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New member, new project, C220 lots of questions

13K views 181 replies 8 participants last post by  georgebuhr 
#1 ·
Hello all,

Recently picked up a 1995 C220 locally for free. Old owner was in the process of slowly fixing issues and got bored with it. I picked it up as a father/son project to have some good times and hopefully be a good learning experience.

I spent a good week combing over this site before I picked up the car and I'm impressed with the amount of knowledge here, loving the valuable resources and already saved money. Reason the car was free was the prev. Owner was positive it had thrown a rod because it rattled like a diesel.... 30 minutes here steered me to the belt tensioner shock, a bit of pressure on the shock with a stick and the rattle stopped immediately..... showed the owner but he insisted we take it anyway.

The good..... absolutely perfect interior....looks showroom new, body has 2 very minimal door dings, and some slight rusting in rear wheel arches and behind the front fenders, but in Wisconsin where the roads are literally made of salt, it's impressively well maintained. After we get the car running well it would be absolutely worth investing in minor rust repair as the other paint and body work are perfect. Under the hood looks pretty clean, trunk is perfect, etc.... brand new tires, brakes, shocks, glass is perfect and everything works. Also the owner installed a new engine wiring harness, so the big $$$ is all done.

I drove it home in 2 degree weather for 50 miles, 30 mph, some interstate at 70 (totally guessing as the speedo/odometer does not work.) no choice as that free price tag involved getting it out the door that day.... anyway several issues were apparent However the ride, steering and braking were excellent, quiet interior, no shakes or vibrations beyond the motor running awful. Transmission does shift with some serious authority but not rough, just very firm when colder. Engine temp hit 90 and stopped like a stone never fluctuating. CEL and SRS lights are on though.

The bad.... 179k miles on it (at least). CEL and SRS lights are on, speedo/odometer are not working, the outside temp display is super dim, not scrambled pixels in the LCD, just super low light (almost none). Engine ran ok at idle, started right up after sitting for several months. However once it warmed up wow.... has a huge delay/stumble from idle when in gear, very rough running at times like it was misfiring under load. However there were a few minutes on the highway at 2000 rpm it ran perfectly and had impressive power. No smoking, but using gas like crazy. Old gas was 87 octane, not sure if previous owner ever used premium fuel.

So, stopped by local parts store plugged reader under dash and got the following codes.
P0141- O2 sensor heater circuit.
P1700. ?
P0133- O2 sensor slow response
P0303- misfire cylinder 3
P0304- misfire cylinder 4
P0300- multiple cylinder misfire detected
P0505 Idle air circuit malfunction

The car nearly didn't start back up after driving for around an hour, very slow cranking, later that evening once I cleaned the garage for the impending tear down/inspection...just a selenoid click, dead battery. 10.7 volts present.

When stone cold the engine runs well, once it warms up it gets bad....shaking, surging, stoplights with the brakes applied it idled at 1100 rpm and really tries to push hard.

I pulled the plugs and plug wires, 1-3 looked old, tan and worn, #4 was completely black carbon and had a much tighter gap. Plug wires are Mercedes brand, but look very new.... but I cannot believe they were replaced by the prev. Owner, doubt he would spend the $. Small amount of oil around #1 plug recess, not down the hole, just puddled in the valve cover recess. Coils look original as they are slightly oxidized looking with peeling Bosch labels. Engine harness wires look brand new and shiny with new fittings, wrap insulation etc... way to clean to be original.

I'll attach some pics I've taken so far, and I look forward to your guidance on what is the logical way to proceed. Just want to say thanks in advance... the adventure begins!!
 

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#2 ·
Pics loaded upside down and no descriptions but you get the idea..

Pic 1 is the plugs
Pic 2 plug recess showing oil
Pic 3 is the throttle body? Showing a very heavy grease like sludge buildup I'm assuming pvc residue.... is that normal
Pic 4 is a sensor above bumper ahead of electric fans. Large wire has been cut, any idea what that controls?

Battery testing shows 13.2-14.4 volts to battery when running, no current draw detected when switched off (I checked every single fuse) battery slowly losing voltage over the last 2 days... I suspect an old battery that was undercharged and allowed to freeze. Haven't had time to pull it and have it checked.

My initial thoughts are new plugs, plug wires, coils, O2 sensors, good gasoline, and a cleaning of the throttle body and IAC. New battery and recheck codes. Also fix the tensioner shock. Any other immediate things that pop out at those with more experience?
 
