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Sobering thoughts

9K views 87 replies 27 participants last post by  Rocknme 
#1 ·
I recently put 200 miles on a rented Toyota RAV4 while on a business trip and couldn't help but notice how nice (and large) this vehicle has become, and then I was absolutely floored when I filled up the tank. I averaged 26 mpg on regular gas! Compare that to my usual 15 mpg on premium gas in my ML430, and one is looking at cutting fuel costs in half. When I returned home I was suddenly not so sure that I had returned to the superior vehicle as my ML suddenly felt heavy and sluggish. A V8 isn't supposed to feel sluggish after driving a 4-cylinder! (From what I have read the V6 RAV4 would have no trouble embarrassing the typical V8 ML).

To rub salt in the wound I looked up the fair market value of my beloved ML430: only about US$5K. Ouch!

I will continue to drive the ML for now as everything is in good condition, but I will definitely think twice before sinking any serious cash into the ML in the future. Time to start looking around, and I will definitely not be looking at any heavy V8 vehicles anymore. The future is the new efficient SUVs.

DelJ
 
#46 ·
The new Camrys are definitely nice rides, and its good to hear your doing well with it. But we were discussing the "it" factor and style. I just think its contradictive to say a car is too old to be stylish, especially a timeless example of style, such as an AMG benz, and even more so when your example to prove that is one that is what it is due to its economy . It is difficult to discuss style in a subjective manner, but automobiles are one area where age doesnt make it any less cool, in fact the contrary.
 
#48 ·
I do agree that old cars can be stylish, but I don't think the W163 is one of those vehicles. Sure a newer, clean, well-kept one can look really nice, but the ML won't be one of those typical "classics." It was a huge black eye for Mercedes and frankly looks like a minivan in certain angles.

It will never reach classic, stylish, retro, cool status like the G-Wagen is today. Not even close.
 
#47 ·
having had a number of new cars.. somehow i have gotten to the point where i find it tacky... I much prefer cars with a little age. Love both my 99's they have charm that a new car just doesn't (for me). As much as I love the c63 for example, i would still feel like a db driving one for at least another 5 years. This car stuff is so subjective, lol.
 
#49 ·
I'm not sure this will help. I owned a 430. It never became an old friend. The only thing that was great about it is all of the great things we did with it--things you could never do with a RAV4. And, I replaced it with a ML500 that is the best car I've ever owned and it takes Porsches off the line just driving it normally. All that aside, the 430 is a 5,000 pound car and your family will survive about any accident you can throw at it, and it tows 5,000 lbs, and you can pass a car on a two lane freeway like it was standing still and you could cruise at 120 on a German autobahn without risking your life.
 
#50 · (Edited)
Your telling me you would rather roll up somewhere in a prius, then jump out of a mint, modded ML55 AMG, with big wheels, and a rumbling, muscular sounding exhaust? Im not talking a beat up 98 320 with the plastic trim on the bottom now. Trying doing 120 in a 10 year old chevy volt and having it feel solid as rock. It just wouldnt happen. Ive had new cars, old cars, domestic, foreign, etc etc, and I like my current ride best, and it was the only one I wanted to keep forever. Sure, it can be a money pit, but like I said, I didnt buy it to get from point a to point b or haul kids to soccer practice. Its no more of a money pit then any other car ive fallen in love with and wanted to spend money on. I said this earlier though, Im biased because Im an auto enthusiast, not just an average joe who wants something cheap and reliable. I gotta admit, sounds like some of you guys are old guys, or nerds, no offense, as I think I may be a litle of both but not a lot of either lol.
 
#51 ·
I read all of your comments and i completely agree with u.If gas is the problem then they should take a bus or a train lol.If you buy a mercedes or any german or british car like range rover or jaguar you dont buy them for the gas mpg because this cars are not built for fuel economy but for performance luxury safety and technology they offer.These cars have presence they are not just some transportation thing like toyota or any other japanise asian cars even american cars they just there to take u from point A to B without feeling nothing in between the only way i can own or drive one of them is if i put a box over my head so no one can see its me in that car lol.And the 1998 ML320 was the best of its time.My dad drives an Mercedes S-class and so far its the best car iv ever driven.
 
#53 ·
All it takes is money.

"Ideologies like this are what keep technology and science from advancement. There's absolutely no reason that an SUV or truck can't be efficient."

What keeps technology and science from "advancing," if by advancing you mean being more widely accepted, is cost. Those modern diesels are VERY expensive and no more reliable, if as reliable, and long-lasting than gasoline engines, as well as much more expensive to repair. I did the math on converting my charter boat to diesels and the math was that you could buy one Helluva lot of gas and rebuilt Chevy small blocks for the price of those diesels. Most people are buying a vehicle to get them from home to work and shopping and their appointments; the Sunday drive and the driving vacation are a thing of the past, so the "family car" is a thing of the past except for "mommy mobiles" like some SUVs, crossovers, and minivans. In the main, vehicles have become simply a commodity and like other commodities, cheap is good.

