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Pre-build C43+ clone concept

6K views 77 replies 4 participants last post by  Patman1 
#1 ·
With the resurrection nearly complete with the 95 C220, and the fact it went extremely well, brain is spinning with all the new found possibilities for the next project. First dip into the Benz world has been great and I've been extremely pleased so far as how well these cars are built and simple to work on.

So......... being the hot rodder that I am, and the fact that for some reason MB stuff is beyond dirt cheap up here, I'm seriously considering stepping up the game for the next car related project.

So this thread is designed to discuss and hash out some of the details involved with building something cool, I find that now is the best time to discover and evaluate problems when anything is possible, and everything is free... saves a ton of time and work down the road. Also stops chasing in the wrong direction. And from the very warm welcome and depth of knowledge here, I think most would enjoy a good game of "what if"

Using the C43 as a very loose template, the basic concept is to take a W202 chassis, drop it a touch, stiffen up everything in the chassis for handling, bigger wheels, bigger brakes, and stuff as much usable horsepower into it as possible. End goals (again in theory) would be a car under 3500 lbs. capable of pulling 1G on a skidpad, stop hard enough to pull the snot from the back of your head, and I would like a zero to 60 time under 4.5 seconds.... top speed may be important, but I wont get to the track that much....

From my limited research, the C43 was a standard C class that used the M113 motor, E55 brakes, SL500 5 speed tranny, and AMG did the tweaking. My initial thoughts are use a 119 powerplant, copy the rest... I most likely will use a C220 pre 1997 for simplicity of electronics (security, and body CPU) and again, I have 5 cars within an hours drive that are under $500... and I would love to have a few extra parts for my current C220 which is stock.

I'll be using a stand alone engine management system, couple more calls to make on that, but I've got a couple folks on board with the idea..

Initial plan is to acquire a m119 motor, tranny, cooling, and anything else I think I may need from a donor car. Get the initial fit and mechanicals working, bodywork etc...Then while all the dialing in and setup is being done with the stock pieces, snag another 119 and build it up as a bi-turbo waiting for the rest to be sorted out. That way I've got minimal investment and time spent getting the thing to actually run, cooperate, and troubleshoot. then with a working platform simply swap the motor out for a more powerful one... This will be a car designed for fun, good weather, stone axe reliable but also over the top ridiculous.

So thoughts, idea, experiences..... lets have em. I am open to any and all input, and I have no "set in stone" concepts other than using the C220.
 
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#2 ·
We already hashed out that the m119 is a good place to start for your project, and you seem to have the rest of the power train sorted out.

I'll give you some good pointers on the suspension. Basically you will want to use the H&R lowering springs, Bilstein B8 shock absorbers, 28mm H&R front ARB, 18mm H&R rear ARB. While you are at it, I would replace the front lower and upper control arms, and fit eccentric bolts on the lower control arms. In the rear you will have to remove the rear subframe to replace the anti roll bar, so while you are at it, you can replace the subframe and differential mounts. I would also replace all the rear links and the rear lower control arms. You should also fit eccentric bolts on the rear lower control arms. You could run on the thinnest rear spring pad, but you will have to chose the correct front spring pad to maintain a level ride height. I would also not omit to instal the lower spring seals, as well as the spring braces.

This combination of elements will give you the best handling, and it will not kill the ride. You will also be able to adjust the front camber and caster angles, as well as the rear camber angle, so you will be able to maintain the correct suspension geometries all around.

I would not recommend lowering the car any more than the H&R springs do, lowering a car does not inherently do anything to improve cornering grip, and excessive lowering will actually reduce grip. And by god, do not install coilovers. Coilovers are only a marginal upgrade for cars with struts, but you have an enormous advantage of having seperate springs and shocks, so keep it that way! I'd love to elaborate on that, but my differential equations lecture is starting now.
 
#3 ·
Yes, m119 trumps the rest, the m120 would fit but cost, power per lb., availability of performance parts and doner vehicles, and packaging outweigh the novelty of a v12. Which m119 variant needs to be discussed.

