a 4 different hydraulic cylinder types, as shown in post #2 above.

The following drawings from my WIS can help with the removal/replacement of these hydraulic cylinders. The rear cylinders are in pairs, but as the WIS only describes the work required on one side, I have assumed that both sides are identical.

The instructions indicate that to get access to the above parts, it is necessary to remove the rear seats and the rear side panels. Details are also provided to achieve that.

NOTE: The WIS instructions give warnings about unexpected operation of the roll bars while working in this area. This could be dangerous, so please take heed of the information provided here.

It is hoped that when members do any of this work themselves they take photos which are posted here for the benefit of others. Topics addressed:

1. Warning about Roll Bar operation
2. Warning about hydraulic fluid
3. Remove rear seat
4. Remove rear side panel

5. Soft top lock unit hydraulic cylinder
6. Soft top actuation hydraulic cylinder
7. Soft top bow hydraulic cylinder
8. Soft top compartment lid hydraulic cylinder

Items 1 to 4 are on this page. Items 5 to 8 are on the following page.

I will be removing the cylinders and sending them to Klaus. In the mean time, the "warning" on WIS about depressurizing the system..I am no expert...guide me please. Depressurize, how? I am thinking...have a leaking cylinder now, system has to be depressurized somewhat???

 

Part 2

..Continuation of the topic

 

Thank You for everybody's response thus far!

I plan to begin removal of my rear seat, rear seat panels, and all my trunk panels today and at least locate my failed cylinders.

Hopefully I can study these documents that keyhole provided and figure out how to remove these cylinders this weekend.

I will be documenting and doing a write up of my experience as we head down this road.

If anyone has prior experience working on 209's soft top system any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. It would be great to get a full DIY writeup on here for all the members to enjoy as I assume there will be many more 209's encountering this problem as time goes on.


Let the Fun Begin!! :sawzall:

 

Looking forward to your DIY!

I will be documenting and doing a write up of my experience as we head down this road.
Let the Fun Begin!! :sawzall:

rbrew001,

that's awesome! I hope you have some time and patience to document the process - it would be a great help to the W209 community, as there is a lot of money to be saved by doing the removal and installation yourself.

There is a bit of work involved in documenting this step by step, depending on how much of a perfectionist you are. However, your writeup doesn't have to be in perfect English. It really helps to take notes as you go, and photos are very important. The important part is to get this started, and to show whatever you are able to - others might pick up from there if you run out of steam. Please let me know if I can be of any help.

Once again, that's awesome, and I hope you will be able to share a lot of info with all of us!

-Klaus

klaus@tophydraulicsinc.com

 

If you have the patience to document it, the more detail the better. For example, your very first step is to remove the plastic covers over the nuts that hold on the lower rear seats. WIS provides the very clear instruction - "remove covers." It's actually is a bit tricky. Feel underneath and there is a half round hole. You need a short screwdriver or something else to push up in there to relase a tab on the cover that goes into a hole on a metal bracket. Just fish around pressing up lightly while pulling the cover out gently. Once you get one off - or break one - you'll see how they work. It's knowing how to do these little things that take so much time on a project.

 

I am surprised that motors and gears would be strong enough to move the top. Even old 1960's and 1970's muscle cars I've worked on had hydraulics for the top mechanisms. Really, it is the most efficient way to do things. Electric motors and gears for the same job would have to be very large.

 

The motor a were actually quite small. There was one in the windshield header and one or each side in the back and and a couple for the back panel and screw down things - I think 5 total, but they were power seat motor sized or smaller.

 

Yidney - I'd be very interested in a DIY if you have one.

I am having similar top issues.

 

I have no DIY. My car has not had any top problems yet. Another guy on this thread was going to post a DIY, but has not. I simply told him how to remove the seat bolt covers, which I just happen to know from taking the lower cushions out once.

