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6K views 138 replies 0 participants last post by  ML 430 guy 
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#1 ·
I was reading with interest that thread because it proves my observations for that last few years and I rather comment on subjectives than technical because of the difficulty of distance, like a friend of mine, he calls me over the phone and explains to me the symptons, his dozer is sluggish, we agree is the converter, problem was the turbo or his P51 is rough, we agree is the carburetor, problem was corrosion on the cam lobes, have to realize is a 60 year old Merlin.<br> <br> A couple of days ago suddenly the front left brake on my ML started to drag, the burnt smell was strong, lucky for me the last two miles I knew people along the road, I made pit stops here and there to cool the brakes, they were smoking, the last stop I carefully used water because of the time factor, the grease on the hub was frying so was the anti squeal compound, at that point I did not care if I cracked the rotor, I had the reds that bad, because the third time recently. Now I have to do the rigamarole dance with the dealer, a painfull inconvenience.<br> <br> Which leads me to reflect, here is a premiun brand where I paid forty some thousands and it should be free of small annoyances, the percentages seem to me to be high. I was reading the chart that Wolfgang provided and the numbers there dont look bad, probably the ML is the biggest contributor to those numbers but for Mercedes it should be at the top of the list, period. It is my strong belief that today's automobile rests in great part on the technologycal achievements of German automakers, based on hystorical fact up to the present, but what we are facing here is not a question of engineering which Mercedes has it in the bag but one of execution and that one has many faces, like who your suppliers are and the quality of their parts, like the great amplitud that Mercedes gave to some suppliers to even design some of the components, the labor force, the pressure of the big stock holders as to company policy, modus operandy, tradition and integrity Vs amount of profit. Mercedes still has a strong reputation but we all know that is a lot easier to come down from a hill than to get back to the top, remember in the 70's Mercedes was synonimous for quality, not today.<br> <br> As a dedicated brand loyalist it pains me to see the star tarnishing (and I know that I am not the only one), I wish I could somehow comunicate to that isolated and unreachable top, HEY! HEY! QUALITY is the ISSUE, the whole house of BENZ seats on it, what are you doing?<br> <br> Have a good day gentlemen,
 
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#52 ·
You guys are Entertaining to say the least!(long)

You guys crack me up! Let me get this straight- JohnN trusts his own personal experience with ONE vehicle and web forums over a J.D. Power study or CR annual survery. I am sorry John but this makes no sense to me. Web forums automatically introduce bias. Most people that logon to forums such as this one are looking for positive or negative views. On a forum, people who own a ML(or any other make) will justify/defend their purchase. People who are dissatisfied with the Ml(or any other make) with complain about it. In other words, you are more likely to see somebody say-'I can't believe my brand new $40k car broke down today!' than somebody who is perfectly happy and whose ownership is uneventful. That my friend by definition is BIAS. One more thing John, not everybody who has bought a 2nd ML did it because they loved their 1st ML. Alot of people traded their in because they HOPED that MB had made some improvements(see previous post). <br>
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Mr. SchneiderIS keeps mentioning the MDX tranny failures, and other quality issues(thud, weeping side view mirrors). I have heard of only one transmission failing on the MDX(that vehicle was a Lemon and replaced by Acura). IMHO, to call this a major issue would be blowing it out of proportion. To be fair, I will post a question regarding this on our web site(AcuraMDX.org). Regarding the weeping mirrors- their has been a TSB to address this issue, and 2002 MY sideview mirrors are redesigned and donot have this problem. Thuds are VIN specific and are not found on MDX's with build dates after 3/01(I think that date is correct but I am not positive). I am confident that the MDX will be far more reliable than the ML(lets compare ML vs. MDX 1st year quality issues)!! oh, and I don't buy that 'ML is so much more complex' arguement!<br>
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anyways, i think i have said enough for now. <br>
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G
#54 ·
acuramdx.org is the most biased forum I've seen

Man, if you want entertainment go to the acura forum. Some of the most biased owners I have ever run across. Mention something like the lack of stability control on the MDX and you will get called names and given many reasons why it is not necessary, etc. etc.<br> <br> I find it interesting that the MDX owners are constantly running threads comparing the MDX to other vehicles. The most compared to vehicle, The ML. Yes very entertaining.
 