Tranny needs to be discussed as does 3rd member options.

Thank you for the detailed suspension mods... echoes what I'm wanting.

Have no fear about creating a low rider, I'm wanting to lower the car very slightly for yes aesthetics, but more to lower center of gravity to enhance suspension mods, stiffening of the chassis, and reducing the unsprung weight.

Coil overs are great in a very limited envelope... this isn't it though. If I were pushed into a packaging restriction, or were concerned with rapid adjustability of instant center and weight transfer I would consider them... however I'm not drag racing this car, nor do I want to give up much ride quality and handling capability.

The stock setup with outboard dampening allows a ton of benefits, not the least of which is the capability to tune the rebound rates at the point of leverage before it causes the spring to react.... this gives a firmer feeling ride with great feedback and response without having a twitchy bouncy spring.... I would spend a fortune tuning coilovers to get close..... no real benefit for the $$$$. I would be better off spending the time chasing the front/rear wt. balance.

Friend has a great chassis shop, wheeled Dyno tuning shop which I use for my diesel... mega squirt is on board with engine management, got a vendor that deals with Wilwood for braking needs... laser cutting, my own mill and lathe, my side business has vacuum forming plastic capability, and I'm learning as much as I can.... this should be fun.

Next "detail" would be rigidity of the chassis, possibly tying in the sub frames, places to shed some weight, brake cooling, creating the overall scheme of things.... body kits? Splitters, tasteful downforce?

paint scheme also is starting to pop in and out... thinking dark gray lower, red pinstripe at belt line, matte black above that. Red trimmed black BBS wheels, looking to work in some NACA ducts for brakes, turbos.... interior will be comfy, but business oriented.
 
#4 ·
Well I'm glad we agree on the suspension front :D There is no front subframe per say, the suspension components tie directly to the chassis. I wouldn't worry too much about chassis stiffness, a lot of this car has roots from the W201 (which was a successful DTM chassis). If you ever get to tear this car apart, you will notice it's already reinforced with lots of HSLA steel, on top of it already being a very solid construction.

Brakes wise, notice that your front brakes already have cooling ducts, I don't think the rear ones will need any additional direct cooling, especially not if you consider dropping in E55 brakes. If you can get a BBK from wilwood, then well, awesome! I saw that brembo has a mad BBK for the w202, but unfortunately they are too expensive for my current student budget.

Excellent choice on the BBS rims, I totally would love to put BBS on my car, but they can get quite pricey :D (I've got RTX rims now, they are pretty nice).

I'm getting a little jealous here :D You've got all the resources I wish I had, I'd be building the most awesome MBs everyday :D


If I were to toss in my recommendation, there are 3 basic m119 engines, 4.2, 5.0, 6.0, but GOOD LUCK trying to find a 6.0. It's extremely rare, found on basically the E60 AMG and the CLK LM (both extremely rare cars). The 5.0 and 4.2 are both pretty common and easily found, with parts available for cheap. I'd go for the 5.0, I know turbos are good fun at making a car fast, but there's no replacement for displacement right? (Plus they both have the same reliability on average). A 5.0 twin turbo in a 22 year old car, eating any supercar that comes your way? :D That sounds totally awesome.

Transmission-wise, if you want to go automatic, I'd use a 722.6 with a standalone TCM. During the Daimler-Chrysler partnership, the 722.6 (also called the 5Gtronic) was used in chrysler vehicles as the NAG1. The drag racing scene in USA quickly figured that with little modification (mainly running the euro-spec valves in the valve body), the NAG1/722.6 could handle 1000lb-ft of torque like a picnic. There is a standalone TCM available for it, letting it work in any car, and it would be an easy fit in the W202 (actually, the W202 used the 722.6 starting 1997 on all models). Bell housings and flex-plates won't be an issue either.

If you want to go manual, ask the local south-african boys here :D They will probably know more about this than I will, I find automatic transmissions way too fascinating to be bothered with manuals. The only thing I know is that there is a massive electronic issue with doing an auto -> manual conversion if you use the stock ECM, but you're dodging the chevrolet corvair ou of that bullet.

