HELP!...Timing chain adjustment and engine wont turn!

[miroxz]

after fixing everything related to idle,..finally mechanic decided the need to re-adjust timing due to a subtle idle.
when he looked up timing data it was the same for ALL V8's 92-95. He said mine was NOT the same as data so he thought thats where the problem was. (there was a difference in 4 links!!)
Anyhow, he does the "new adjusted" timing and the engine wont turn
NOW what?...he will re-turn to old timing+1 link diff. and see.

ANY help from experts would be appreciated.

[Brett San Diego]

I thought the mechanic was supposed to be the expert. If not, clearly, you need to find an expert. I think I have only seen one person post here who has said he was an MB technician, and that is "Mercedes Mechanix," who seems to have developed a split personality lately, signing as "Dietrich and Robert."

You might try MercedesShop - Mercedes Benz Parts and Technical Information. There are several MB trained technicians who regularly post over there.

Brett

Added 2/17... I forgot about "Eric242340" whom I believe is also an MB trained technician.

[Mercedes Mechanix]

Thank you Brett, by split personality what does that mean? If you would prefer, we could move onto our own sign up if that would assist? We have both worked for years with and lately for Hibbo. The last five or so years he has only done pro-bono assists since retirement.
We are firm believers in working together and helping everyone we can, Hibbo is a Pro-Bono fanatic.

To answer the timing chain and now engine will not turn over. How did the mechanic adjust your engines timing and the Timing chain? Is it still zero'd at 45 deg before TDC and all four cams at their pin mark with both intake cams retarded? Will the engine manually turn with the tensioner loose, not removed (manually turn by hand at crank slowly only, to avoid chain jumping) Always remove the plugs to remove compression, etc?

Dietrich and Robert (two seperate Benz Technicians filling in for Dutch)

[Glide Ride]

D & R,

While I can't speak for Brett, but I can speak for me, and I don't think his response was intended to be rude.

In the short time that I have been a member of this forum, it's clear to me that Brett is a very detailed, observant and conscientious BenzWorld member. I think his comment about "split personality" is only a reflection of his observation that your signature had changed.

I apologize if I'm sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, but I would hate for this forum to loose a valued resource.

Frank

[miroxz]

Originally Posted by Mercedes Mechanix

Thank you Brett, by split personality are you being rude or what does that mean? Why would you say something as that when Robert and I have just been filling in for Dutch as he is away on a prolonged vacation. If you would prefer, we could move onto our own sign up if that would assist? Have we done or said something irresponsible that would require a remark as that? We have both worked for years with and lately for Hibbo. The last five or so years he has only done pro-bono assists since retirement.
Perhaps this site was a mistake as we were told by many local Techs, Hibbo disagreed and signed on anyway using another BW members computer, due to spending so much time on his boat and the cost of his SAT link. Hibbo asked us to try and help in his stead, We also Technician from Germany and Robert ihas been in States longest and has worked as Technician in local Benz Dealership before retirement...his career was Benz and lot of school since, now has some kind of Physics consultant and enjoys repairing electronics for us and helping with areas we get stuck on. We are firm believers in working together and helping everyone we can.

To answer the timing chain and now engine will not turn over. How did the mechanic adjust your engines timing and the Timing chain? Is it still zero'd at 45 deg before TDC and all four cams at their pin mark with both intake cams retarded? Will the engine manually turn with the tensioner loose, not removed (manually turn by hand at crank slowly only, to avoid chain jumping) Always remove the plugs to remove compression, etc?

Dietrich and Robert (two seperate Benz Technicians filling in for Dutch)

Thanks Mechanix!..i will double check all info you mentioned. I dont think anything was meant by Brett beyond the usual tease ;-)). you can handle that And triple thanks for your expert opinion. EVERYBODY can appreciate that !!

Originally Posted by Glide Ride

D & R,

While I can't speak for Brett, but I can speak for me, and I don't think his response was intended to be rude.

In the short time that I have been a member of this forum, it's clear to me that Brett is a very detailed, observant and conscientious BenzWorld member. I think his comment about "split personality" is only a reflection of his observation that your signature had changed.

I apologize if I'm sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, but I would hate for this forum to loose a valued resource.

Frank

I 2nd that. Brett has been a great help to many members

Finally,...who cares if i have 2 people or even five at the end of my sig. Thats why we have SCREEN names

Just chill and watch that nice "starmark" on your hood as you stroll down your favorite street and enjoy.

[Diesel Nut!]

seeing as these engines are "interference" engines ie valves and pistons collide if not timed correctly.. he has it out so far that you have a valve mating with a piston. I cannot for the life of me see ANY engine moving 4 links! What made him think there is an issue anyway with the chain. Benz chains have been known to stretch causing minor problems in timing. Depending on the mileage on your benz you may want to consider a new chain. I think ur vehicle is new enough that it has the double roller chain. If it is still a single roller chain. consider the upgrade!.