 

DIY for cylinder replacement probably coming soon

Folks, Top Hydraulics is planning on creating a cylinder swap DIY asap. All we need are good photos of the process from one of you, or a W209 on site to quickly swap the cylinders on. If there is anyone willing to drive to our location on the Oregon Coast, we would be willing to give them a major price break in return for the privilege of taking photos of the cylinder removal process. Actually, the WIS instructions posted here earlier are quite good. They are a bit intimidating until you look at the system with the instructions in hand, and suddenly the pictures make sense. There are few tools needed, the front lock cylinder can be removed in a matter of 30 minutes, and DIYers could easily take out all cylinders in an afternoon.

Rbrew has been out of the country for a while; it is my understanding that he will be posting an update soon after he is back.

I have not worked on a W209 car itself, but the top system is extremely similar to that of late model Saab 9-3's. I hope that nobody is offended; the top systems are made by the same manufacturer.

I have recently swapped all cylinders on a late model Saab, without even looking at instructions first, and it took me about two hours with a helper, not counting the time it took to document the process and take loads of pictures. It's easy!

We are rebuilding/upgrading many these cylinders on a daily basis now, and I hope the DIYs will help many more W209 owners in saving big bucks and actually getting a better product into their car.

-Klaus

klaus@tophydraulicsinc.com
Top Hydraulics | Rebuilt Convertible Hydraulics - Top Hydraulics, Inc

 

Thanks as always Klaus; we look forward to continued progress!

 

**UPDATE**

UPDATE**
Removed both rear bow cylinders (the cylinders that pop the rear trunk lid) and hydraulic pump.

Had Rear Bow Cylinders sent out and repaired by Top Hydraulics and Klaus is great on customer service. He was quick with turnaround unfortunately after reinstalling these cylinders the top still was not working.

This means I must have a internal leak somewhere in the remaining 5 cylinders that operate the clk's soft top system.

Now it's on to the task of removing all 5 remaining cylinders and having them sent out for inspection / repair at Top Hydraulic.

BACK TO WORK**

I was gone travelling SE Asia for a few months; I apologize for the delay on an update. I am back now and plan to have the top back in action shortly.

Today I am working on removing the rear seats and have ran into a small problem on removing the back seat. The instructions tell you to drop the top to remove the rear seats....Thats a problem considering MY TOP DOESNT DROP!!!

I went ahead with the instruction anyways and got the bottom portions of the rear seat and bose subwoofer removed no problem. Now I am stuck trying to figure out how to remove the backseat. It seems the top part is fastened up top somehow and there is not much room to work or see around as the top is up. Been researching google and the forums and cant come up with anything.

If anyone has any pointers on removing the rear seat that would be much appreciated.

 

Back Seat Removal

BACK SEAT UPDATE**

I was able to hop into the back seat with the top up and front seats forward. I am 5'11" and 190 lbs so this wasnt the easiest task luckily I am still mid 20's and agile.

Once in the backseat and having completed steps 1-9 on the WIS rear seat removal instructions (keyhole provided on 1st page). I was able to lift up and then pull forward releasing the rear seat from being connected by the headrests.

Now I am stuck on step 10 which is to removed connector (12). I have tried everything to remove this connector pulling, prying, pliars, and more pulling nothing seems to work and all I have managed to do is pull it farther out of the plastic casing.

I attached pictures if anyone has any pointers on disconnecting this plug; please post here or PM me.

The faster I get the back seat removed the faster I can get onto removing the remaining cylinders and begin making the DIY Removal Instructions for all 7 hydraulic cylinders.

 

I can't tell you how, but there will be a retainer clip holding it together. You're just going to have to study it closely and figure it out. I have never encounter a wiring harness connector on an MBZ that couldn't be disconnected without pressing, pulling or twisting manually.

 

does anybody know what types of hydraulic fluid is needed for a 2003 clk 430 soft top

 

Hydraulic fluid for the convertible top

Bobbyx1,

you can get the OEM fluid from the dealer, or get FeBi 02615. Do NOT get any fluid from a national chain auto parts store. Off the shelf hydraulic fluids in auto parts stores have additives in them that will likely make the seals in your seven hydraulic cylinders fall apart all the faster!