Weight balance-wise, notice that the engineers at mercedes thought about you 22 years ago, the big heavy battery is at the back :D A good portion of the engine is behind the front axle, and the transmission is further back too (unlike transverse engined econoboxes), the weight distribution is probably already fairly close to 50/50. I don't see how much you will improve over here.

If by some twist of faith I end up in wisconsin, I'd be glad to lend a hand :D
 
#5 ·
Thank you for clarifying the variants, I suspected the 6.0 was rare.... lots of 5.0 cars in the area. I've been reading on another board 500sel something something.com. Tons of custom 119 setups... now closed head vs open? Need more research but I can get into a 92-93 model year dirt cheap....

Since I would be starting the physical project with a bone stock 5.0 and tranny to get the project up and running, initially it doesn't matter. Plan is to shove it in there and work around it. Then snag a second motor to work up into a monster.... it will need custom pistons to lower the compression ratio, so may as well bore it out a bit....again research shows up to 100 mm is safe. I don't know if the cranks are forged, but for the most part the m119 is regarded as bulletproof.

I am super comfortable with turbocharging, I have lost count of the different turbo setups and computer tuning I have done on the truck, but yes turbos are a wonderful way to make stupid power levels.... longevity becomes the real question. Actually though larger displacement and turbocharging becomes a negative at some point. Response time to cram several atmospheres in a huge void takes longer than a small one.

One reason I chose mega squirt is that they have multiple levels of boost retard, rpm and boost fuel and ignition mapping, and they are truly a hands on tuner friendly setup. You can even build your system piece by piece...

I'll stick with auto----as much as I would love to have a stick shift, it brings a level of complexity I don't want.... try finding a clutch to live behind a geometric power curve. And yes, while Chrysler transmissions are pure junk stock.. they can be built to be bulletproof. I also want the car to be comfortable to drive....not going to always be driving triple digits with my hair on fire.

Brake ducting meaning NACA ducts in the body, particularly trailing... the sheet metal begs for it, found some glass front fenders with ducting built in. And turbos make heat instantly... pulling it out from under the hood quickly will certainly aid in keeping performance higher....and they look cool.

Might run the C43 body kit to accentuate the lines and ductwork. But I want everything functional, haven't decided yet on that.

Chassis setup to me is where the project will either be awesome or useless... if it doesn't handle well, and ride well then why bother. That 50/50 split may have been designed into the platform 2 decades ago, but they never designed the m119, lower stance, twin turbos etc.... into that mix. The C43 used the m113 I believe. performance #'s weren't silly impressive in the handling dept.

Another friend of mine built a Shelby cobra clone complete with 427 side oiler.... that car did everything at such a vicious level it was mind numbing to experience....trying to duplicate that feeling.
 
#6 · (Edited)
In my mind, there is only one M119 that counts, and that is the 5.0 lt. The 4.2lt was nothing but trouble here in South Africa, so it earned a bad reputation. Ultimately, the W124 was never released here with a V8, while the W140 was most often equipped with the M04 3.2lt or the M119 5.0 lt engines.

Interestingly, the 4.2lt M116 was similar: The W126 420SE was only offered here from 1986 to 1988. Thereafter you could only get the 300SE, 500SE and 560SEL. The 4.2 lt M116 was not smooth, not powerful and not economical when compared to the earlier 3.8lt engine.
 
#7 ·
5.0 it is then... certain years? I'm thinking with the engine management, and overall packaging I'd like to stay within the individual coil to plug years... would make things a bit easier for tuning and keep plug wires from draping over everything.

Also not a fan of high heat turbos and plug wires. Avoiding a cap and rotor and the associated signal losses from several feet of wire would be a benefit with tuning everything.
 