#3 · (Edited)
Welcome to the forum! Glad you got yourself a C220. I myself brought a 1996 C220 back form the grave, it is the absolutely most fantastic ride once you get it running super well :D We just had a big discussion about the belt tensioner shock here, it does make quite a noise when it fails, but is indeed nothing serious. The m111 is a tank of an engine, expect ~250 000km in between top end work, and ~500 000km for bottom end work.

I hope I can answer some of your questions.

The instrument cluster can be repaired to get the speedometer working, it could be a bad stepper motor moving the needle. Some searching and testing will let you know what is wrong. If the LCDs work but they are dim, they just need a new light bulb! It's super easy to replace them. The easiest method of removing the cluster is by removing the left side tweeter and vent (which is also super easy) and you stick your hand behind the luster and push it out. This way is the only way not to damage the dashboard! Only tools needed are a screwdriver and maybe a precision tool to pry the tweeter out.

As for your engine problems. Don't worry about oil on the plug threads, or oil in the tubes, that's just an old spark tube seal, replace them next time you pull the valve cover off. Once the spark plugs are removed, it's good practice to just replace them, since they have a crush washer, and might not seal properly at the specced torque when reinstalling. Anyway, you should do as you said, new coils, wires, spark plugs, clean the TB and use high quality gasoline ONLY (get the highest octane your local name brand station has, and stick to it, your engine will love you for that). The last plug probably fouled up because of some combination of problems you already listed. IAC is built into the throttle body, more on that next paragraph. It might be a good idea to replace the MAF as well, and it's very important you get genuine/original sensors!!!! Cheaping out on sensors is not worth, it will only cause problems and could cause serious damage. The MAF is the most expensive sensor, it can be had for 200-300$ depending where you are. If you replace the front O2 sensor, also replace the rear, but be ready to bring your car to an exhaust shop, it is most likely seized in there solid, and they will have to drill it out and weld on a new bung.

The previous owner might have replaced the main harness, but do also check the ignition harness. It's a small harness that plugs into the main and it goes to the ignition coils, then grounds itself on the driver's side fender ground block. The ignition coils are a challenge to get to since they are mounted under the intake manifold and bolted from the top, but if you remove the manifold support bracket you can wiggle them out. Wire the ignition coils BEFORE you install them back under the manifold, if not, you won't be able to reach them. It costed me 20$ for a new ignition harness. Now, the throttle body harness has the same problem as the main harness, degrading wires, however that happens underneath the black sheathing, so it's an invisible problem. If the previous owner hasn't replaced the throttle body, then that's what's causing your problem. It is possible to rewire it, but honestly I bought an updated used one on eBay, and never had a problem since.

Battery, it's likely just old. I say just put in a new flooded-cell battery and be done with it. If you get a non-maintenance free one, just to be sure to take care of it and it will last a very long time.

Also, replace your OVP relay, that can cause some serious head aches trying to find a diagnosis when it goes bad, but it's neither expensive nor hard to replace, and the updated relay should last forever.

Transmission rough shifting, there can be multiple causes for that, most common is a vacuum leak to the vacuum modulator, but bad engine/transmission mounts can contribute. It's best to read up on some threads and proceed in an eliminating fashion. A transmission fluid change + new filter could help.

You should also replace all the fluids, incorrect fluids can cause a whole lot of issues. On a Mercedes, you have to be very mindful of the specification sheets. I've compiled a list of fluids/specs here: http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w202-c-class/2746786-comprehensive-w202-fluids-list.html

I hope I answered more or less everything :D

Enjoy your car, it's a very sweet ride once completed.
 
#4 ·
Thank you for your reply, yes you covered most of my questions... but created more..

So I am wondering where the best place to get the parts would be, you mentioned using quality sensors; I've seen prices all over the map for parts. Any suggestions on which brands to look for, or avoid. I saw Autohausz (sp?) mentioned several times in threads.

Initially going to do the plugs, wires, ignition harness, coils, OVP, tensioner shock and battery. recheck the codes and evaluate, might get lucky with the o2 sensor readings but I doubt it. Then most likely the TBI replacement and lastly the MAF...only because it is super easy to replace without redoing things, and its a bit $$. Full fluid/filter change is absolutely a part of getting it back to road ready so I didn't even mention it, and thank you for the fluid listing.

So new questions...

where did you get a $20 ignition harness?

where is this mythical manifold bracket that allows coil removal?

any tips or tricks to removing/replacing the tensioner shock?

any specific TBI replacements to look for? I don't want to replace the part with an equally crappy one, and 600 bucks is a chunk of change to shell out for a new one.

good company/brands of parts to buy.

parts/brands to avoid?