Top Hydraulics' FAQ page FAQ | Top Hydraulics, Inc. - Top Hydraulics, Inc has a link to buy Febi 02615 from an online seller: Your Parts Search Returned 2 Part(s), (Top Hydraulics is not related).

Very important, though: Have you found and fixed your hydraulic leak? If the fluid is low, then you have a leak. If you don't fix the leak, you will be sorry...

Klaus

klaus@tophydraulicsinc.com
Top Hydraulics | Rebuilt Convertible Top Hydraulic Cylinders - Top Hydraulics, Inc

 

Hi there i have a clk w209 2007 convertible and behind the passenger seat there seems to be hydralic fluid leaking there only when opening or closing i have been quoted £750

 

Balal,

welcome to the forum! Where are you located?

It is highly likely that you have a leaking hydraulic cylinder. Did the quote mention which hydraulic cylinder needs to be replaced?
Are referring to the fluid being behind the rear seat, or is it dripping from the top?

Sounds like a main lift cylinder or a bow tension cylinder if the leak is right behind the rear seat. We usually see the main lift cylinder failing before the bow tension cylinder. It's a bit of a toss-up, but the most common progression of failure starts with the front lock cylinder 2098001172, then moves to both tonneau cover cylinders 2098001272, then main drive cylinders 2098000772 and 2098000872, and then bow tension cylinders 2098000972. You can find the bow tension and main lift cylinders aka main drive cylinders if you stop the opening/closing cycle when the rear of the soft top is up - you can see them mounted in the convertible top frame accessible from the storage compartment.

Any of the six cylinders in the rear are used in pairs, and it is almost certain that the matching cylinder on the other side will fail soon if you replace or upgrade only one of them. Having the cylinders upgraded by Top Hydraulics is cheaper than buying new ones, and delivers you much higher quality.

Please let us know what you find.

Klaus

Top Hydraulics | Rebuilt and Upgraded Convertible Top Cylinders, Pumps, Hydraulic Lines - Top Hydraulics, Inc

 

Hi again yes i was for a cylinder being replaced and it it is leaking from the roof i am located in reading uk

 

I have a 2005 CLK Cabbie and I expect I'll have to do this sometime in the next few years. If the cylinder above the windshield is usually the first to go I should be looking for the first leak there. Where does the leak first show up when that cylinder fails?

Steve

 

Steve,

I appreciate your question, as the answer is a bit counter-intuitive. The front lock cylinder will typically leak from the rear of the cylinder first. The fluid usually comes out through the bushings in the rear of the cylinder. The reason is, the seal in the rear of the cylinder is the smallest one in the cylinder made of Polyurethane, and this material decays with time. The chemical decay of these seals is unavoidable, and it is accelerated by heat and contaminated hydraulic fluid.

Unfortunately, the cylinder in the front P/n 2098001172 aka A209 800 11 72) is the hardest one to check. It takes the removal of four rivet style fasteners from a trim panel when the top is down with the storage cover up. The trim panel is the plastic piece in front of the fabric headliner. Remove the four fasteners (you can unscrew the inner tab if you don't push on it while turning, and then the outer part can simply be pulled up), and then lift the trim panel straight up. This will expose the front lock and cylinder. See pics below.

When the top is up, the leaking fluid will either come out on the side of the trim panel, or drip through the plug in the middle. It will make its way into the headliner fabric when the top moves.

Klaus

 

Steve, just keep an eye on your fluid level. If you see it going down, then look for leaks. Otherwise, you may never have a problem. In fact, one of the worst things you can do with a cabriolet is to not use it - sitting idle will cause the cylinder seals to dry out.

 

Mark the fluid level with a sharpie



rudeney,

I agree that checking the fluid level tells you whether there is a serious leak. If one is very exacting, then repeated checking can alert to leakage - see my suggestion below.

My concern is that the first, slow leak will not be very obvious in the reservoir. An ounce of fluid leaked from the top lock cylinder can already create some significant stains in the headliner or create some damage once dripping inside the car, yet it accounts for less than the fluid level change in the reservoir with the top up or down, or just with the storage cover open vs closed.