#8 ·
I think you will find coil-on-plug starting 1997. The fuel injection systems on the m119 were as follows: LH-SFI (distributor + direct port injection), HFM-SFI (wasted spark + direct port injection) and ME-SFI (coil-on-plug + direct port injection). You'd be looking for 1997, perhaps 1998 cars mostly, when the m113 came around, it quickly displaced the m119 on some models. The m119 crankshaft is forged! So through as much boost pressure at it as your heart desires :p

If you want to use a body kit, you are basically limited to AMG, unless you get extremely lucky and stumble across a Brabus or Lorinser body kit, but damn, good luck on that too! If you do decide to go on an AMG bodykit, there will be some modifications required to the front bumper as the AMG brake cooling ducts are placed more towards the center than on the vanilla W202 to fit the extra set of fog lights. You would have to modify the part of the floor which the side skirt hides, the skirt creates a trap for water and road garbage to accumulate, and can rust that area out badly. I remember a thread of someone who had a C43 which was never winter driven, he pulled the side skirt and there was HUGE rust damage. The owner cut and welded large sections of the floor to fix it, but he did an extremely good job and you could not tell at all that the area was repaired. You could coat the floor with an extra layer of rubberized paint, maybe drill some extra drain holes, and seal off any problematic section to make it a lasting type thing. You could easily lower the car's drag by installing a "diffuser" to block the area between the spate wheel well and the rear bumper, air likes to create a vortex as it passes through there, causing lift and drag. Lorinser solved that problem by cutting some slats in the their rear bumper, but I personally don't like the look of the Lorinser bumpers (the small wing on the trunk is sweet though).

We haven't talked diff yet! I'd recommend you look into Wavetrac. They're the new kid on the block, but they get excellent reviews and they make a differential that fits the W210 (which uses the same diff as the W202). What it is is a torque biasing differential that solves the zero-load condition (unlike Torsen, Quaiffe, Truetrac etc. which behave like open diffs under zero-load). The Wavetrac would be a drop-in replacement, it fits in the factory housing and uses the factory ring and pinion gears, it also uses the factory fluid with no special additives needed.
 
#9 ·
The WaveTrac is an awesome concept! The best of the Torsen diff and mechanical locking! I have been thinking about it in my W123 and W202. Unfortunately, it probably won't be easy to adapt to the W123.
 
#10 ·
I do like the Wavetrac. Clutch-type LSDs are awesome, but only for a race car on a racetrack, on a daily car it can be trouble (especially if the preload is high). The only other option for not center diffs was some sort of torque biasing differential, but until the Wavetrac came along they were all useless under zero-load. I'd like to put in a wavetrac in my C220 some day, I do take out my car in the winter sometimes (rarely though), usually during a huge snow storm so I can pretend to be WRC on my street :D A good diff would make it so much fun.
 
#11 ·
We don't really get snow here, but when it rains we get a lot of mud. And potholes.

This is why I have the crazy notion of making my W123 an AWD. I even have the 5-speed manual transmission and transfer case from a W124!

BTT, I don't think there any differences between the 5.0lt V8s used across the various models that used them (although I believe the R129 SL500 was rated at 245kW instead of 240kW like the rest). Also, the spark plugs and injectors don't care where they get their signal from. But, if it matters that much to you, the R129 ECU looks a lot like, and should fit, the W124. I'm pretty sure that it will also find its place easily in the W202.
 
#12 ·
Well the ECM isn't really a problem for him, he's going to use a custom one :D The cool thing about custom ECMs is you get to pick and chose your sensors, they will work with just about anything.

When you get your swap done, you should stick on a C180 badge :D Make it a mad sleeper.
 
#13 ·
So we've sorted out the tranny, rear diff. Most of the suspension, engine choice, wheels, and to some extent overall appearance.

Now since we are sticking with the m119 and coil on plug ignition-- 1997 or newer (the megasquirt 3 ecu really favors the individual coils over single coil setup.). This is more of a consideration down the road as that system allows infinite tuning maps for boosted/injector/timing combinations. I'm going to stuff in a plain vanilla m119 to start with and get everything sorted out. Probably won't even clean it up...just stab it in. After I've got all the fabrication done and everything working well...build a monster motor to swap in...just need to develop new tuning maps for the ecu at that point.... which honestly is very simple with a few hours on a chassis Dyno and a laptop.