I'm sure that I'll have a lot more ? but I don't want to overload on my first dozen posts.
 
#5 ·
I found the ignition harness on eBay. You have to be extremely careful when shopping for parts on eBay, always take a close look at the descriptions, but it is a good place to find hard to use parts!

This mythical bracket is right under the intake manifold, it helps hold the heavy metal manifold up, it's a sort of Y shaped bracket. There are only 3 bolts holding it on, however they are EXTREMELY annoying to remove. With some socket U-joints and a flexible head ratchet you can get to all of them. But it will be a painfully slow process. There is also a an electrical connector bolted to it (wire from throttle body) which is very hard to remove because it uses 2 bolts with nuts to clamp to the bracket, but accessing both the front and rear of the connector to reach the bolt head and nut is very difficult in such a crammed place, but again, not impossible. Once you have it removed, do yourself a solid for the future, drill 2 new holes and thread them with a tap so you can simply screw in 2 bolts to hold the connector in place, without needing to rely on a nut, this will make future removal MUCH easier.

There was a DIY posted here by G-AMG (I think) on replacing the shock (and tensioner if needed), just search for it! It shouldn't be too deep in the forum.

I got my throttle body off eBay, it was used and costed me 200$. You have to look for an updated version, it will have a different part number. An quick way to tell is by looking at the pictures, if the part number is visible, then it's a good throttle body. The biodegradable wired ones' part numbers have been erased a long time ago from being exposed to engine heat, so no visible part number = no go!

Good brands are: Bosch, Lemforder, Corteco, Behr, or Genuine mercedes-benz. Between those 5, you will find 99% of what you need. Mercedes don't make most of their parts, so if the price for something is expensive, try to find what the original manufacturer was before MB put their sticker on it, you can usually get a good deal by getting the part right from the manufacturer. However, I've got extremely good deals at my local MB dealership, people are usually scared to go thinking that it will be expensive, but it's free to ask and sometimes they have way better prices than online retailers. There are good and bad dealerships though, so check out your closest one, if you get a good vibe it will be a good place to shop. I've also received high quality parts from Meyle, which is not something everyone might agree with, but whatever issues they use to have they have fixed, and they make good parts now. Keep in mind no company is immune to the occasional production defect, and if you get a bad part, the good places/brands will do everything to make sure you receive what you need. Febi is basically a reboxer, so it's a little more hit or miss but you can use them in a pinch.

Good online parts places are: FCPEuro and Autohausaz. If you need suspension parts, ECSTuning has got everything and everything else.

Brand to avoid at all cost: URO.
 
#7 ·
All great things to know, and every company can have issues from time to time, but an overall opinion/reputation takes time to create.... I trust the experiences of the board.

So more progress..... coil removal. I did it differently I guess but it took 45 minutes total. I removed the windshield washer tank, the TBI and went at it. 4 bolts were ok to remove with the throttle body out of the way. Washer Tank removed allowed enough room to wiggle the coils out, flipped them over and labeled the wires. Coil wiring harness looks really good, but has a part # sticker dated 08/01/1995.... dunno if it needs replacing.

I got curious and measured resistance on the plug wires.... 1-3 gave readings of 1650-1720 ohms.... #4 wire 7800... may not have needed to pull the coils, but hard to say what caused that wire to decay internally and the piece of mind crossing potential issues off the list is worth the 120 bucks for 2 coils. And I'm halfway done anyway, might as well install new difficult to access parts rather than gamble.

TBI.... I was hoping for a bit of luck....nope. Cannot believe the car even started let alone run. Pics included of the carnage. Have to say thank you as the appearance was perfect, never would have thought to check inside the outer cover of the wiring.
 

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#8 ·
The w202 is often under appreciated but it is built like a tank and can take a hell of a lot of abuse.

When I replaced my harness, I also put in new ignition coils and new spark plug wires. It was like driving a brand new car afterwards (apart from a bad fuel injector plug, which a little bit of glue has fixed).

If you remove the spark plugs, it's best to replace them, because they have a crush washer on them and might not seal right once removed. A new set costs 5$ anyway. The correct plug is Bosch F8DC4, and NOT FR8DC4. The R has a built in resistor, which we don't need because our wires have a resistor already, so you will get a much weaker spark with an R. It's also generally accepted that our engines need good old copper plugs, not the fancy exotic fine wire plugs.
 
