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A little off topic :)

3K views 40 replies 10 participants last post by  Alter 
#1 ·
Guys, i'd like an opinion from people who really know Merecedes 4matic vehicles.

I know it has nothing to with with w140, yet it seems that 140 owners have more deep and accurate perseption of the quality, then modern Mercedes owners :)

So, the super simple (for the experts) question is: is there ANY reliable 4matic mercedes (any year)?

*The assumption is that it is used vehicle, with ~40-50k mi. Something which can handle another 100k without major issues.
** I thout the answer is - NO, but please correct me if you have firm opposite opinion.
 
#2 ·
I own a W210 it is my gas-up and go car. Super reliable. Way better than W211. The transfer box is a separate unit unlike the new ones which is all in one sharing the same fluid which tend to blow up under 100k. I'm at 193k, and mine is California to New York reliable right now. All I do to this Wagon is add gas...

Ask me anything you like...

Martin
 
#4 ·
The 2002 E320 4Matic is the car that got me started with MB. Was looking for a good AWD car for the wife, looked at several Subaru's when we came across the the E320. It had 86K on it, and cost less than most of the Subs. we looked at. Now has 149K, only parts have been 2 brake light sw's, 100K tune up, and replaced front axles. Not counting passenger fender, hood, grill, bumper, headlight from hitting a deer @ 60MPH. Wife loves this car, and wants to keep it. With studded tires the 4Matic is great on snow/ice covered roads, as long as the snow is not over about 14", not enough ground clearance. She gets about 26MPG with it, driving 50 miles to work, and back. Gets a little better MPG on long road trips.
 
#7 ·
Not sure I would want more power than the V6. Wife gets enough tickets/warnings with it:devil

The V6 has plenty of power for our mountain passes, will easily cruise on the open interstates at 95+ MPH. I usually only get to drive the 4Matic when we take long 1000+ mile trips. On these long trips, have never found myself thinking that I needed more power, just amazed at how well the car drives/rides.
 
#6 ·
Alter,

M112 n M113(V8) are the same engine design-Just two more cylinders than the V6. All the other parts are the same, yet you may find E430(V8), but not sure if it is available in 4Matic, or a E55 in 4matic...The drawback is is these two engines piss oil sooner than other model engines for the same mileage from the rear seal. Whatever you do get a sedan of the second generation 2000-2002 or a wagon 2000 to 2003... They are gas-up and go cars...Never need nothing...

I concur with bigsky

Martin
 
#11 ·
Wife used to have a W210 E320 T-Model 4-Matic which we sold with close to 170k, never an issue with the 4matic and nothing aside from regular wear items that are to be expected. She now has a W251 R500 4-Matic, and so far no 4-Matic related issues there either, but definitely more and more expensive maintenance than the W210. My winter beater is a W163 ML320 4-Matic and same here, just regular maintenance and wear an tear items as of yet.

I actually really like the 4-Matic system and it seems very trouble free. And in the R500 it plays rather beautifully together with all the other systems and make driving that car on snow (with 4 snow tires) a real pleasure and a very safe feeling ride no matter what.
 
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#12 ·
I am also in search of a 7 seater MB. I was thinking about the W210 wagon as I have the sedan version and I know how reliable they are but I am concerned about the safety of my kids riding in the rear facing 3rd row seat in case of an accident so I am considering a GL.
Does anyone know how is the reliability of the X164/GL chassis? Any preferred years similar to the 2000-2003 W210 wagons?
 
#13 ·
You are missing the point.

A 4-Matic system is terrific, but somewhat wasted on a typical sedan. To me, 4-matic is designed to get you through the snow and ice of winter. There are better cars for that purpose than those mentioned on this thread.

I happen to be a big fan of the 163-body ML. This vehicle was built on a truck chassis. You ride high in the car, and it has a flawless 4wd drive system. This vehicle is far safer than a station wagon or any other sedan in winter weather driving.

Once the winter weather is upon us, I keep the 140's inside and only take the 163's out. When spring comes, you really don't need 4wd.

Think about it. And now, the 163-bodies are very inexpensive to buy. I prefer the AMG version, the ML55, a very fast ride. Plenty of power, amazing performance for a full sized SUV.
 
#20 ·
Yea MAWA :laugh would concur. Both offer advantages and disadvantages like any car would. I'm a lover of "Station Wagons" because haul " long things". I'm of the working class, and I put my cars too work. I hauled 1500lbs of gardening rock in my Wagon on a few occasions. Just recently I hauled 40 to 50 cases of Laminate Flooring weighing 1300lbs. On few occasions hauled washer and a drier from one home to another. 8ft/6ft/4ft ladders, I have had three transmissions in my wagon, yet for fun I have filled mine with family and friends, and for my fun I haul my two to three meter model planes, so for ME I love the wagon, and the SUV type vehicles just do not serve ME well, yet I WOULD KILL to have W140 WAGON !!!!

