wishing for a hybrid ML

[DelJ]

The big economy advantage of a hybrid is in stop and go city driving, which is what most of us do most of the time. Quoting highway mileage misses the whole point of having a hybrid.

Hybrids also offer the advantage of very little wearing of the brakes as most of the braking is regenerative.

There is one adavantage for diesels : they make so much noise that you never have to use the horn.... :-)

DelJ

Wolfgang - 3/25/2005 10:36 AM

And diesel fuel economy is better: The E320 CDI gets 38 MPG on the highway, the RX400h only 26 MPG.

[Wolfgang]

DelJ - 3/25/2005 5:59 PM
The big economy advantage of a hybrid is in stop and go city driving...

DelJ, just came across this article evaluating the hybrid bus program which may be of interest. They are mainly used in city stop and go.

http://www.energybulletin.net/3789.html

Re. Diesels. Try one of the newer MB CDIs. No noticeable noise difference once warmed up.

[GregW / Oregon]

Wolfgang - 3/25/2005 5:14 PM

Greg, Lexus gives 7.3 seconds for the 0-60. The ML320 CDI is 8.6 0-100 km/h, and should be a little less for the 0-60, so it's probably closer than a two seconds difference. City fuel economy is probably better in the Lexus, but on the highway the ML320 CDI has the advantage.

Well, the numbers depend upon where you look, I guess. From GCF reprint of M-B press release they claim 9.4a 0-62:

From Auntomobile Magaxine online -
Press the pedal to engage the full piston-electric team, and you're whisked to 60 mph in 7.2 seconds, only 0.7 second slower than a Cadillac SRX V-8.

From German Car Fans reprint of M-B press release http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cf...ercedes/1.html -

ML 280 CDI : ML 320 CDI : ML 350 : ML 500

Output
140 kW/190 hp : 165 kW/224 hp : 200 kW/272 hp : 225 kW/306 hp

Max. torque at rpm
440 Nm (1400-2800 rpm) : 510 Nm (1600-2800 rpm) : 350 Nm (2400-5000 rpm) : 460 Nm (2700-4750 rpm)

0–100 km/h
10.4 s : 9.4 s : 8.4 s : 6.9 s

Max. speed
200 km/h : 210 km/h : 215 km/h : 235 km/h

Fuel consumption*
9.4 l/100 km : 9.4 l/100 km : 11.5 l/100 km : 13.1/100 km

But, I just found your 8.6 time here:

http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/...echnische.html

[Drew]

DelJ - 3/25/2005 5:59 PM

Hybrids also offer the advantage of very little wearing of the brakes as most of the braking is regenerative.

I believe you are a bit mistaken here. The brakes wear down the same as a regular car, however the car utilises the potential energy from slowing down to build up the battery life.

There is one adavantage for diesels : they make so much noise that you never have to use the horn.... :-)

As Wolfgang said, you may wish to experience an E320CDI sometime in the near future. I had one for a week for a review and it's so quiet inside that most of my family and friends had no idea that it was a diesel. From the outside, there is only some clatter when cold. After the warmup, it is quite and nowhere close to the noise that you hear from diesel pickup trucks. That is old old diesel technology.

[Wolfgang]

GregW / Oregon - 3/25/2005 8:51 PM
Well, the numbers depend upon where you look, I guess. From GCF reprint of M-B press release they claim 9.4 0-62:

Greg, the Mercedes-Benz press release dated 9/1/2005 giving 9.4 seconds was most likely in error. The correct number for the ML320 CDI is 8.6 seconds. Not sure if MB intentionally misled us or the competition, but it wouldn't be the first time they pulled something like this. [:)]

[From Oz]

Anyone can find me again this analysis, that the diesel was most efficient than hybird, counting the energy used to generate the electric charging power ?. Perception plays most part with the diesel first blow of black smoke, I always felt the same, til I did some research .. Looks like invisible smoke is the worst of all.

Did not try this in a car, but takeoff in electric trams is amazing, so assume the same with hybird cars, nevertheless, tried the takeoff with the X5 diesel, and behold, the sales girl was in the carpet. Tram was left in the dust.

Anyone tested the 320 CDI so far ?

[DelJ]

I am not mistaken! Hybrids work by recapturing the kinetic energy of the vehicle during much of the braking and stores this energy for subsequent propulsion. It is not necessary for the brake pads to be touching the rotors during regenerative braking, in fact this would undermine the advantage of a hybrid vehicle.

In actual use there will be a combination of mostly regenerative and some conventional braking. I wouldn't be surprised if the brake pads lasted over 100,000 miles and the rotors the life of the vehicle.

DelJ



[quote]Drew - 3/25/2005 9:22 PM
I believe you are a bit mistaken here. The brakes wear down the same as a regular car, however the car utilises the potential energy from slowing down to build up the battery life.

[DelJ]

The General Motors 'hybrid' system is a very limited (lame) attempt on their part. Their own predictions on the upcoming GM hybrid products show very modest improvements, similar to what was achieved by the Seattle buses. I suspect that some marketing hype got out of hand in the Seattle case. The Toyota and Ford systems are much more effective.

You can read about how limited the GM hybrids are in this article:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/05gmhybrid.htm

Don't expect GM to ever lead the way.

DelJ





[quote]Wolfgang - 3/25/2005 6:44 PM

DelJ, just came across this article evaluating the hybrid bus program which may be of interest. They are mainly used in city stop and go.

http://www.energybulletin.net/3789.html

[Wolfgang]

DelJ - 3/26/2005 8:36 AM
You can read about how limited the GM hybrids are in this article:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/05gmhybrid.htm

DelJ, the above is the GM integrated starter alternator damper (ISAD) system supplied by Conti-Teves. It's a mild hybrid first offered on the 2003 GMC Sierra and saves up tp 15% depending on driving cycle. <a href="http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/cas/cas/themes/products/electric_drives/hybrid_drives/overview_hybrid_drives_en.html"> more ISAD info</a>

The ISAD system has nothing to do with the full-hybrid Allison P1/2 Electric Drive, which according to DaimlerChrysler/Mercedes research promises to be very effective incl on the highway. Should be interesting once it becomes available in about 2007.

[Drew]

DelJ - 3/26/2005 8:28 AM

I am not mistaken! Hybrids work by recapturing the kinetic energy of the vehicle during much of the braking and stores this energy for subsequent propulsion. It is not necessary for the brake pads to be touching the rotors during regenerative braking, in fact this would undermine the advantage of a hybrid vehicle.

It is true that regenerative braking does not require that the foot brake be depressed as it is active whenever the throttle pedal is released. However it is only used when coasting to a stop and does not slow down the vehicle that much at all. What simply happens is that the vehicle does not freewheel quite as readily as a regular non-hybrid vehicle. The motor which is ordinarily used to power the drive wheels simply reverses its function and becomes a generator. The brakes still do need to be used as usual as the motor/generator does not provide <i>that</i> much resistance.