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Traded a poor E39 for a cool W140

5K views 33 replies 6 participants last post by  Joe-V12 
#1 ·
Oddly I had no intention of trading for the car but I have always liked the W140 cars and it is a 320 so less is more here I guess. The catch of coarse there was a catch. The trans is slipping in reverse and I was aware of this when I traded the BMW for the Benz. The bummer was in need of a ton of work so it really just sounded more interesting to take on the Benz.

Questions

What to do about the trans. Obviously it needs a rebuild or a good used trans. I have to keep the costs down this is not a valuable car here. I have considered pulling the trans apart myself as I have seen a few treads on This already and it appears to be somewhat straight forward.

Other stuff

Sunroof does nothing at all?

Drivers window nothing?

Need an antenna assembly?

Trunk doesn't open from button on trunk?
 
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#2 ·
Welcome to the W140 forum....

What year is your S320?

The transmission:

A used one very rare you find a decent one as the W140's S320's suffer from the reverse issue from 92-96, but the fix is a five dollar 0-ring...It is the small o-ring in picture seven of the following link, but you want to replace all the seals and o-rings in the thread...

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/1369461-722-5-transmission-oil-pump-rebuid.html

This is how you remove the transmission:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/1368666-transmission-removal-m104_s320.html

Here are two great threads on this transmission-lots of links and data..

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w14...6-s280-australia-transmission-no-reverse.html

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/2247386-722-3-rebuilt-thread-i-am.html

Now a demon on these W140's is the heater tee. You want to change it yesterday, and you want to buy a NEW German made tee-Do that like ASAP, or you could cook your engine in seconds when it breaks..

Do not be like this poor guy?

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/1651337-t-shaped-plastic-broke-near-engine.html

This one should motivate you too

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/1320788-evil-lurks-under-hood-really-devil.html

Sunroof,

More than likely you have insulation jamed, or the center shaft needs lubrication. You will need to take the sunroof off. Easy DIY...-follow the links..

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/1610502-diy-w140-sun-roof-resotoration-repair.html

Drivers window,

You will need need the mechanical regulator as the pulleys break..

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/1287459-how-article-fixing-front-window-regulator.html

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/2109649-windown-regulator-problem-what.html

Antenna:

If you can pull the antenna from the tip, the big white gear inside has a broken spring pin on the plastic. The gear is available, but it can be fixed too. If you do not hear the motor, check the electrical connection as water falls and blue/green/white corrosion form, and it may just need cleaning, but you may need to remove the whole antenna. IF the mast is broken, it can purchased for under 20 bucks and replaced..

Trunk:

It can be pandora's box...

Check the pump under the seat for a broken vacuum connection as the connection will wiggle. Next you could have leaky diaphram at the lock assembly, and it can be replaced. I just replaced mine a few months back..

Your problems can be fixed. I have fixed them on a few cars..

Best of luck,

Oh, do check all your fuses first...

Martin
 
#4 ·
Thanks for the tips. The car is a 96 which leads me to think this is a 722.508 transmission correct? If you guys are willing to help me out I would probably take on the trans repair.

I took the car for a long ride tonight as it still drives fine and even has some reverse it is just slipping at the moment. I must say these are really nice handling cars for there size. I have owned W116 W126 currently w208 clk55 and a classic W108 280Se. All nice cars. This one oddly reminds me most of the W116 450sel I owned. Has that same flat in the corners feel for a large car. So planted and fun to drive which I rarely say about large cars.
 
#3 ·
Welcome!

Mava, as always awesome tips and suggestions!
 
#5 ·
Congrats and welcome. I'd take a S320 with weak reverse over a E39 too. :D
A couple of us here have a bit of experience with this type of rebuild. I've done a 722.4, Arlind86 is doing a 722.5 right now, and Martin has done everything. In the meantime use reverse as little as possible and use any hills to your advantage, importantly don't try to reverse up any gradients.
 
#7 ·
You are welcome,

I have a 96 S320. I have a 98 S500 too. My 96 feels a little more cozzy, and the beige/mushroom interior color is easy on the eye's. I have rebuilt 722.508 myself on my S320...

The car will drive fine in all gears(mine did that too). How many miles on the clock? My reverse failed right at 130,000 miles. The 722.3-722.5 transmissions suffer from overheating, and they need a external cooler, and this applies to the R129 convertible too..

I agreed to do a full rebuild, but for the moment I was going to do the reverse-only fix, and I am glad I rebuilt it because my frictions were very worn out. This will be your call? If you are genius-enough to remove a transmission, and have some level of patience. A little organization skills. Oh, take lots of pictures!!! Now, I have plenty of pictures of my 722.508, yet not as many as my 722.6 rebuild. I have 150 or so of 722.5, and about 800 of the 722.6... The pictures will save your butt when you get lost, or confused. The make it or break-it is installing the seals with the lip(lip seals) .Those are installed wrong. the transmission will not work, and they are a bit of a pain. If you just do the reverse only, the black seals in the picture seven are lip seals, and I used a birthday 1" ribbon to wrap them while I inserted the pieces together. A special wheel will come in the kit.