I'd be willing to bet that 90% of all the 4WD SUVs and crossovers have never had dirt under their wheels except perhaps in somebody's driveway. I'd be willing to bet that well over half of such vehicles in the US have never been driven in snow of any consequence. As to MLs, I live in a town where sometimes it seems every third vehicle is an ML, and this is a place where you can actually justify having a 4WD, and three quarters of the MLs I see are driven by women. In fact, well over half of all makes of SUV/crossover I see are being driven by women. The makers did a good job of selling these vehicles to the "security moms," because they're big, relatively, heavy, have 4WD, and are considered safe.

Frankly, even in a climate where you can justify 4WD, I'd never buy one new as a daily driver. Until I bought this ML fall a year ago, the last 4WD I had, I got rid of in '76 and have had either RWD or FWD sedans ever since because unless you have a steep driveway, live on a mountainside, or have a job that demands that you're always there and must come in early, you really don't need a 4WD even in urban Alaska.

I like the '99ML, and for what I paid for it, it is a great vehicle and is still a head turner. The car it replaced was also a '99, a Chrysler 300M, and compared to the 300M, the ML is lacking amenities and crude in some respects; the Ms climate control was much better, its sound system was better, its interior ergonomics were better, it was more reliable - as in never required ANY repair in the ten years I owned it; the ML ALWAYS needs something.

But to your fundamental point, I rode the bleeding edge of technology in electronics, especially computers, for some years; I always had to have the newest and "best." Frankly, all I did was beta development and I paid a very high price for all the bragging rights associated with latest and greatest. The computer I'm using now is a mid-line Dell about 4 yrs old, and I don't see replacing it with a newer one until it breaks; it is good enough. Buying new cars doesn't make any sense anymore unless you can expense them off; lease or buy used and let somebody else pay for the depreciation. And these days, nothing is going to prevent highend vehicles from drastically depreciating. The people who can really afford new high end vehicles can afford another new one, so they aren't buying used. The upkeep on even a ML in good shape is more than the lease or payments on lots of lowend cars. So, if I'm young or just not so well off, it makes more sense to buy a new Kia or Hundai or Ford that you can count on being utterly reliable or at least fixable under warranty for three to five years. You'd have to be nuts to buy something that costs over $125 just for an oil and filter change, and nearly $100 if you DIY plus the initial cost of an oil pump. Frankly, the Three-Pointed Star on it is the only reason I own mine, and I keep it in good enough shape that hardly anyone notices that it just became a teenager.
 
#56 · (Edited)
I want something with performance and a diesel is not where it is at. My handbuilt AMG v8 is. People have different wants and needs, but to try to make it seem like more people are worried about economy then performance, looks, and status, money aside means you have either been living under a rock for the last 20 years or your just plain lying. Take a look in the lot at the high class restaurant or club in your town and see what is parked up front, hint: its not a prius or chevy volt. Im not saying im all about status, im just saying if you cant see why your just plain ignorant. You can try to argue that a Prius or volt is more stylish or sexy then a benz, regardless of age, then be my guest, but it just isnt so. I like a good buy just as much as the next guy, which is why i bought this truck when gas was over $5 a gallon, it was a gift at the price i got it at. If I have to offset that awesome price with a high gas bill and get to own a beast like this truck then so be it, the pleasure I get from it makes it an even better deal then it already was. And as nice as they have become, Id jump in front of a train or take the bus before Id buy a minivan. It just isnt me. Not knocking anyone who does, but like I said, I could never do it. Id rock a full size suv before i did that. Maybe it isnt economical with 4 kids, but I wouldnt have 4 kids if i couldnt afford it then. This is how I roll, and you dont have to agree with it, but you cant knock it. This is just my "style" and preference, and i know there are others who share it. If they didnt, you would see freeways full of minivans and smart cars and that just isnt the case.
 
#59 ·
In all this debate, one thing seems to be going back and forth: comparing new cars to new and comparing old to new. I think this is creating a lot of confusion.

If this were a discussion about comparing new cars, sure I'd agree that MB has allowed others, even some of the non-luxury brands, to catch up to them in certain aspects. This certainly doesn't mean that there is no such thing as a stylish, economical, and yet extremely fun cars out there (insert my shameless plug of current and upcoming BMW models here). So no, you don't need to drive a Prius or Volt and lose all the joy of driving just to save on gas anymore... but none of any of this is really the point.

Is the W163 going to be a classic? Who knows. Are they good to look at? I'd argue that they were and therefore still are. That doesn't mean I think the design is still fashionable compared to the more complex cars of today. Certainly won't attempt to go to a nice restaurant and expect the valet to park my truck up front... but none of this is the point either.