Now, I'm totally unfamiliar with the electronic side of things when we start talking about security and vin coded systems on the car. We're sticking to a prefacelift w202 car as from what I can tell, they have a bit more space to play with under the hood, and I like the look better. Will I run into issues with having door locks, ignition keys and multiple systems not recognizing the new m119, tranny, etc... i.e. Will the chassis electronics be looking for inputs and go/no go signals from sensors that aren't there? I would like to keep the stock gauges in the car and add on a separate mechanical set for boost, fuel pressure, tranny temps etc...

My guess is I'm going to be looking for a 1997 w202 chassis, and a 1997 m119 donor. Tranny to get the 5 speed auto might be tough to find in that year also, but I've been looking into the standalone system mentioned earlier and it should work with anything. Good news is that we're talking a fairly linear power curve with a boosted motor, no brutal torque spikes so it should live well with lots of cooling.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Later MY 1997 were already face lifted, and all the subsystems on the car were more integrated with the car's can-bus. It would be better to go for a 1996 or prior w202 which had most of its chassis electronics point-to-point. I doubt the security system will work without the stock ECM. You might be able to keep the physical key, but the DAS system will have to be tossed out. You could rig the central locking pump to operate on an aftermarket remote entry system. The cluster communicates over the K1 serial interface, I'm sure you can find some literature on that, but in general it shouldn't be too difficult getting the cluster to work with a custom ECM. Besides, most of the functions on the cluster (like the warning lights, fuel quantity, coolant temp) operate on seperate circuits from the K1 interface. I would expect a bunch of small electronic snags, but nothing major. In summary, you will want to stay away from smart-keyed w202s for this project.

If you get a 1995 or 1994 w202 chassis, you might actually be able to keep the DAS system, and adapt the megasquirt to the DAS.
 
#15 ·
I would love for you guys to elaborate more on the Wavetrac dif. This is a mod I would love to do to my car, as it absolutely SUCKS driving in the winter. I dont know much about the wavetrac, do they make one specifically for our rear ends? Any mods you have to do? What are the advantages of it vs. other lsd's? Are there any links documenting an installation of one?
 
#16 ·
Well, I'm learning about the wavetrack myself...
Wavetrac® Differential - A torque biasing differential with a difference
My experiences with rear axle mods fall into a fairly limited application...

1. I need the rear end to put maximum power to the ground without breaking in a straight line. (Locker in a heavily trussed housing usually narrowed and pinion centered with massive axleshafts with multiple splines). Examples are Chrysler 9.25, Dana 60. These need to put 50/50 power down, handle massive shock loads, allow for fast simple adjustments to instant center for track conditions, and they need to live for 1,320 feet at a time. Cheap, simple, strong, and horrible for almost anything else than driving straight.

2. I need to shave as much weight as possible, allow rapid changes to axle length, rapid gear changes (new gear ratios for longer shorter track distances), handle massive leverage forces on the loaded side (Rt side) from huge tires and a very loose road surface (dirt/clay). Also needs to tolerate excessive wheel spin, brutal shock forces and ironically constant positive/negative power inputs... This is a Franklin quick change rear axle setup... massive size and cost, but does the job like nothing else.

3. Normal driving, I want to forget about it...seamless, smooth, quiet and long life. Lockers are clunky feeling, have horrible turning characteristics, and the negative input (foot off the gas) causes other traction issues on low grip surfaces. Limited slip units work well as they "unload" the wheel when turning, and typically behave better on low grip situations as they do not lock up the wheels with a negative input as bad.... this also is what most applications use in one form or another. But it does what it does...that's it, no adjustments can really be made, no tuning, and has definite thresholds to power input....and they can break super easy with a high shock load while unlocked.... (twisted axles...broken spiders etc...). They also have a delay...