A full rebuild kit with seals/gaskets/frictions is under $200

If you want to replace just fix the reverse issue, I would buy a seal kit for $90. I would replace also the perimeter seals also as they get cooked from the heat, and you want to change the B2 piston seal on the outside of the transmission. The kit will have every seal. Now, in the link where it shows how to fix the the reverse problem. I would buy all new springs. A retaining ring, and the metal plate with the dimples.

Rebuilding transmissions is oily mess, and using gloves is advised. Having a nice flat work table is advised. I work on a single clutch pack at a time, and no need to take the valve body apart(to separate half's, but the rebuild kit has seals to rebuild the valve pistons, yet you can leave it alone).

One of those links on Joe's thread is a link to a 722.5 rebuild, and the parts diagram...You got to do some reading-read-read...

It took me two-years before I crack mine open.. Take your time. we will be here...

All the best,

Martin
 
#10 ·
The car is right at 130k lol figures right. It drives but I wouldn't say it is shifting well. Shifts very early and I'm not sure if I have 5 th gear at all. Seems to rev high to me on the highway but I never drive the car before so have no baseline. It is going to need to be repaired so it really doesn't matter.
I am not sure I want to take on the rebuild if it is that time consuming. I am a serious wrenched and have no issues with doing it except time. I would hate to repair it and find I had to pull it out again because I missed something.
I bet there are a lot of used transmissions out there used that already had a rebuild. Finding one is the trick I suppose.
 
#11 ·
The shifts can be delayed at the throttle linkage. The orange thick cable is the bowden cable, and has a plastic threaded shaft. Loosen it a few turns and go for a 15min drive.

5th is right around 2100 at 65mph. remember the shifter clicks left to right in drive. To the right you are in over drive(5th) to the left you are in 4th.

I'd go just fix reverse at lease you know you did it, but finding a used one on these high mileage W140's is rare. Nearly all W140's at the self-serve junk yards are because of a tranny problem, unless it is crashed car..

All the best,

MArtin
 
#12 ·
It seems that everyone that pulls these apart finds that a total rebuild was needed correct? Is the reverse repair fairly simple compared to a full rebuild?

Would it do any good to replace the fluid and filter?

How long do you think I could drive it like it is before something bad happens?

Does the reverse issues affect the rest of the trans as far as damaging it?

The fluid I drained out was very dirty.
 
#14 ·
What state and city do you reside? I would go practice at the self-serve junk yard? Disasemble the front and re-assemble it...

A)The hardest thing is to install the lip seals going the right direction. You goof this one, and reverse will not work...

B)The next is to jingle the clutch pack back and forth, so it sits all the way down on the spline of the shaft. The error margin is about 2 to 3 millimeter(this is the thickness of steel and friction. This process can take 10 to 30 minutes if you have never done it, and it can get annoying.. I can do this in a mater of a minute of two(NOW)... I'll have to give a link to a video as I know this is coming across as french. I would have the transmission standing up, so you can measure the depth from the rim to the clutch pack, so you know how deep to go down, yet in the beginning it is grand mystery, and the negative to this is you will not be able to close-up the case, you will say "I'm real close". You will have a gap of 1 or 2 millimeter between the case and the pump, and you will say WTF!!! That is what it is as the clutch pack is not all the way down. My procedure is to measure the depth of the clutch packs in the case, so I know how far down they need to be. The same applies to the depth of how far the torque converter is down from the edge of the transmission to the mounting lug, Or YOU WILL NOT CLOSE THE TRANSMISSION TO THE ENGINE. I spun my wheels for about hour the first time with the torque converter, and on a 722.6 torque converter it is harder because it has three steps, yet on your transmission it has two steps. Once the transmission is all bolted up to the engine. You should be able to spin the torque converter inside with a screw driver, or YOUR FINGERS(I can do it with my fingers)...Not to scare you this is the realities. I can do one of these rebuilds in about 15 hours...

Now, you could rebuild the rear as those were my most worn clutches. The rear is much easier. It can even be done while the transmission is still mounted on the car, but that would not help reverse..

About the filter and fluid, it would do good if you continue to drive the car while you study-up on what to do...

Not sure how long it will last, but if you get this grinding noise when you stop. You have begun to loose the springs. Like in this thread:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/2261426-722-5-reverse-problem.html

You got to stop using the car, but you could be grinding away the steels in clutch pack.