[miroxz]

Originally Posted by Mercedes Mechanix

To answer the timing chain and now engine will not turn over. How did the mechanic adjust your engines timing and the Timing chain? Is it still zero'd at 45 deg before TDC and all four cams at their pin mark with both intake cams retarded? Will the engine manually turn with the tensioner loose, not removed (manually turn by hand at crank slowly only, to avoid chain jumping) Always remove the plugs to remove compression, etc?

Dietrich and Robert (two seperate Benz Technicians filling in for Dutch)

Attempt#1-Unfortunately he based timing off of original marks...engine turned but STILL has a slightly rough idle.

Attempt#2-He based timing off of another S500 he had in his shop...compared to this, chain was off by 4 links...engine didnt turn when put back together.

He is using ALLDATA and it says there are no collaboration/mark-differences across ALL M119 engines.

I noticed that he used an arrow/pin in the engine for marking. He didnt know what i meant by "retarding cams" however he did slide something to the side, with a flat screwdriver when i was there.

I hope this makes sense.

[Mercedes Mechanix]

We understand and actually he (we) suffer (s) from/with Schizophrenia (disambiguation). and well so do I or is it we, maybe I meant the other I which would be them or he mean us? Or maybe they meant the other him which would be the other Robert and Dietrich and then we would have to include Dutch.... which is really the one that has the problem with Schizophrenia and of course this is a little more of an issue than what was mentioned in the other posting. Which was what again? Maybe one of us really cared, but there are so damn many of us here some days, heck how else could we do all the darn Pro-bono work that Dutch piles on our plate while he and his wife are out playing....uuuhhhh I did not say that, he did! Over there.... uuuhhh is that a mirror?
OOOOhh SSSSHH ____ ____! Some days are well... interesting around here!

Yeah we can all take a joke and all is in good fun, Robert and I enjoy this site and for the most part... wish we could be more involved. Since Dutch has been gone, we have really enjoyed reading and watching the different problems and how each person seems to handle everything so well and professional!

Right now we have a friend that is removing the passenger head and reinstall on an 119.971-12 engine. seems there is an anomoli with the surface area for the timing chain tensioner and as everyone is aware... that is a DEAD-END port for that little guy (tensioner that is) and his job is number one for the power plants timing chain!. We will try and get him to get as many images as he can and post a good write-up for the Benz-world family!

And of course, As for what we all have read, Brett is a good member and has added alot to Benzworld in whole. His descriptive work as to repairs and follow through is excellent!

We agree with you both and many times written word is not fully understood.

Robert has allowed us to use his garage in Orlando on several occasions. This assists with repair locally, use of his computer room to follow up at home (Dutchland) and keep in contact with Dutch... as well as follow up with Benzworld is great.

We also enjoy the hell out of the Bar-B-Q cooking and their Bonus room wide wide wide TV. Yes, we enjoy the States major! Since coming here and retiring.... let us play with the Benz and enjoy life and all is well with everything....OH YES!

Regards, Robert and Dietrich

[Mercedes Mechanix]

Originally Posted by miroxz

Attempt#1-Unfortunately he based timing off of original marks...engine turned but STILL has a slightly rough idle.

Attempt#2-He based timing off of another S500 he had in his shop...compared to this, chain was off by 4 links...engine didnt turn when put back together.

He is using ALLDATA and it says there are no collaboration/mark-differences across ALL M119 engines.

I noticed that he used an arrow/pin in the engine for marking. He didnt know what i meant by "retarding cams" however he did slide something to the side, with a flat screwdriver when i was there.

I hope this makes sense.

OK, This is a V8 119.97XXX power plant yes? If not advise us.... settings are different... as to crank local for a V12, etc

1. IS the crank harmonic balancer locked at 45 degrees (avail from baumtools.com, ask for Tim).
2. ARE all four cams pinned (both avail from Baumtools.com) and locked at the 6.5 mm hole marks (see image below with pins with red sleeve) Once the crank is locked at 45 degrees, you can remove the chain tensioner (using rags to cover the alternator) and slowly position the cams to the 6.5 mm holes
3. With the cams pinned (so they cannot move)!
4. Now using the images below (if you notice the little notch in the indent is at the left...this is the advance position and must be far right on both when the cam is at 45 deg and cams pinned on initial setup ONLY.... now read on), start pulling the chain CCW, starting at the crank timing gear and moving counterclockwise (move the intake came sprockets fulling CCW and the small timing ie retard/advance indent will move to the extreme end of the small opening. With the pins in place, the sprockets on the intake cam will move into the "RETARD Position" see images below and slowly move the intake "sprocket only (remember the cam is pinned and will stay in position). The sprocket is part of the cam position sensor assy network and by setting the sprocket in the retard position while the chain is being positioned.... the chain can then reposition into the advanced position for idle adjustment and acceleration..... otherwise your idle will be crappy and your acceleration will suX. ALSO, keep in mind that your vehicle will require a RELEARN sequence...as a child it will need to relearn the acceleration and decel timing as well as idle and shift points. All of this will reoccur in the LH-SFI and CAN network, etc.