#10 ·
The w202 is often under appreciated but it is built like a tank and can take a hell of a lot of abuse.
Combining the build quality of the W124 with the design philosophy of the W126; re-introducing the double wishbone front suspension of the W123 and W126 with the 5-link rear suspension of the W201 and W124.:thumbsup:

Too bad they initially installed the electrics of an Alfa Romeo and the paint job of a Toyota:frown
 
#9 ·
From my limited experience with MB and this car, I agree with you. Very solid feeling even running like crap and neglected. What's interesting is the engine is then only thing wrong with the car, and 99% of the issues I'm fixing were from neglect and poor maintenance.

Ordered plugs (correct ones thank you) plug wires, ovp relay, coils, and tensioner shock. Tore into the TBI to evaluate if I could rewire it, I think it may be beyond my skill set. I have nothing to lose though so I may try down the road, can't figure out how to split the plug to access the pins. A new TBI is 540.... most likely I'll buy that and be done with it.

I did verify the wiring harness has been replaced, but found something else which may or may not be an issue. In front of the motor under the black plastic cover is a vacuum sensor/relay... has bare fittings, no idea what should be attached...any ideas?

Top fitting looks like what the clear vacuum hose plugs into, bottom fitting is a bare barbed deal..
 

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#11 ·
This is my first exposure to the MB brand, but I've literally spent years wrenching on various projects and have built/restored some cool stuff. When this project first popped up I was looking for something cheap and safe, that would be reliable and not to much car for a 16 yr old. Also wanted a project so I could "teach" some of the basics, and hopefully pass down a bit of knowledge.

With the exception of the insane wiring choice, I got a lot more car than I expected. Considering that even 4-5 year old cars here rust away into rolling blocks of Swiss cheese, body is not bad at all. Wiring is replaced, problem solved... now the rest of the issues are what I consider maintainence and normal wear.

The odds of finding a 22 year old vehicle that has great compression, a firm solid transmission, doors that close like a bank vault, no wind noise, perfect interior, fully independent front and rear suspension, ton of safety features that still work, and honestly styling that is kinda distinctive yet not dated... it's impressive.

It also gives me enough confidence to invest some time and money into it, as the end result will actually be a damn nice car that will run for a long time. So far every issue has been either a direct result of the wiring choice, or a part that is way overdue to be replaced as a normal part of keeping anything running well. Plugs, wires, coils, a sensor or 2.... fluid change. That's going to be normal for any vehicle, I'm just surprised at how well the car has held up, and how simple and well built it is.

Actually I'm already searching for another one to have some fun with. Got an LS1 drivetrain, wiring, etc..... thinking slightly larger tires/wheels, much larger brakes, drop the suspension 1/2" stiffen up the suspension/body a touch, toss in a 450hp v8 that actually weighs less than the stock 2.8 that has 2 extra gears... would be quite the surprise for the BMW and CTSV crowd. But that's a different thread. :grin

Now back to the budget build.... any idea what that sensor is or where to get a diagram.
 
#13 ·
I was exactly in your position 3 years ago. It was frustrating at times, but I promise you it is worth it in the end. It just simply a perfect car.

Just a word of advice, I know LS1 swaps are pretty popular, but you can get Mercedes V8s for next to nothing, and as far as fitting goes, you just drop it in, and you only have to worry about electronics. You can get a used 5.0 V8 for about 2000$, put in about 500$ worth of parts and machining, and you've got an engine that will leave all LS swaps in the dust. But as you said, another thread for another day.

Plane, I don't know about your south african electrics, but over here they've been just as solid as the rest of the car. Same goes for the paint, people's jaw's drop when they see the paint on my car, and it's not anywhere near perfect (by my standards, which I'll admit, even supercars fails to meet them).
 
#16 ·
What I've "discovered" regarding the rust and issues so far with this car vs others echoes what you both have said. I'm finding that overall it's a very well built car with a couple quirks... but nothing beyond my capability.

Just some basic observations from a guy that has spent the last 25 years driving nearly everything everywhere, but new to MB.... I've owned/driven some real junk, some really nice collector cars, and truly enjoy cars in general. I do 99% of my own work because I like it, and I'm a cheap sob. having said that, I do appreciate several things about this vehicle and have noticed in the short time I've been playing with it a lot of subtle details that have me excited.