If the fluid is gritty it is the frictions falling apart because they are approaching the substrate of each. If the fluid is black, I have found it is coming from the B2 piston seal, and that is super easy to replace...It is the black oring...

Here is the process:

How to Replace Your Oil Cooler Lines

See my picture 4112, and the B2 is on the left

I have a pile of pictures on the 722.5 Send me A flash drive I can load it up. If you send me 16gig I give you everything on all these transmission with about 1000 Pictures...

All the best,

MArtin
 

Attachments

#16 ·
Martin thanks for all this help. You are awesome.

I live near Chicago IL in the west burbs.

So it sounds like I could pull the trans and best case change the lip seal and possibly b2 piston seal and this may be enough.

I guess the big question is what would you suggest?

Pulling a trans at a yard just to take it apart requires more time than I would have.

How about this. I ship the trans to you you build it and we ship it back. This may be cost effective.
 
#18 ·
Write..

You are welcome, I'm as dumb as everyone else here. I just play with transmission a little more...

Chicago, Brrrrrr... I had to turn on the A/C today. I was cooking in Vegas... Sorry, you could not give me a house in Chicago. I got thin skin, and run cooler than the average guy by about 10 to 15 degrees, so when it is 20 degrees for everyone it is 5 for me. When it is 130 it is 115 for me, and I am loving it....

I do not know you, and I do not know if you will run and hide :eek once you crack open the tranny, so I would say" If you can fix the reverse seal, it feels like peanuts" You are ready to conquer the rest of it, and you could decide that.

Transmission work requires mental organization, and only do it when you are not rushed, or interrupted.

No time, Hummm.. No one has time. One has to make time...Just like if a love-one gets hurt, and one has to take them to the hospital-They interrupted your busy life.. I work 12hr days, I just make time...

Ship me the trans? Sounds great, but it is minimum of $500 to $600 in freight round trip. Not practical if you have a problem. Sounds glamorous, but not practical...

Martin
 
#19 ·
Martin,

I am certian I canfix the trans for me it's a matter of is it worth the time and trouble. I have other projects as we all do. This is not a mint condition car here. Interior is nice and the miles low at 130k but unfortunately its a Midwest car and has some rust. Odd that these cars seem to rust badly around here, not sure what mercedes did but they had a problem with the w140 having rust. I have a 68 280se that is a local car that has less rust.

I did not think the freight would be that much I could certainly check.

I went for a ride and I have no 5 th I can move the shifter side to side and no gear change at highway speed. What causes that problem?

If anyone has a bad trans they do not need I would think repairing that and then swapping mine out would work better for me. If it turned into to much work I could take it to a shop.

Thanks again for the advice keep it coming
 
#21 ·
Yes I could do either I suppose. I would like to drive it as my winter/spare car. I also have a w208 clk55 that I store for the winters. The S is very nice for what I need and since it already has rust making it a winter car isn't an issue for me.

What causes the no 5th overdrive problem ?
 
#26 ·
I talked to a guy that does a lot of these swaps motors and trannys. He said he just did this and the only difference was the linkage. Had to swap some external bits from the 508 to the 507. Good to know it is a viable swap.

Martin I have read through your threads and if you ever get a chance to really do a diy with pics of one of these rebuilds it would be really helpful. Not that you haven't already been the best resource I have found.

I have a local shop quoting me $1400 with a new torque converter and rebuild. Hard to not just go this route.
 
#27 ·
Sadly i can only share my time so much, and to do a whole diy is an act a congress. It swallows A LOT of time, and do not think I'm a magical Typest . I peck at the keyboard. When i write responses they take an hour or two. Per response. Im very slow to type and it is just impossible. Im replying nearly every free moment to someone on the threads from the moment i wake up untill i go to sleep. I do for the love of the cars not because i like to troll as some do.

The price for the rebuild is great price. I'd jump on that. Most places charge $2500 to $4000
Martin
 
#30 ·
I hope your not offended Martin I certainly did not intend to do so.

I understand the effort, my thought was exactly that you do spend a lot of time replying to threads this is obvious and appreciated by all. A complete DIY would be great though may knock some of us off the fence.

$1400 seems to good to be true I am worried that once the guy gets into the job he will tack on to the price. Really difficult to make money at that price.

On another note, I have been driving the car a bit and I really like the W140 chassis. I have owned 400 cars which may sound crazy, but I have. Some for short periods as flips I guess you would say. But I have always driven them and sorted them for a bit. I have owned several mercedes over the years and all most all of them were cars that I called my own. They do not tend to be good cars to resale lots of reasons for that but mostly people are just unaware and afraid of them. Those that are not are generally looking for the perfect car and difficult to deal with. I guess that leaves people like us, willing to do some work and maintenance to drive some of the best cars ever produced.

Anyway the W140 really reminds me of my W116 450sel odd as it may sound. That car was built in 1973 and in the 90,s was my daily driver. Loved that car. Still miss it.
 