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#55 ·
Re: acuramdx.org is the most biased forum I've seen

This a a drama compared to the 10 minutes of comedy I read at mdx.org! Bash the ML, Bash the ML, i laughed, and not to mention the fact that the thread was riddled with errors concerning the ML. I could post and correct, but I am secure enough with my car that i dont feel the need to defend it on other boards.<br> I Love My ML! Enough Said!
 
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#56 ·
I didn't expect it to make sense to you...

if you can't see the ML is a much more complicated vehicle (here's a hint - yours doesn't even have stability control. You like Consumer Reports? See what they have to say about stability control and SUVs).<br> <br> I considered the MDX - but after all was said and done, I think it'll make a very good $30k Honda, and nothing more. It's an Accord, through and through. Truth be told, I hate my Accord.<br> <br> Reliability? Well - everyone screams they're reliable - if that's the case, someone owes me some money for the exhaust that's rusted out, the alternator that's failed, and the water pump and timing chain that conveniently get thrown in as 'routine maintenance' of almost $1200 under 80k miles.<br> <br> But you're entitled to your opinion, even though I don't agree with it. When all's said and done - my car was delivered without a single flaw, and it's a luxurious, comfortable, strong, safe vehicle. That's what I paid for, that's what I got. Too bad JD Power doesn't send me a survey.
 
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#57 ·
Good point John...

I find it hilarious the way Honda and the the Honda loving rags always talk about how the MDX is based on the Odessey, they always fail to mention the fact that it's based on the accord. They don't want it to be a commonly known fact that their luxury SUV is really an accord under all that plastic! ROTFLMAO<br> <br> Another thing about MLs, yes there were quality issues with the 98s and to a lesser extent the 99s, but have you seen what these 98s and 99s go for? They seem to sell for at least $25k if not $28 or 30k. The earlier MLs about $5k less than the current offerings, so they have held their value incredibly well. For the MDXs to do as well they'll need to be selling for over $30k in 05 and 06, no way! As soon as everyone else's new models hit the 01 MDX will be worth under $25k and the new ones will be discounted 2and 3k. Those poor MB wantabes are about to get pounded by resale value, especially the idiots paying 1-5k premiums and for all the inflated dealer addons they're being forced to pay for.
 
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#58 ·
Nobody ever seems to mention dealers and service either...

I went into several Acura dealers, and was treated very poorly - almost as if they were doing me a favor selling me a car!<br> <br> Mercedes dealers were quite the contrary - I was treated like a human being, a customer, and someone who's business was valued.<br> <br> The typical Acura owner response - 'well, there's a lot of demand' - bullflop. I get pounded by e-mails from two Acura dealers now, trying to get me to buy MDXs they have on their lots. One was the same guy that I had put a deposit down, only to take it back in disgust a few weeks later. Guess his business isn't quite what it was..<br> <br> Service should count - when everyone talks about Lexus - Lexus has that rep because they cater to the customer. Of course - there's no such thing as Lexus in Japan - they sell the same RX300 for much less under the toyota badge. But if you don't mind paying more for a name....
 
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#59 ·
That would be great ...

If they were though, it would be nice for them to participate a little more. Some answers to some questions would be great. <br> <br> <IMG SRC = 'http://forums.mbnz.org/uploads/is/pics/331849414112002103113PM.jpg'>
 
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#62 ·
Lets get it right ...

I did not state that the transmission was experiencing massive failures! I said that I consider it a weakness that could lead to failures. I wouldn’t expect to get a honest answer from AcuraMDX.org either. When I did my rounds there it seamed more like people wanted to ignore the issue. I am a former Acura owner whom likes their cars for the most part. What my point has been is that the MDX does not meet my needs. It may be a good SUV but under the type of use that I want a SUV for it would not survive! <br> <br> In the ratings game of JD and CR I find it interesting that a true SUV is placed in with a bunch of jacked up station wagons on steroids! If you want a comparison, take your MDX into the mountains here and see how well it lasts pulling a travel trailer. My research tells me that your reliability rating will land on the pavement at the bottom of the hill. My final analysis by the way did not come from AcuraMDX.org but rather from more direct means (those involved with testing and towing).<br> <br> One mans quality does not make it another mans! You bought a good vehicle for your needs and I bought mine for my needs.<br> <br>
 
G
#63 ·
Yeah, and Honda Pilot is better than MDX and costs less

I completely agree about the MDX being priced too much for what you get. Honda has managed to price the Pilot (honda version of MDX) for $10K less than the MDX yet it is more spacious and has every feature. (well except for maybe the fake wood). I guess if I had fallen for the hype and purchased a MDX, I too would bash the ML.
 