Fit and finish.... paint is really quite good (remember this car is 22 years old, and spent it's life 200 miles from the closest dealership....which is important, more on that later). Yes it has some rust, but compared to everything else here, it absolutely has held up 1000x better. I have a 2004 vehicle that had more rust issues than this car, fixing those required new bedsides due to a factory design flaw... it literally was designed to trap water and salt. The doors, hood, trunk all open/close and seal better than new cars do, its hard to describe but they have a solid well made feel to it, if the simple act of closing a door gives you confidence (and you even notice it) that is impressive.

Overall design.... like most of the MB lineup, I couldn't tell you what year it was, it doesn't look dated, it's has its own unique style that retains its perceived value (to me). Again fit and finish are quite good especially for a car that is over 2 decades old, realize that for 5 months out of the year it is driving on salt....literally corrosive roadways. To hold up this well again is impressive to say the least.

Drivetrain.... to me this is where I was surprised... the rear suspension MB put into a 4 cylinder car and their cheaper model at that just blows my mind, front is equally nice, handling was great, braking was good.... and this perception is from just a 50 mile drive running poorly. Couple weeks from now when it is running perfect I cannot wait to give it a nice shakedown. The engine seems like a tank, designed well, easy to work on, built to be precise and yet simple. Having spent a lot of time under the hood of hundreds of cars, it's easy to notice it was intended to last. (And that hood hinge allowing 90 degree access.... totally in love, only my jeeps had better access.).

Interior is beyond nice... previous owners did a wonderful job keeping it perfect, only the radio is non factory and it all looks new. In a 22 yr old car that never happens here. Again that salt gets in, and ruins everything. It's quite, comfortable, roomy for such a small car, and it "feels" expensive.

Big a$$ bonus...... this is what has me truly excited. That lack of a dealership even remotely close has caused a geographical anomaly. The cars hold up very well...were built to be abused and survive, and for the most part northern Wisconsin is a very very rural slow paced location. Meaning they are Dirt cheap. I mean just obscenely cheap for what you get. I touched on a LS swap earlier as a possible project and decided to look at other models just for fun.... I found half a dozen cars under $1000, 2 dozen under $3000.... v12, v8, AMG models are here for a little more.... if you can turn a wrench, have the tools and space, and are willing to accept that a very high quality precision part will cost more, then these things are literally a gold mine. I can get a 120,000 mile v8 car for less than a rotted out Ford Explorer on its very last mile. I never looked at MB before... I always assumed they were too expensive, and yes parts are $$$. But considering the quality of the rest of the vehicle... investing a few bucks into it is so much more worth it.
 
#17 · (Edited)
And don't forget, the 120 000 mile v8 MB has still got another 120 000 miles to go before it will need any work. I'm glad we have another passionate member here, because those that aren't are really missing out.

I got to drive my C220 the other day before the huge snow storm hit, it was good fun


It's true that most people will shy away from an MB because of the perceived cost, but even if you don'f have the tools and the space and the time, the maintenance cost is only marginally more.

And the W202 does have its own very unique style, I find it blends classic looks with modern lines just right, making it look timeless. The modern agressive styling that every car has is already a fading trend, and it will one day look old, our cars however, never will.
 
#19 ·
Well, I'm passionate about cars in general.... not much of a loyal purist. Generally the engineering and design appeal more to me than brand name. My first real employment at the impressionable age of 16 was in a local "race car fab shop". We hacked, chopped up cars for dirt tracks, built full blown chassis for sprint cars, re powered and engineered drag cars, built a few pro street show cars, and generally did everything from lift kits on jeeps, to building twin turbo alcohol fueled pulling rigs. In general I was ruined at an early age:grin

I've often found that my desires were either far beyond my budget, or just so impractical that the end result was totally useless and zero fun to drive. I have a "project" stuffed in the back corner of the garage that does nothing but turn rear tires into smoke, and keeps you busy watching the gauges every second till it overheats. I learned a long time ago that weight and design trumps brute horsepower in terms of a car that will actually be enjoyable to drive longer than ten minutes.

Ironically this exposure into the benz world was absolutely by accident, was looking for a safe car to "fix up" for my 16 year old and hopefully get him started into the hobby. But when I was 16 "cool cars" had 2 doors, loud thirsty motors, giant hood scoops and graphics. Today's kids want sedans and good mpg. They also have zero interest usually in doing any work themselves which is a shame....trying to teach that last point. We started with a mint condition Chrysler Lebaron, but as we spent more time digging into it... even after we had it running well....it still was a crappy k car not worth the $ we put into it.