5.Now LISTEN WITH BOTH EARS, I don't care what yanyone has told you, as Engineers, we tried our best to design this machine to function as designed. Please just set it back up as designed and the LH-SFI with the assistance of the double AC sinewave of the cam position sensor and both cam adjustors will readjust your timing and correct for any errors up to a maximum of six degrees of stretch.... four nominal.

6.It is important to leave all for cams pinned and the crank locked at "45 deg BTDC". DO NOt change anything. Now ensure both intake cam sprockets are moved full CCW to full RETARDED position as in pic below, note the small indent on back and it will be as looking from rear viewing foorward, the indent will be to right on both intake cams.... or as viewing from the radiator side, front of engine....the little indent will be to left on backside on "BOTH" intake cams.. NOW slowly move the chain across the sprocket teeth and across the passenger intake and exhaust cam. As long as chain is tight and both intake cams are retarded, then all is fine.

7.Now sometimes this is a bitch (if it is within a half link then just move to one link or the other and move on, but be consistent with all sprockets as possible) with a new chain and you can only move a tooth or so at a time, but be patient and ensure the intakes cam sprockets stay retarded and the chain has NO slack until across the passenger exhaust cam. Remember, if you are tight and within a tooth, this alignment and cam adjuster will compensate and make up for minor error and stretch.

NOW, if already pressed the chain, then ensure to press your finger inside the tensioner hole and ensure the tensioner rail moves and takes up the slack while holding the chain across the pass exhaust cam... if it seems tight, then move the crank a smidge or so and check again...but ensure the chain doesn't jump a tooth.. IF SO, using a new tensioner gasket, install the tensioner to torque of 21NM, see #8!

8.The tensioner is torqued to 21 NM, 19 FT Pounds or 228 inch pounds. Make it so Grasshopper!

Now visual the work and see if the pins can be removed and remove them after ensuring the chain has no slack. Now, remove the crank lock (avail from Baum tools) at drivers side flywheel opening if used.

9.Now, using a ratchet and socket, rotate the crank/balancer by hand two revolutions slowly and ensure the pins realigh at 45 degrees.

NOW DON"T FREAK OUT THAT the intake pins don't match at 45 deg's, this is normal and if you use a thin wrench on the third journal adjacent to the CAM Bearing Tower.... you will see that the cam will easily reposition to align same without moving the crank. Now it may move when you remove the wrench due to valve spring pressure, etc. You are just noticing the valve, cam mechanical timing setup in action.

Now go do the EASY RIGHT THING and forget about RE adjusting and put the damn thing back to factory position.

If the above is complete and idle or acceleration is poor after allowing say 25 miles of relearning. Keep in mind that you should clear all codes in the system if present, run her around the neighborhood and recheck DTC and follow up from there. Wishing you good effort with the task.

Check your DTC's and see if any codes pop up regarding the position sensor or cam adjuster. The position sensor tolerance is sometimes in need of a shim to correct the gap between the two magnets and sensor pickup. Or perhaps in need of removal of same. Also ensure BOTH lil magnets are still present, etc.

If an idle issue still occurs after this repair task and DTC not giving readouts, were either of the intake cams, sprocket, spring, retard assembly's disassembled during your repair. These units are easily reassembled incorrectly and can give you a merry ride of diagnostics! If these were disassembled and an idle problem persists, may want to recheck if the retard movement of cam was a problem in chain install! These must be moving easily for proper retard and advance operation.

Regards, Robert and Dietrich

[Brett San Diego]

Originally Posted by Mercedes Mechanix

Thank you Brett, by split personality are you being rude or what does that mean?

Dietrich and Robert (two seperate Benz Technicians filling in for Dutch)

Hi guys. Absolutely meant as a joke. I forgot my smiley. Here's two to make up for it.

Actually, I'm ecstatic to see some true technicians willing to help out on this forum. God knows we can use the help.

My reference to mercedesshop was just to try to help miroxz find a wider audience of technicians. Mercedesshop has several techs who post regularly. I can't really help miroxz with his problem, but I thought I might be able to help him find help.

Brett