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#64 ·
Re: Surveys and Such - I agree with John!

Still - looking at this post - I see you as the only MB owner (and I'm guessing at that - I haven't seen your handle on this board at all) that's displeased with a second ML they got.<br> <br> Sosh seems to be aggravated by a brake squeal - but I don't seem him disliking the car, or being unhappy with it's reliability. AR? He's an old time Benz fan - and his position is to be understood. <br> <br> Benz used to make cars that lasted forever. I know people in Europe with MB's that are over 30 years old, and still run like NEW. Here's a hint - on the streets of New York, you're bound to see a lot of 10-15 year old American and German cars. Not all that many Japanese. Know why? They unravel after ten years. Mine is only 8 (and it's not mine - I got that with the wife) - and it's already unraveling at the seams.<br> <br> Mercedes used to make cars that ran until you didn't want them anymore - but they don't do that now. Why not? Market changed - as AR pointed out, the markets, and the way car companies do business - are all different now.<br> <br> So MB doesn't make the car that will run a million miles anymore. As AR pointed out - he's stuck with them, because there's nobody else to turn to.<br> <br> As far as my brake pads needing changes at 10k miles - at least the car stops. My POS Accord has all kinds of brake sensor problems, and I know ABS isn't working right now - the dealer wanted $900 for an ABS sensor. Riiight - and somehow, CR rates those pieces of CRAP as 'reliable'.<br> <br> My 88 Chevy Blazer, now boasting almost 200k miles, hasn't cost me more than $1000 total in repairs over the last ten years and runs like an ox. I only wish that the stupid bastard over at CR that recommends these cars would have to live with my Accord for a week, so he could keep his big mouth shut :)
 
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#65 ·
Re: Yeah, and Honda Pilot is better than MDX and costs less

Wanna know what's really funny (and pathetic)?<br> <br> If Jeep built a car that was based on the M-class, the MDX crew would be here bashing it day and night.<br> <br> But when Honda takes 99.9% of the MDX, repackages it without the poor quality leather and sells it for $10k less, it's acceptable.<br> <br> HILARIOUS!
 
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#66 ·
Re: Lets get it right ...

Hey, is that Bill Clinton behind the SchneiderIS moniker?<br> <br> 'I did not state that the transmission was experiencing massive failures!'<br> <br> No, you said 'The transmission overheating was widespread'.<br> <br> Perhaps the Acura owners just didn't share your hypothesis that a modified tow rating (requiring coolers for towing, basically) is the same as a failing tranny, and presumed instead that with the coolers the tranny will function properly.<br> <br> It's your prerogative to decide that one leads to another, but it doesn't necessarily make it a fact. I imagine that in a couple or a few years we'll know.<br> <br> I agree w/the rest of your post.<br> <br>
 
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#67 ·
Re: acuramdx.org is the most biased forum I've seen

What I think part of the issue is, is that some of the owners read too much into the press releases for the MDX, or the magazine reviews. Now this doesn't apply to all of the owners though. Many are very well informed about a wide variety of competitive vehicles, and you'll find that those owners are the ones that aren't totally oblivious to the advantages of the competitive vehicles.<br> <br> As for rationalising about stability control, many of them haven't driven an SUV with stability control. Same goes with HID lamps. If you go from a crappy vehicle with sealed beam headlamps, of course the halogens will seem new and magical to what you're used to :)
 
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#68 ·
Re: Surveys and Such - I agree with John!

Funny how in other posts you and others don't hesitate to say 'that (insert name of board here)is something else -- they bash other cars, sweep problems under the rug, refuse to acknowledge something, etc.' when that is EXACTLY what you do here.<br> <br> Let me see if I can summarize your position:<br> <br> JD Power and CR quality reports are inherently flawed because the experience of THOUSANDS of respondents differs from yours and your coworkers with the VW. You haven't addressed the European-based report (earlier threads) yet. Similarly flawed, I'm sure.<br> <br> Replacing brakes on a Benz at 10k is OK because your Accord needs a new ABS sensor. No wonder MB has taken 5 years to work out most of the kinks in our cars! Apologists compare them to Accords and the problems are rationalized away.<br> <br> Window switch issues are OK because. Oh, you haven't rationalized that one away. Or did I miss it? Or is it part of the 'advanced technology' argument?<br> <br> I paid a lot of money for all this 'advanced technology' (brakepads and window switches not included in that definition) and expect it to work. <br> <br> This isn't a Microsoft product. I did not pay $50k to be a beta tester for something that's been around for 5 years already. Courteous and capable and superior as my dealer may be, I see him WAY too often. <br> <br> First-MY glitches/issues? You go into that knowing the risk. 5th MY? No excuse (or are you going to bring up the 'new model, 1000 fixes, new plant, new country, new labor pool, new suppliers, we're just learning the English language' malarky. This is the 5th model year already.<br> <br> You experience with your Accord is no more representative of all Accords or Honda products than my experience w/my MLs is of other MLs or MB products. Of course, based on the surveys that you distrust so much, it appears that the latter is closer to the norm.
 