One would have to mark the exact fluid level in the reservoir with the car in a level position, and always inspect with the top in the same position (and the car in a level position). The slightest change of fluid level in the reservoir would then alert to a possible leak. Get out the sharpies!

Klaus

Top Hydraulics | Rebuilt and Upgraded Convertible Top Cylinders, Pumps, Hydraulic Lines - Top Hydraulics, Inc

 

Hi i have found out the leak it is one of the hose running down the side of the roof and it is running to the fround locks has a slit in it can some please send diagrams of how to see or find the pump for the roof and how to take front locks out please thanks

 

Balal

If you live in Reading England, I must assume that you know how to write in English. We do not communicate in text-speak, so if you want replies to your questions you must make yourself clear. This means using fullstops and capital letters in your sentences. Otherwise it is garbage.

Balal,

cuts in hoses are rare and leaking cylinders are common. Please check carefully. If you see a cut in the line, please take a photo and attach it, showing where the cut is. Together with an explanation in (somewhat) proper English, this will help others and make this thread more valuable. Once we have a better understanding of the situation, we would be happy to give you some useful advice. Thank you in advance for your efforts!

Klaus

Top Hydraulics | Rebuilt and Upgraded Convertible Top Cylinders, Pumps, Hydraulic Lines - Top Hydraulics, Inc

 

Balal

If you live in Reading England, I must assume that you know how to write in English. We do not communicate in text-speak, so if you want replies to your questions you must make yourself clear. This means using fullstops and capital letters in your sentences. Otherwise it is garbage.

 

Thanks to you both. I do use the top often so I should be good there. It's interesting that the cylinder in the front of the convertible top is the first to usually go. Right where it's most noticeable. I'll keep an eye on it. Thanks.

Steve

 

Hi there sorry for my language .
I am certain that there is a spilt in the pipe and I have double checked that it is one of the two pipes running from the front lock to the pump in the boot .
I have ordered the part £250 and I need help taking the hoses of the pump as I am quite confused .
Thanks Balal

 

Top Hydraulics manufactures hydraulic lines



Balal,

that's a new one to me. Top Hydraulics manufactures and sells many hoses, but we haven't run into the hoses on the W209 top going to the top lock cylinder being a problem. Split lines are a common problem in newer Saab and BMW convertibles, plus the lines crumble apart on Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Ferrari, VW, Jaguar, Audi, older Saabs, etc...

Just to clarify: hydraulic lines or hoses are often called hydraulic pipes in the UK. If we knew the exact length of the hose needed (or you were to send us your old one), then we could manufacture a new one for a fraction of what you had to pay the dealer.

To remove the hydraulic line from the pump, you need to first unbolt the retaining plate that holds all lines. Then you pull on every single line separately, because it is too hard to pull them all at once. At this point, all lines are still inside the retaining plate. Next, once the plate and all hoses have been pulled off the pump, you push the hose that you want to replace about 1/2 inch back into the retaining plate. You will notice a small retaining clip that you need to remove. Once the clip is removed, you can pull the hose out of the plate.

Re-install the new line exactly as the old one was routed in your top. Make sure to check for the cause of the split in the line and to eliminate it if needed.

Klaus

Top Hydraulics | Rebuilt and Upgraded Convertible Top Cylinders, Pumps, Hydraulic Lines - Top Hydraulics, Inc

 

Thanks for that but how do i bleed the new pipes I put on .
I would send the measurement of the hoses but they are still on the car.
I have just taken the boot apart.

 

The hydraulic system is self bleeding

Balal,

there is no bleeding required - the system is self bleeding. It will take a few cycles to get all the air out of the hoses, and the top lock will be a little noisier during those first cycles. The lines hold some 10-15 ml of fluid each. The cylinder displaces more than that when it moves. If the cylinder has fluid in it when you attach the new line, then the bleeding process will go a little faster.

Klaus

www.tophydraulicsinc.com