Find out what you want... Where I live I have high speed twisty turny roads, yet most of the accidents here are with SUV's because they just sit too high.

The feature I like are the hydraulic rear suspension and the all wheel drive.

Reliability they are both the same. The V6 is fine for me. No need to have a V8. Stick with 722.6 tranny for power and reliability. Get a +2000 W163, or a W164

Safety, it is everyone's opinion all of these vehicles are super safe. I have seen a W210 rear-ended at 65mph, and it was crushed in about a foot or so...

You will be fine with a W210/W163/W164

All the best,

Martin
 
#15 ·
At one time I had a 2002 E430 4Matic. Very solid car. Also, I have a 2005 C240 4Matic that is very reliable. 200,000+ miles and has always started up.
 
#16 ·
W164 ML 320 CDI 4Matic here, did a bit of off roading in the snow, it's just unstoppable, and it doesn't have the off road package (low-range + diff locks). 160k km, no problems with the 4matic. I was under the impression older 4matics were less reliable than new ones. The newer 4matic is just 3 open diffs, and slipping wheels get their brake applied, so for 99% of driving, you will never be stuck anywhere, and you can't have a simpler AWD system than that, and simplicity = reliability.
 
#17 ·
may I jump in ?
I am searching for a cheap E class or ML class for ca 5,000 eur most. I found out that I can get E class year 2002 here for even less money. However those with Automatic transmission are all diesels. Will I have troubles? Any comment appreciated. I am also worried about how to find out real kilometers on odometer? Thanks, Samo.
 
#18 · (Edited)
I'm opened to the ideas too.

So far though, research on suggested models is not too good. Most of the models suggested (US market) are not available with low milage, have some interior damages (mostly MLs) and generally pretty poor condition. Price though isn't that attractive, above 10k on average.

At the same time, i see Lexus LS460 awd cars coming down now to below 25k range (below 50k miles). Assuming bulletpoof design of 460s, sounds very attactive for high milage use. Now, MBs below 25k although looking good, are all from the crysler era, 7 gtronics, which are doomed at 60-70k... I'm puzzled.
 
#19 ·
At the same time, i see Lexus LS460 awd cars coming down now to below 25k range (below 50k miles).
... but are you ready to learn from zero? how to search for parts, where to search. In addition, another company another philosophy of a car. I do not doubt that you can replace oil filter in your w140 in the middle of the night, however for another car it will take you a whole day to prepare yourself, to get proper tools, etc. My decision is to stay with MB.

I am sentenced to MB :).
 
#21 · (Edited)
Samosali, it is very interesting to read what you noted :)

My situation is different, i always had japanise vehicles, and still do. s500 was the first and probably the last german car i will ever have :)
My BMW lease experience really turned me away.
Yes i like w140 in spite of may things, but in spite, not because :) w140 is special though and belongs to different era. I forgive may things to it because it is seriously old too, 22y is a lot for many materials.

Friend of mine is a Lexus guy and i did a lot of things with him on his cars (as fun or help). Do not want to be too boring, but all we ever did were brakes, water pump (preventive) and fluids of all sorts and kinds. We would fix something else... but there were none. Some cars were over 10 years old.

460 specifically, has the followig weakneses: high quality fluids (nothing special but high end of the widely available product lines), possible steering rack issue (either new rack for ~750 or new plastic or copper insert to the right side of the rack ~$10-20 if you are or to open one end of the rack), air rubber elements if it is equipped with air suspension (they come both ways with/without air, each shock is ~$750 for air ones. Air is very reliable, but rubber springs need cleaning and lubrication twice a year, noone does it :) ) water pump needs change ~80k may be some hoses. AT fluid every 50k. You may have problem with bushings (front and rear arms) 8 bushings $30 per pc.
I could not find ANY other issues ever reported on it :)

MAWA i'm with you big time!!!! I'd LOVE to have reliable luxury wagon!!!! But there is virtualy none :(
There is e class, volvo and subaru outback (i'm purpusly skipping cadillac, i'm not old enough to dive one :), not to mention reliability).

I had outback, perfect car with 1 exception, sound insulation is so-so (noisy on the hwy), and it is slow on my taste. It is in the same proximity with s500, ~7 sec 0-60. Bulletproof with 3.6 h6

Volvos are nice but even less reliable the MB, very expensive parts (more then MB), constant issues with AC and evaporators (f-ing BEHR again), not may shops available. Very few mechanics who ever did them in Ohio. Several computers running everything... diagnostics is frequenty needed at the dealer.

And we are back to e- class again... is there such a thing as reliable e- class 4 matic, v8?
 