The real issue stems back to whether or not its worth trading our old MLs for newer cars. And the answer to that is it depends.

If you want a more technological, stylish car or just want change, then money isn't the issue and certainly it's time to move on.

However if you want a more efficient car (and I'm not talking about whether or not you can afford it), you have immediately brought basic economics into the picture, like it or not. And I can't see any way that it makes sense to basically give away your car and pay $30,000 for something more fuel efficient. The loss you take in equipment still outweighs the gains in economy.

So which is it? Do you want a new car or are you trying to get better economy? There are clearly "better" cars than the ML, but you are most certainly going to have to pay to get them.


By the way, I'm loving how this thread has remained civil, it's been a great read.
 
#63 ·
There are clearly "better" cars than the ML, but you are most certainly going to have to pay to get them.
But that's what I was saying, there aren't any better new Diesel cars than the Diesel W163's.

As it turns out, they arrived at the pinnacle of Diesel technology, having CDI2 they have multiple pulses per injection and very high fuel pressure. Sure, fuel pressures subsequently got higher, but they also got burdened with DPFs and more EGR trickery that cannot be bypassed like it can in the ML.

Or maybe I'm just turning into an ML270 fanboi. I'd be happy for someone to point me towards a better new car to aspire to though.
 
#60 ·
Lol. Ive seen threads like this on other forums get super ugly and real fast. The real thing I took offense too, and I dont mean like I was offended but rather that I heavily disagreed with it, was that these trucks were too old to still be considered "stylish", I know I know..we could have had a whole conversation on the definition of stylish. Listen, if money was no object, I certainly wouldnt be driving my 10 year old truck around as my daily driver, thats for sure. Id be in brand new ML63 or Cayenne Turbo, or something along those lines. And yes, it would be great if fuel economy and performance went hand in hand, which they usually dont. I simply couldnt get enough money for my truck to grab something that I would enjoy as much as I do this truck. I dont mind investing time and money to keep it running, especially when I know it would cost me a whole lot more to get some thing else that I would want.
 
#62 ·
The only people who'll turn up their noses at a 163

are car snobs, most of whom either don't own a car or who own shitboxes. The only variable in that is whether it is obviously well-kept; I've had lots of valets say, "nice car," and this ain't a poor town, in summer they'll be parking lots of Ferraris and Porsches. If I were still of an age and inclination to be a horndog, I might regret that the MB logos in the interior are so inconspicuous; you really need those lighted "Mercedes - Benz" door sills. But really, nobody but the guys at the dealership and a few car freaks have any idea how old my car really is; it is a very well equiped and very well maintained vehicle with that big three-pointed star on it and that is all they notice.
 
#65 · (Edited)
The part about the clubs and fancy restaurants, I could care less about that too, but I was using the concept to make a point. The reason those hollywood types were rocking prius' and whatnot was to send a message not because they really needed to save the money or liked them. Those not interesting in sending that message were driving Bentleys, SLS's and Range Rovers. As for the part about the cayenne turbo or ML63, I really like the look and performance of both, plus it would make sense to get into something newer, if money werent an issue at all. I know the time will come when it will no longer make sense to put money into this vehicle but I think I got some time left with 115k on the odometer and being ive replaced many many things on this truck. It will be a sad day for me as I have got to know this truck very well in terms of driving it and maintaining it, and thats a satisfying thing, at least to me. I have other friends who are definitely car enthusiasts but they arent into doing much themselves, or keeping cars long term (unless they have to) by choice, they are into it in a differenet way then myself, but they appreciate how I am and what I do. btw Tons of good info on this thread.
 
#69 ·
Another point that I find interesting is that Detroit fails to produce a diesel SUV. It seems like American companies are more concerned with hybrids and the overseas market likes diesels more, with the small exception of the Cayenne Hybrid which is $30k more than a new ML...

At least for me the hybrids have never been attractive. I have a friend who has a Ford Escape Hybrid and while she gets about 26-28 MPG, I don't know if I'd ever save enough gas to justify the price hike, whereas the diesel proves to be only a minor price bump for comparable efficiency to hybrids. And plus the degradation of the battery in hybrids over time scares me. I don't know how much new batteries are, but it seems like if you keep the car more than 5 years, you're looking at a very expensive and very necessary repair.
 
#70 ·
Back when I worked for Toyota we had many Highlander Hybrid and Priuses come in with over 100k miles. We even had a couple examples come in with 250-350k miles. Their gas mileage only suffered by about 2-3mpg combined on the original battery packs.
 
#79 ·
Just came on this old thread. How many of you still have your ML's 4 years later?

I got our 2001 ML as the safest vehicle I could find, for the wife and kids to drive. Safest and able to get her out of any situation. Traction control. Recall the W163 won the Paris - Dakar race. The other vehicle that would have worked about as well was the G class. But that's 2-3 times as expensive. Other than the locking diff, the W163 ML is a lot like the W463 that was made at the same time. And over on the G forum, they're always having to repair stuff too.