When turning, let's use a cloverleaf on ramp as an example, 1 wheel unloads as the outboard tire is actually going farther in distance, and the weight transfers to the outside leaving the "unloaded" tire with zero input until you get the wheels traveling the same distance and the weight of the car roughly equal (straight). In a high horsepower application that load hits right now.... and you induce a "wiggle" or loss of traction.... watch most sports cars leaving a turn under throttle and you will see it getting unsettled until the tires grip and pushes forward equally....(toss in a odd weight balance and an inexperienced driver....aka Porsche.... ) and you get big fun.

Now to answer your questions...

It looks like yes, they have a lot of Mercedes applications, and I'm almost positive we could adapt a different series carrier into the mix if it is not.

For your application I would just install it, way better driving habits over an open diff in low traction situations. (Snow). No mods will probably be needed.

I believe instructions are included, and they have a website and customer service/tech line. setting this up will require special tools to set backlash and tolerances same as any install....it's basically a mini spool in setup. Bolt your ring gear on, set the lash, slide in the axles, adjust preload, and profit...

For me..... tuning that no load, full load and the fact I don't have to design the entire rear of the car around an axle. (Franklin) and it will have great manners like a lsd, but the durability and weight savings of a spool... best of both worlds.

Using the cloverleaf example again..... if I understand the wave track correctly, once the load starts to return (past the apex, weight transitioning back to center) it has a gradual bias that can be tuned...i.e. It isn't off/on...it can be tuned to allow increases of power transition.... this means I don't have to focus so much on chassis roll. Dampening values, spring rates etc..... but if I do, good lord this thing could be wonderful.

And for all that...it's cheap (for the benefits) allows a really big improvement for a very limited niche market that honestly I didn't think I would find anything and have to adapt something else. I don't need additives like unicorn tears to make it live or ultra expensive short lifespan nonexistent gear oils). And 99.9% bolt in.... for me not a big deal, but huge for others.

For me I just use this for winter....
 

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#18 ·
Alright george, I'll do a crash course on differentials.

Open differentials are torque-biasing differentials with a 1:1 bias ratio, meaning the maximum amount of torque that can be sent to the wheel with good traction is 1X the torque the wheel with bad traction can put down. Differentials such as Torsen, Quaiffe, Wavetrac are also torque biasing, but with a higher bias ratio, usually between 3:1 and 5:1. Suppose we pick the latter as our differential, that means that the most torque the wheel with good traction can receive is 5X the torque the wheel with bad traction is putting down. So if the bad wheel is slipping at 20nm of torque, the good wheel is putting down 100nm.

The problem occurs when one wheel can't put in torque down, like if it is in the air or on slippery ice, then its putting down 0nm of torque, and the other wheel is receiving 5X0nm, so it's also receiving 0nm of torque. This is where Torsen, Quaffie and all the others fail. The Wavetrac has an internal device that generates friction between the 2 axles when they are operating under a sufficiently large difference of rotational velocity, so it overcomes this zero load issue.

Torque biasing differentials with a bias ratio of higher than 1:1 are gear operated, usually with some type of worm gear and worm wheel arrangement (because a worm gear can drive a worm wheel, but a worm wheel cannog drive a worm gear).

Limited slip differentials use clutches to shift torque to the wheel with most traction. At the core, limited slip differentials are still open differentials, but both axles can be locked together with a clutch pack. The clutch has a certain amount of pre-load, which means there is always at least a static amount of cross torque between both axles, but the clutch engages harder with difference in rotational speed, and can do so in both torque directions (forward and reverse). If an LSD only engages under acceleration, it's called 1-way, if it engages under acceleration and partially under decceleration, it's called 1.5-way, if it engages fully in both acceleration and decceleration, it is called 2-way. The problem with LSDs on street cars is as follows: they require much more room to install because of the clutch pack, meaning it won't fit anything that isn't used in some major racing series, they have high pre-load, so they suck for slow driving in tight corners (imagine maneuvering in a parking lot with a welded differential), and if you have no racing experience you will lose control of your car if it is a 2-way differential. You also need special fluids for LSDs, and these fluids get abrasive overtime (because of the clutch material) and accelerate wear on the gears.