The gold 220 was the last thing on my mind, we were looking at a brutally rear ended/totaled Subaru STI as a drivetrain donor for a home built Ariel Atom clone.... If the Benz wasn't just to good to pass up I would have never given it a seconds thought. I have to say this forum has been 100% accurate so far with information, and I'm looking forward to many years of fun. So far this has been truly simple and fun to do, and we both cannot wait to get the car back up and running well.

Once I can get it out of the dimly lit garage I'll post some pics.
 
#18 ·
So more questions, less gushing.

Once the big brown truck of fun arrives, I will have replaced the plugs, coils, coil harness, plug wires, ovp relay, tensioner shock and sep. belt, changed oil, filters. Once I have everything buttoned up and new TB in place I can assess again.

I plan on probably replacing both o2 sensors and possibly the MAF.... however I got zero codes for that on the initial scan. O2 sensor readings were possibly caused by the TB or misfiring...

Questions....

1. is there a quick way to assess if the MAF sensor is functioning, or is it a $200 guess?
2. Am I getting all the codes on the parts store free scan... I'm seeing lots of questions regarding scanners, home built blink code readers, paper clip jumpers from the big Mercedes under hood connection etc.... what's the best way to access the stored codes, and I would love to get real time data and snapshots of the data... anything available to drive around with a laptop running and capture/analyze.... would be a ton easier to assess what's going on. And again nearest decent dealer is a 4 hr drive. "Honest Bob's fourin car fixit shack" isn't going to cut it.
3. Found a couple more W202 cars... one has a mint body and interior, but the motor is way gone...(smoking blue fog, and over 300K)... other is a dead diesel but mint body. And a couple wrecked 430/500 cars that still run well. You mentioned that the 5.0 swap is almost a bolt in. Are the bellhousings/tranny universal across the board? meaning can I swap any MB motor in?
4. I realize that this is the C class w202 area, but was wondering since I'm finding early 90's to 2003 cars... are there any other well known issues to avoid ( like the self destructing wire harness). Couple 230 Kompressor cars have my eye, a 92 500sel, and a few 430 cars in my area that are all within 2-300$ of each other.
 
#20 ·
As far as your MAF goes, I would suggest scanning for codes. If it doesnt have any, after replacing the parts you allready bought, get the codes cleared, and at the same time and seperately, reset the memory on the ECU. I think I was able to accomplish this on a snap on scan tool by going into generic OBD2, and there was a section under the engine for resetting it. This clears the memory and lets the ECU relearn the fuel adaption numbers quicker than if you did nothing. It will do it anyway over time, but this gets you there quicker.
 
#21 · (Edited)
As for the maf guess, once you replace the O2 sensors run the car for a little while, if the long term fuel trim is either 0 or extremely close to 0, you know the maf is working fine.

There are tons of information that nothing other than SDS (the dealership system) can access, however what you can with the OBD2 port with a decent scanner should be sufficient.

The climate control unit can be used to read various sensor data and it has its own fault diagnostic system which is very useful when diagnosing climate control problems. To access the sensor information, with key on and engine on or off, press and hold rest until 01 flashes on the display. Each sensor has a 2 digit code, and the next number that flashes is the actual sensor value. There are plenty of threads as to which sensor code is what. To access the diagnostic system, set temperature to LO, switch key off, then switch key to on (engine off), and press and hold windshield demist and recirculate at the same time, the system will shut off and enter diagnostic mode. To cycle between fault codes (which are also described in plenty of threads), press auto, it will cycle through all of them. When you land on DEL, you can press and hold temp up and temp down to clear all the codes. To exit diagnostic mode, just cycle the ignition again. This might come in handy in summer when trying to get AC to work.

On the topic of the AC, the w202 uses a variable displacement compressor, which is designed to always be on, including in winter. This keeps the compressor shaft lubricated, extending its life big time.

On the topic of engine swaps. Most parts from these ages were pretty universal. The m119 motor had a larger bellhousing and larger TC, but all MB engines of this time period were 8 bolt flexplate to crankshaft and 6 bolt TC to flexplate, so you could just mix and match parts until everything fits together. Doing an MB engine swap is easy as long as you will run a custom ECM if you are talking about 1996+ cars, but I'd recommend using a custom ECM even in prior model years. Usually the way it goes with MB is that physically everything bolts right up, but electronically it would be impossible (unless custom ECM).
 