G
#69 ·
Hmmm...bad luck or just BS?

10k brake pad changes? Do tell. What is the basis for your claim.<br> <br> If you had so many problems with your '99 why didn't you Lemon it?<br> <br> Pete (53k of experience, BTW)
 
G
#70 ·
Do me a favor,...

please don't summarize my opinion. You're not capable.<br> <br> Second - I didn't rationalize the window switch failures, because there's no excuse for them. Those should have been fixed. But I'm not about to not buy a car because it's had a history of bad window switches. Sorry that it bothers you that much - did it come as a shock to you when you bought your car?<br> <br> I mention the Accord's brakes because even if I do have to change at 10k - MY ML STOPS. That piece of garbage that litters my driveway, otherwise known as a Honda - has a hard time doing so. Guess why I spent $40k+ buying a safer new car for the kid?<br> <br> Wait - I don't want you to guess. You're much better off at summarizing people's opinions, and trying to derive logical errors in them.<br> <br> What I did mention is that I don't TRUST JD Power. Neither do I trust Consumer Reports. I tend to find their opinions biased. Again - since that's my money I'm spending, I'm entitled to trust whomever I damn well please.<br> <br> And no - this isn't a Microsoft product. It's a Mercedes. Each year, Mercedes worked hard to improve over the last year. Yes - I did rationalize the first two years as a new plant, new country, new model, new ideology - does that excuse problems in 00 and 01? No - but did the number of problems significantly decrease in those years? Yes.<br> <br> Sorry - this might sound condescending - but Japanese cars work on the basis of building something very simple, that don't have any groundbreaking engineering to them - and that's why they SHOULD be more reliable. They don't pave the way for anything, just build dupes of whatever's on the market. Why do you think Acura didn't bother with an SUV until now? Because they were selling overpriced Isuzu Troopers with their badge (and what a wonderful reliability history those had) until they could take all the time in the world to put together something simple, that would work. I applaud them for that - but I'd rather have something built on today's technology, not yesterday's.<br> <br> Call me a beta tester. I'll mail you a copy of DOS - that doesn't crash at all.
 
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#71 ·
Re: Surveys and Such - I agree with John!

I change my sign-in name based on the topic and my mood. More fun that way.<br> <br> I think there is more than 1 'stupid bastard' at Consumer Reports saying the Accord is reliable. More like a few thousand :)
 
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#72 ·
Re: Do me a favor,...