So the other realistic options for street cars is either torque vectoring using the brakes (the mclaren P1 does that), or using a torque biasing differential. Until the wavetrac came along, for us winter drivers, there was no point in putting in a quaiffe or torsen or whatever.

Fitment wise, wavetrac has a differential for the w210, which uses the same differential housing as the w202.

Installation wise, you remove the differential from the car, pull the internals out, move the pinion gear and ring gear to the wavetrac internals, and put the entire thing back into the stock housing, and put it back in the car. Basically wavetrac is only the inner part of the differential. They made it so to reduce cost and increase compatibility, since you are using the factory ring and pinion gears, the final drive ratio doesn't change.
 
#20 ·
Excellent write up Patman

It appears that if they marketing and advertisement hype is true.... this thing would be awesome for every application. Snow driving to all out road courses.

Cost is good, setup is pretty much standard practice, fits our cases with no mods, and has the ability to handle serious power with none of the bad habits.... welded diffs etc...

Only concern I have is the mods for bias... apparently they are using varying friction materials to accomplish the preloading instead of springs.... wondering what the lifespan is on these components. Although in theory it sounds great, and in my application it isn't going to matter that much. Almost anything is better than an open diff.

Ultimately I would like this car to be a sleeper, but do well in a sedan class at road America. If you've ever seen the one lap of America series, I would love to build something along the lines of "the green brick".

Basically build a car that does everything at the super car level, but be able to hop in and do a road trip with zero concerns... so a great all around package on a budget.

Went to a road course day at road America with one of our ER docs..... he was a pantera freak.... great day, met some nice folks....anyway some dude shows up in a 1990's 318 BMW, primer grey, rust at the wheel wells, duct taped #11 on the car. Watched as he unbolted and removed his back seat, pulled a cooler, tools, spare tire, jack, etc.... from the trunk and left it in a pile in the pits. He then proceeded to absolutely destroy every single lap time set down by several seconds:grin

Had owners of high 6 figure cars just hopping up and down as this lil beast dominated everything..... then He quietly collected his stuff, and drove the car home.... so freaking cool....

He was running a turbocharged LS1 crate motor and a highly tuned chassis... total $$$ was less than some of the other guys set of track tires and wheels. And he drove it wherever he wanted, this is what I want to do with the car.... have something that can put a real stomping on most everything, yet look stock. (For me I like a little more flash and less rat rod)

And by using basically a disposable car C220/280. I'm not going to have much concern about wrecking a limited production or extremely valuable vehicle. Basically have fun with it, and get groceries... I was surprised at how overbuilt the C220 is... should be the perfect sleeper to satisfy this itch... don't need to win, just want to be competitive without sacrificing day to day comfort.

Now back to dreaming....:grin
 
#21 ·
Thanks for the compliment :D I do have an engineering background, so I do understand the theories quite well.

There is one subtle difference between clutch type LSDs and torque biasing ones that I haven't explicitly mentionned in my previous post which is interesting. Torque biasing differentials "sense" torque to transfer torque between axles, whereas clutch-type LSDs "sense" difference in rotational velocities between the axles, and try to match their rotations by applying more clutch. This is interesting because it makes both types of differentials fundamentally different (in how they overcome traction issues). Just because there is a difference in rotational speed in a torque biasing differential doesn't mean necessarily mean any torque biasing is occuring. This is a surprising result at first, but makes sense if you think about it. The analogous comparison to LSDs is that even if 2 axles are locked together in rotation, it doesn't mean that there is a 50/50 torque split.

Differentials are brilliant devices, they probably rank as my second favorite of all automotive devices (automatic transmissions definetly number one).
 