#23 · (Edited)
well any ECM with DAS V2 or higher wouldn't work, because of DAS. Even if you could somehow bypass that (by swapping, the DAS module, ignition switch, all the locks etc.), why wouldn't you go with a tuning friendly modern custom ECM. You could have: individual cylinder spark/fuel trims, instant connectivity and tuneability to whatever laptop you own, coil-on-plug ignition, maximum power could be switched to max fuel economy at the touch of a button and the list goes on. You could make a bombastic tune out of whatever engine you put in.
 
#24 ·
Cost for one. And unless you are making a real beast, there is no need when you are going from a 4 to an 8. And with it being a 95, isnt it simpler to marry the two due to the DAS being more simplistic? I dont really know because I've never researched it, but I've always heard on here that the more complicated DAS starts around 96/97, is that correct?

Then again, what it all boils down to, is that whenever you look at the cost of a swap vs. just finding a used V8 car, the V8 car is always going to win out. Its allready built, and you have the bonus of brakes, suspension, and exhaust being allready upgraded.
 
#25 ·
I don't think cost should be discussed when it comes to doing an engine swap in a mercedes. Cost-wise there will never be a good reason to do an engine swap because there will always be a cheap E420/430, S500 or whatever you want that is fast. I think the only reason to do a swap is for the fun of it, or for the technical challenge, or to create something unique. The only reason I'm suggesting to do another MB engine swap rather than an LS or whatever is because physically it will be just about bolting on parts, no need to cut the frame or weld anything. Heck, the M120 V12 could probably just be dropped into a W202 with no modification at all. It's narrower than an M113 (and doesn't weigh terribly much more, it's all-aluminium) and is just as long as an M104, and both those engines fit in the W202. You don't even need to worry too much about which transmission to use, you can use a 4G-tronic and pick and choose some parts until it fits (bellhousing + TC namely) or you could use a 5g-tronic with a standalone TCM made for the NAG1 (which is the exact same transmission, just in chrysler terms).

In a 1995 car, all you would need to do is swap the ECM and engine harness over, no other modifications necessary. The 95 ECMs received received an "ok" signal over the CAN bus from the DAS module allowing the engine to start. Starting 1996 with DAS v2, the ECM checks if the DAS module that sent the signal is VIN matched to itself, if not, then no-go. In 1997 DAS v3 was introduced with the smart key, and although it was a more complicated security system, there is a way of swapping the ECM into a non-VIN matching car and making it work, but I think for theft reasons I will keep that method to myself, unless some trusted member on the site PMs. This method would work for any Bosch ME-SFI 2.0 cars, so basically any MB from 1997 up to 2000ish.

I've actually done a fair amount of research into this topic, and one day I'll have the resources to do such a swap for fun. I did however come to the conclusion that the best option when doing a swap (again, assuming such a project is undertaken for fun, or to learn about cars, or to create something unique, without cost as a major factor) would be to run a custom ECM. If you want to go for max power, a custom ECM will let you do that, and with much more freedom than trying to get HFM-SFI or ME-SFI to work for you.
 
#26 ·
First of the parts have arrived... looking forward to some time off to play.

Thank you for all the responses so far, keep them coming. I am sure to have more questions as we get closer.

Regarding swaps, and the w202 specifically...I'll eventually get a handle on what exactly I want to do, and start another thread. This one is for the revival of the neglected lil 220 and just the basic intro into MB in general, but I at least want to offer my thoughts on the future swap.... oh there will be one :devil

When I look at a potential vehicle to modify, I define right off the bat what I want it to eventually be, saves time and $. And I usually attempt to keep the project inline with what's within my capabilities....that takes research. So from my limited amount of time with the w202 chassis I see several positives.

1. It's a sturdy frame and a solid car, very nicely appointed and was built for sustained speeds. Suspension lends itself to handling well, and a lot of cross platform parts allow "swapping" higher performance items into the chassis as a bolt on, or with minimal fabrication.

2. Fairly simple electronics, mechanical throttle linkage, lots of room under the hood, rear wheel drive, compact steering assembly, and in general car is overbuilt.

3. nice classic styling that is timeless, nothing horribly dated, and end result will be a very nice car to enjoy...on the same token, parts are available, not super expensive, and the c220/280 is not a rare or highly sought after vehicle....(cheap to buy, nobody is going to care if its modified)

Now the why..... most folks would simply buy a more powerful car, nothing wrong with that at all, but I enjoy the challenge, and more importantly I like to modify things that appear to be factory. You also get into some very unique benefits that would either cost a fortune, or be beyond what a manufacturer is willing to do for the price point of the vehicle. Also cars 22 years ago were not very powerful to begin with, without a tremendous price tag and upkeep.