#22 ·
Oh yes, I made assumption based on my attitude to cars. What you wrote explains why you can get another car without a star on the hood. I think I just cannot. thanks for your description, I must admit that there were times when I was interested in Lexus. Never mind, there is plenty of Mercedes cars in this country, so I am looking forward to get a new toy one day. I assume maintaining of E or ML class from 2002 will be at least 100% cheaper than this is true for my w140. In addition, we plan to make only ca. 5,000 km per year or even less with it.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Well my typical milage is 16k mi a year, planned is 18k mi a year... is whole different ball game :)
My better half is driving 26k a year... so she is well settled on subaru, new one every 4 years.
If i want to keep any car for some time is has to provide 100k trouble free miles...
 
#25 ·
The 164 body is built on A C-Class chassis. The 163 body is built on a truck chassis. The reason for this is customers complained the ride in the 163 body was too harsh. Lexus made their first RX body on a car chassis and people felt it rode more smoothly. Therefore, the reason for MB's change from a truck frame/chassis to a car chassis.

The 163 is NOT the 140, don't get that confused. Two different vehicles for two different driving conditions.

NEVER drive your 140 in the snow/ice conditions. The car is not built for those conditions, and the salt on the roads will rust out your 140...
 
#26 · (Edited by Moderator)
Guys, in my continuous search i got a little lost... please help if you know the answer.

E class 2002-2007 has somewhat reliable transmission (5-speed) 4matic. It comes with 5.0 and 5.4 v8 engines.
Does anyone have detailed descriprion and reliability feedback on those engines?

It seems, i'm not sure, that they have no iron liners, and instead are coated with alusil or silumin (not sure which coating). If this is correct, they are short life engines, once coating wears or scratches engine goes to garbage. I would not buy those. Any fuel except high end euro5 will greatly contribute to the coating wear, so basically this is Germany only technology, not applicable on other markets, including USA.
On the other hand i was under impression that this technology started later then 2007... does anyone know?
 
#27 ·
E-Class W211 Started 2003 for Sedans and 2004 for wagons. Yes, the 4-Matics come with 722.6's, and I guess you are looking at wagons? The early W211's used M112 and M113 engines that use a $50 CPS, but I want to say later their was engine change, and the engine went to more CPS sensors, and each costing $200-300each.
Now, the SBC(ABS pump for a lack of a better word) pump is the pain in the W211's as it is designed to error-out for replacement at about 300,000 brake pedal cycles, and the rebuilt is about $800 to $900, but then it has to be coded by the dealer, or Mercedes Licensed shop, yet sadly one cannot get one on FleaBay, or buy a used SBC pump because it will not work. They need to coded to your car. The way a DIY'er can do a SBC fix is to program it with "Developer Version of C4" see the 33min video of this link below, but to fix the SBC see these videos. That is why the W210 is the best model for DIY ownership.....Cheap to own - Cheap to fix - Does not break-down as much - can use used parts....

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsrP5MUPi01hezA8-u7S0Fg

Besides this thing with nearly all modules have to be coded parts. The panoramic roof is very finicky requires constant lube, and the replacement of the stupid rubber bushings every handful of years for the panoramic roof. I really do not care for the bar-graph fuel gauge, and the climate-control. The car has been cheapened there... I like the information cluster, but my W210 has one too, but less annoying. Once the SBC error appears then the car has a funny brake feel, yet the brakes still work...

You will have a higher interval of cost of maintenance and shorter interval for maintenance too

I would not worry about the engine, but then I drive like grandma, so I never tax the engine?

All the best,

Martin
 
#28 · (Edited)
Damn... everything which looks more or less ok has major flows :(

I'm not "must have" wagon, but i do need seats to drop down, so i can fit long items if needed. And small hatch in the middle is not enough :(

Usually i'm travelling fast, so i would prefer v8 which could handle over 100k. Assuming it will have 45k already at the time of purchase.

300000 brake stops is bad :( it is ~4Y of use, at most! Very dissapointing.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Back to the engines, so m119 had design parameter over 600k km, they realistically can do 600k km if serviced well (~375k mi).
After ~2010, md shortened designed life down to ~ 250k km or so. Modern MB, as well as all audi/vw and BMW has happy life ~100k km (~63k mi). From there on it is fast declining path :( US fuel helps too because of the higher alcohol content.

So, i guess w210 in the last of the breed?

Lexus ls 460 has the same design spec BTW, over 600k, even in 2016.
 
#30 ·
The guess is about 120k miles is where one hits the 300k mark(The crowed on the net is having the SBC problems right about that mileage. My buddy has one, and his occurred at 130k). The early M112's n M113's used one CPS-No brainier to fix one-cps problem, but I want to say their are four cps sensors... At $200 to $300 pop-not sexy.... CPS problems show up around 150k miles


These are the problems one faces-Got to pay to play Mercedes...

Martin
 
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