We did have one major safety problem with our ML. Once the dealer was doing some underbody repair and forgot to screw some crossmember on firmly on the frame, and after a couple hundred miles in the mountains she was losing steering control. Fortunately, fortunately she didn't, managed to find a little shop that was open, they found the problem and screwed our car back together. Only safety problem we've ever had. Just had to say that.

Other than that fault by a dealer, it has been exactly what I got it for. Wife recently got rear-ended by a small Subaru. Completely took the hood and some of the stuff on top of the engine off the Subaru. Didn't even bend any metal on our car, and it was thoroughly inspected a few times. We had the plastic bumper cover replaced and some paint repaired.

It's big enough for everyone, carries lots of stuff, and with the big frame it's not sagging with age. It looks the same as it always did other than surface effects, now including rust on the doors. G's aren't pretty either. Our W163 has great rear visibility, big windows generally.

You don't get great visibility with the unibody cars, including W164 and later ML's. They have little rear windows and need a lot higher beltline to give the body rigidity. Have you seen the funny little rear wiper on those? It looks like about five inches long. We had a very heavy winter icy rainstorm this year, and I was glad to be out in a 4WD with traction control, great visibility and a frame. I could see. Most people probably could not.

I don't think I would buy a new Mercedes now. All their engines are turbocharged for emission purposes. More stuff to wear, higher internal temps, less durability, higher prices. And they get about 150 thousand for a G, which is much more than I would allocate to a car. Now I might get a Chevy Tahoe, they're nice and still have body on frame, and naturally aspirated V-8's (if Chevy can still do this, why can't Merc?), and decent gas mileage. They still don't have Mercedes level of 4WD and traction control even after 15 years.
 
#82 ·
Life is full of choices. Next vehicle you buy drive the same year vehicle you are thinking about purchasing and then drive the same year Mercedes. As you see from my profile I have a number of vehicles at my disposal all of which I own and maintain but I chose to drive the ML and CLS exclusively because in my mind they are superior vehicles to my other ones. I really don't care that there are faster vehicles or more economical vehicles out there that's technology. There is a price to pay for comfort and safety and in my mind you buy a MB for those points not economy or speed. Oh and I drove a friend's SLS the other day. Talk about off the rails fast. Good luck.
 
#84 ·
Interesting topic. Just last week I had a Hyundai "something" and a Nissan Versa, both rentals and I have to say that the fuel economy from these things is pretty impressive. I had the Versa for a week, and it cost me just over $10 to fill up, with a range nearing 400 miles. That's pretty impressive - but the car sucks in every other way imaginable. Luckily for me, I drive the 500 mostly during vacations and mostly on highways, so gas cost is not that much of an issue. By contrast, my wife has a 2012 X5 35i, which, driven at highway speeds, pulls well north of 26 MPG, and it feels nearly as good as the old ML.
 
#85 ·
I still have my 01 ML430 that I bought in 04. Close to 180k miles on her. Yes, she has had some repairs and a couple of computer glitches to solve. But I do 100% of the work on her myself. She is worth nothing on the market. But when I need her to do some work, she is always willing. Even with the gas mileage savings of a newer rig, it would never pay off, I am keeping her.

My litmus test to decide when it is time to replace is if, at any time, I question her reliability to do a 500+ mile road trip at the drop of a hat. When that day comes, I will find a suitable replacement. Until then I am loving not having a car payment, and enjoying cheap insurance.:grin
 
#86 ·
Oh the TT supra is a great car as long as you keep up on the turbos. Had one go and the "death whine" is not something you want to hear because it signifies end of life and significant money outlay. The Maserati is also twin turbocharged but the electrical system has to be one of the worst so while quite spirited it is temperamental and not reliable and the 911 Carerra....just gets me in trouble but the "young girls" love it because of how it looks. No for me the ML and CLS are my daily drivers. They are smart looking, sure footed, safe, reliable and not slow by any standard. Good luck.
 
#87 ·
This is a venerable thread but .....

My part-time gig is driving for Manheim Auto Auction. I drive on auction days and sometimes in between just to move cars around the 250 acre lot. I have driven literally EVERYTHING although admittedly not very far or fast. My major Lesson Learned is as follows:

Maintenance is everything to vehicle longevity and "niceness".

Any auto these days is capable of at least 200k miles if taken care of.

Any auto, regardless of price, can be turned quickly into junk by lack of maintenance.

I have driven Bentleys and Benz that were junk and Toyota RAV-4s that were gems.

Maintain your vehicles Gentlemen and they will last as long as you want them to. Pete's theory is "It takes very little to convince you that you need a new car when you want a new car".
 
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