#28 ·
Wrightbenz there is plenty of info about to perform a DIY transmission rebuild if you choose that route. Use other peoples info as a guide along with the rebuild manual, as you will find your own way to do things and your own order of what to do as you go. I had plans to do a DIY guide with pics on my 722.4 rebuild but it is way too much extra time.

$1400 is a great quote.
 
#29 ·
My 722.508 is at 270,000 miles and I kinda looked into rebuilds or rebuilding it.

I milked it along with some Mobil 1 ATF until I could give it some attention. Reverse was really slow on cold mornings with the level at add but it worked fine with the fluid level on the high hot mark.

The modulator wasn't leaking fluid into the intake but it would not hold a vacuum....replaced it and set the pressure to 58. The operation really did not change.

The car did some 2-3 shift indecision one night so I parked it. I ordered a couple k1 kits, febi fluid and a oem rebuild gasket set.

Pulled the pan off and the friction plate dregs did not seem too bad. Installed the k1 and wrestled the pan seal...drama when it rolls in))

Kinda putting it all back together and noticed my decomposed shifter bushings, or I should say the lack of on the shifter end. Made some out of some rubber hose as a temporary solution.

Shifts great with the new k1 and definitive gear selector placement....I know I am staving off the inevitable but she is happy for now. A few more tranny threads and I will dive in....keep them coming))
 
#31 ·
No offending, i just can only share what i can. To do a true tranny DIY one has to hold one at every step( pre step). kinda like giving driving directions with the explanation of the surroundings not just turn left, and turn right... that is why I have 800 pictures of 722.6 rebuild...

The W140 has everything going for it in the wrong direction-No resale-"Expensive to fix"-If you part one, you will make nothing(not worth the effort), and it is a car with a higher interval of service. it is just natural by the laws of physics that for a Square Foot a volume W140 has more chances of failure because of higher parts count, so this makes the 3 to 10 times less reliable than the average car...Everything is complex-more things to break-down. Look at the rear-end of the W140 it is a work of art with links going all different directions. While the average car will have a axle with two shocks and two coils...

The best car for long drives, and head-on crashes. You will survive 100mph head on into a wall, and the car will not loose parts-the hood will remain closed-engine/trans/rear-end will absorb the energy. Today's cars will eject the that front-wheel drive engine/sub-frame at 50mph wall crash(25mph head on...who drives 25mph...???)

The w140 best car ever...

Martin
 
#32 ·
Yes, if you look at a lot of crash test videos, you will notice that cars are just designed to get a maximum stars for the crash tests. It's not hard to imagine how with todays powerful FEA software.

The crash tests are very specific and at very low speeds. Throw in the infinite amount of real world crash possibilities with much greater speeds and it's not hard to realize a 5 star car can still be lethal.

There was a recent study here done on road injurys in Australia. Deaths are down, but survivors with physical impairment are up and the study mentioned it was from airbags. Airbags are cheap, 2 tonnes of crumple zone is not.

I've got a parts car getting stripped right back here in the garage, the amount of formed steel in front of the passenger compartment is more akin to an APC that a normal car. In the boot you can see where the c-pillars extend right down to the chassis rails, basically a full roll cage that assists with the rear crumple zone. The B-Pillars also are no joke, you could form the A,C and B pillars in a "normal" car from the metal in the W140 B-pillars alone.

I would not want to be in a car or light truck that was unfortunate enough to cross paths with a W140. The W140 will use the other "object" as it's crumple zone.

Sorry for the off topic rant....
 
#33 ·
Points taken. I understand what the car is. I once purchased a 1989 BMW 750 IL with a hole it it's mighty V12 block. I picked up a really nice used engine and spend many hours swapping them in my garage without a lift. It was a really complex car, pushing the limits at the time for sure. In the end I enjoyed what I had and what I had accomplished. Not many people can at they have done that engine replacement.

As for the W140. I would say it is even better than the bimmer not as handsome in some respects but very well done.

Current status.

The car is running cold I suspect that the tstat is stuck open takes forever to get to temp and it really never does. Thi may be causing some of the shifting issues I am having. Certainly not the reverse but the forward gears and no OD.

Abd and asr lights came on ... Also may be Causing some issues.

Advice on both ? Thanks
 
#34 ·
Swapping over a V12 or any engine for that matter without a lift is something beyond what I want to attempt, excellent work!

You mentioned early shifts, adjust Bowden cable. These transmissions have temperature compensation built in, if it plays up it will result in shifting artefacts, not early shifting.

I gather no 5th is a common problem wit the 722.5, not something I am familiar with myself but a search should result in the info you need.

ABS/ASR check brake light switch.

Please update your details so everyone can see your car without having to go back to the OP to refresh our memory.
 
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