#22 ·
My favourite is the 60°, DOHC, 5 valve/cylinder V12 engine. Followed closely by the co-axial counterrotating propeller pair:D

Clutch-type LSDs potentially hamper turning because they try to equalise the speed of the two wheels. The torque-biasing diff, by contrast, is only free when both wheels have sufficient torque for the pair of worm screws to drive the worm gear, otherwise it locks up. (Yes, I know there are more than on worm screw. But I generally speak on a "per mininum unit" basis.) Unfortunately, even the torque-biasing diff doesn't work when there is zero torque on one wheel. That's where WaveTrac comes in - it basically locks the diff by a dog clutch-type mechanism to ensure that torque is always sent at least to the wheel with the most traction.
 
#23 ·
Some potential donors....

https://eauclaire.craigslist.org/cto/6022061795.html 1999 s500, 160k miles for 2k... rust, peeling paint, scratches.


https://eauclaire.craigslist.org/cto/5957909009.html 1992 Sel500, 140k miles for best offer... reverse is gone. (I know I can get this car for 1K). Would not have the desired ignition system though.

https://janesville.craigslist.org/cto/6033556140.html. 1987 560 sel. Complete but non running. $ 500

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/cto/6013030016.html 1999 s500 125k miles, runs, $2k


Not really a candidate but"....

https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/cto/6032716435.html 01 s55 amg, 198k ...$4k

https://madison.craigslist.org/cto/6013259337.html. 93 s600 lorinser.... has been on forever....last price was 2500...103k miles

Most c220/280 cars are in the 800-1500 range.
Did find a "rare" c220 AMG edition.....:laugh.
 
#26 ·
guys, if I had all the spare time in the world, I'd be restoring all the W140s, W202s, and rennteching the pants off of R129s. Then I would keep them all to myself because I'd love them too much :D

It's sad to see such awesome cars in such bad shape, that Lorinser S600.....
 
#27 ·
Shhhhhhhhhh!

Wisconsin is a time capsule, I have lived all over the place (military---medical). It's the strangest place I have ever lived.

Now...rust belt does have an impact on vehicles here.... "minimal rust" means you can see the road while driving. "Rust issues" means something will fall off while driving, and "rusty" means you will fall out of the moving vehicle. It starts snowing in October, stops in April, and they salt every storm to the point deer lick the road...I'm not kidding.

Biggest impact is the demographic. About 99% of these cars are from Illinois, or "the cities"...(Minneapolis). Folks retire up here for the cheap land, incredible beauty, and basically drive slow and fish while they drink their remaining years away. Mostly polish folks up here, few Germanic influences farther south, but by and large the mean age is around 55.... very small towns, and a very....ahem "frugal minded" attitude.

Up here, Your mechanic is the dealership which is 200 miles away, and if the vehicle is not a 4x4 it's parked 6 months of the year. Also for reasons unknown, all stereotypes of the transplanted retiree from Chicago are HATED.... I mean it's incredible, a Chicago bears t shirt has started many many fights. The big fancy "Mersaydee Bends" is the crowning jewel of the freshly retired "FIB".

Now a pontoon boat, half sunk, no trailer, from 1974 with the nastiest lawn furniture nailed down to the rotten deck will bring no less than 5 grand and have a line 2 miles long to buy it. Don't get me started on snowmobiles....

So harsh weather, no 4x4, no real mechanics, no dealership support, and the "opinion" that the cars are impossible to work on and horribly expensive, coupled with a stereotype that will get your car vandalized (more than one of those cars have key marks) you cannot give them away. (Hell my c220 WAS given to me. :grin). Add on the inherent "wal-mart mentality of the locals and you get a goldmine.

Younger kids want Japanese or Audi, no exceptions. Guys want something to pull the boat with, women want a NEW 4x4 SUV... I am an enigma as I work on my own stuff and have an open mind...however I freely admit that my perception was I could not afford to maintain a Benz.

It is crazy.... that v12 Lorinser for 2500....that car had to be 6 figures in 1993 $... the 92 SEL has the presidential package and bulletproof glass.

I'm very fortunate to have a ton of low cost options.... You can't buy a running LS engine here for less than 4 grand.... but I can get a v12 rare super car for 2500.

I'm not complaining...I need a bigger garage :grin
 
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