Near as I can tell, the W202 weighs around 3200-3400 lbs. most of the larger sedans with v 8 motors hovered around 4500-5000. so let's assume that's an even 1000 lb wt savings right out of the gate. If I were making 147 peak horsepower stock, and swapped in a 350 hp v8 I create a new set of numbers that I could not duplicate with a larger car. Stock power to wt. ratio would be 23.8 lbs per hp. Swapped the number would be a very quick 10lbs per hp. Compare that with 12.8 ratio of the heavier car...I'm already 20% ahead.

But nobody drives around at full throttle, however the hp increase is going to be VERY evident at every speed, and that 1000 lb wt reduction will contribute to better braking and handling than the larger sedan would deliver. Swapping a set of bigger brakes, better tires and suspension pieces designed for handling, would bring it even closer to a true 1G experience. Check out the ariel atom for more thoughts on the effectiveness of designing for power to wt ratios rather than brute hp.

That swapped V8 is operating perfectly fine as intended putting out a reliable 350-400 hp..with no real weight increase over the stock motor, I'm not going to be driving 170 mph....but the car probably would be fine and very solid within its design envelope of 130.....not doing that much either.

I would totally do a custom ECU for two reasons, ease of use, and ease of future modifications. Let's say that 350-400 hp didn't scratch the itch... want a turbo??? Dial it in. Want a custom fuel map for highway economy...dial it in. Want to swap in a different motor down the road..... plug it in and go.

Finally cost... no good way to justify it, but building your own super car for a fraction of the price is satisfying. Blowing the doors off a 100 grand car with your antique plated 4 door base model Mercedes is hard to quantify in price. :grin
 
#27 ·
FWIW: One of my favourite engines (and one of very few V8s I like) is the MB M119 5.0lt. If I were to swap in an engine into a W202, it would be this one.

So, according to Auto Data:

The W140 S280, powered by the M104, has a mass of 1890kg, or1460lb.
The W140 S500, powered by the M119, has a mass off 2000kg, or 4400lb.

The W202 C280, powered by te M104, has a mass of 1490kg, or 3280lb. (I am going to assume that it is with an auto 'box; my diesel has a manual 'box and a heavy engine, and it weighs 1450kg.)

Which means that a M119-powered W202 should weigh about 1600kg. The M119 has 240kW as used in the W140 and R129, giving a power:mass ratio of 150W/kg - an increase of 54% over the C280!

Combine that with the fact that, with tall gearing, the M119 isn't all that thirsty at highway speeds.

Still, too bad it's not a diesel...
 
#28 ·
One day I'll get a diesel to play with too. I have a 6b Cummins in my truck, fuel mileage is over 21 mpg. It's been slightly modified with a larger turbo, air intake, stainless exhaust, larger injectors, and "stacked" electronics. Also added a larger fuel pump and gauges to monitor the motor better.

On a chassis dyno the combo made 431 hp and 973 lb ft. Of torque at the rear wheels. One thing I truly enjoy is the ability to dial in the desired level of power.... if I have a foot of snow on the road, set it to stock with a boost retard, sitting at the light next to a teenager in a Honda with a 5 foot wing and a fart can.... :devil

Amazing that a 8200 lb vehicle with the aerodynamic qualities of your average elementary school can set you back in the seat with authority...and keep pulling all the way through top gear.

Huge fan of diesels.... silly amount of power, great mpg, long service life...they're just heavy.
 
#30 ·
The duramax is the hot rod of the diesels, and a decent tranny also. If I had it to do over again, I would get one of those instead of the dodge/Cummins... however not at all "deprived" they can be ridiculously quick. Only complaint is brakes and overall weight... you cannot stop or turn a freight train like a sports car even if it will accelerate like one.

Back to benz.... made a couple calls, choices of a custom ecu are limited, but the M119, the M113, and the M120 all have fairly simple requirements regarding management on the custom side of things. I believe that the weight, cooling requirements, and overall packaging of the 120 (not to mention parts availability and cost) rule that option out. Checking on other" packages" but initial cost becomes an issue as you go newer...(remember I do have an LS1 sitting in the corner).

I think for simplicity, I'll start a new thread detailing all the fun of a v8 swap... this one on the 220 rehab is getting way off topic and would be hard to use for others. And I'm the worst offender at derailing my own threads....stupid ADD....
 
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