Forgive me, do you find JDP *or* CR biased, or both? <br> <br> JDP *reports data* and does not draw any conclusions. They cannot be biased - it is empirical data.<br> <br> CR's opinions are in their car reviews and 'best pick' types of categories. Sure, those are subjective and subject to bias of the tester. Reliability ratings are *reported data*.<br> <br> Or are you saying that the respondents are biased and the results of the reporting are inherently flawed? I attempted to address that for you in a few other posts on the subject of survey techniques, which you conveniently ignored, deflected, or twisted.<br> <br> So let me try this again, John, since you appararently are as incapable of understanding survey techniques as I am of summarizing your ever-changing, 'at least it doesn't catch on fire', logic-flawed commentary:<br> <br> According to the surveys, MB/ML has more defects per car than several other luxury makes (and even some non-lux makes)<br> <br> (this is where you insert your usual 'yea, but...' commentary about how MB owners are more picky than everyone else on the planet, so they will report EVERYTHING whereas owners of lesser brands (which, in your world, is EVERYTHING ELSE) don't expect perfection and expect rattles, squeaks, and other miscellany defects and say 'all's good!')<br> <br> So as a marketer with knowledge of survey processes and potential flaws and biases, I say 'OK, *assume* that self-selection and reporting bias exists.' Of course, that flaw doesn't necessarily exist, and I don't know that it does or does not. It depends on how the questions are phrased and the scale by which someone is rating/answering the questions.<br> <br> Nonetheless, let us assume that the bias does exist. In which case, the NUMBER of flaws per vehicle reported might not be accurate. That flaw, should it exist in the survey mechanism, causes people to answer questions RELATIVE TO THEIR EXPECTATIONS rather than empirically/objectively.<br> <br> Therefore, the survey results are valid in context of whether a brand does (or does not) meet their expectations and the extent to which they do (or do not).<br> <br> So, John (are you still following this, or are you on another board looking for quality issues to rationalize ours?) pick one of these results:<br> <br> - there are more defects per car in MB than in other cars, and MBs quality (relative to competitors) has fallen<br> <br> - other makes are better at meeting owner expectations than MB, and MB's ability to meet expectations has fallen relative to those same other-brands<br> <br> Those are the ONLY TWO RESULTS that can come from the survey results, regardless of self-selection, respondent, or scale bias.<br> <br> What I fail to understand is why:<br> <br> 1. when a report of thousands of owners (or individual) indicates that the ML or MB is not as reliable as you would like to believe it is, you a) dismiss the report as flawed or biased, or b) dismiss the experience as unique and abnormal (when it is no more or less unique or abnormal than your own)<br> <br> 2. when a report or experience indicates that something else is more reliable, you say 'well, it should be, it's simpler'. Which, of course, inherently means that the ML/MB is less reliable, but then you insist on denying it.<br> <br> Pick one. They are mutually exclusive.<br> <br> So I don't further insult you with my clearly flawed ability to understand your position and commentary, just tell me:<br> <br> - are you contrarian by nature and just post stuff with flawed reasoning to keep the thread going and get entertainment?<br> <br> - are you just 'not capable' (as you so aptly put it) of understanding the facts?<br> <br> - are you just adversely effected by the new car smell and your judgement/objectivity is diminished from the outgassing?<br> <br> Oh, and those aren't mutually exclusive.
 
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#75 ·
HAHAHAHAHAHA!

You're a marketer?<br> <br> I'm done talking to you....<br> <br> Oh - by the way - people like Andersen report on empirical data too. How much do you think their auditing was worth with regards to Enron?<br> <br> No - I don't trust JD Power, nor Consumer Reports. Sorry that I wasted this much breath on you - I'll save it for someone who comprehends English.
 
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#76 ·
Wait, I'd better answer, before you start crying...

that I twist things around.. You know - for a marketer, you're not very good at making your opinions look right....<br> <br> OK - Since I don't have the time for a long, drawn out post (I have a real job, sorry pal) - here's a question:<br> <br> JD Power is doing:<br> <br> a) Collecting reliability data from owners.<br> b) Tallying this data.<br> c) Reporting it.<br> <br> Can you say - without a shadow of a doubt, that they're not biased? That they're reporting the absolute truth?<br> <br> The same for Consumer Reports?<br> <br> Here's a question for you - a simple one, so as not to confuse you. A year ago, people would have thought Enron was moving up in the world, partly in thanks to reports verified by independent auditor Arthur Andersen. Now that we know a little better - any reason to say why a JD Power couldn't fudge the books but an Andersen can?<br> <br> Right - conspiracist - I said it before - I don't trust independent surveys like that. I know three people who've bought cars in the past 6 months, none of them got a notice from JD Power (as neither did I). Am I not representative in their sampling? Well if not - who is?<br> <br> Well, I'm sorry to have ruffled feathers because I like my ML, and because I thought enough people were happy with theirs to make it a very popular selling car. If you look further down the page, you'll actually see a thread with the 100k miles ML's, and the problems they're having are less than my family's had with 2 Honda POS Accords (which - BTW - are owned by people who are very mechanically inclined, and good drivers).<br> <br> Funniest thing - nobody seems to want to answer the problems with the Japanese cars - just keep coming back and saying 'you're rationalizing' - nice. That's called DENIAL.<br> <br> Satisfaction, as I know it - is a measure of your experience versus your expectation. What I said I still stand by - people have higher expecations of Mercedes. Sorry you have a hard time believing it. Why don't you go and pay $10k more for a Honda with an A on the hood, so you can feel MUCH better.
 
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