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M117/M119 fiddling.

51K views 103 replies 23 participants last post by  Richter Rox 
#1 ·
So, had a few spare moments and parts looking @ me forlornly so decided to see if an M117 front cover and appropriate idler/distributor gears would fit on a 119, which I had hypothosized was how the Japanese AMG techs managed things.

Much to my pleasent surprise, the answer is Yes. It fits Very nicely:thumbsup:

So, the way to go w/ this after a few minutes of pondering there is only one way to do this that makes sense:

One 119.960
One M117 5.6L crank & front cover/accessories etc..
Bore 119 to 100mm..you'll need custom pistons anyway..valve reliefs, different size CC so it wouldn't make sense to Not go to 6L
Grab a late set of 119.970 cams and lifters (more aggressive cam and lighter lifter)

If this doesn't make a 400HP engine I'm not sure what will...plus, you can get @ least 25hp from re-grinds on a stock M119 if you wanted to go one step further on cams. Add P&P, which is kinda pricey on a 32V engine and you'll have even more @ your disposal.

So, now I need to decide which car I want to build one of these for..might be a fun addition to the track SEC...ah, more projects....:surrender:


jono
 

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#5 ·
Would adapting the M117 timing cover just be needed to get the distributor, or is there more than this? If it's just for the dizzy, and given all the rest of the modifications, wouldn't such an engine gain from getting and EDIS wasted spark or COP set-up managed by a stand alone system together with the EFI? Or is the objective to duplcate what AMG Japan was doing by then?

Nice stuff in any case! A manual trans on top of all this would make a great car. Apparently it was offered by AMG with a dual clutch system: http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w12...-mercedes-500-se-rare-euro-8.html#post4565200
 
#6 ·
So, now I need to decide which car I want to build one of these for..might be a fun addition to the track SEC...ah, more projects....:surrender:


jono

OK, here is a conceptual idea:

We are in the middle of the 80s and with the first kid growing and the second on the way, the Porsche 928 is not adapted to the needs of this young and successful head of family anymore. What car to buy? The 300 hp 560SE is a nice option, but it weights nearly two tons and is only available with an automatic trans. The Maserati quattroporte is a bit more nimble but is lacking in power and the style is not to everybody's taste. So AMG is approached to build W126 sedan with the following specs: 1^00 kg max, 350 to 400hp and a 5 speed manual trans. The idea is to have a family car that can outperform a Porsche 928S while keeping the car's understated class more suited for visiting clients than the bling of a sports car.

AMG sources an early W126 300 SE that only weights 1520 kg, which is 300 kg less than the 560. The Iron block L6 and alloy block V8 have a similar weight, so the difference is mainly in the lack of equipment like A/C, electric windows and sunroof, ABS, insulation etc. AMG further lightens the car by fitting aluminum bonnet and trunk lid out of a diesel. It shoehorns a 380 hp 6.0L DOHC engine mated to a Getrag 265 5 speed manual transmission and a 2.85 lsd rear diff. The car weights 1550 kgs. That's 4kg/hp weight/power ratio, better than a Porsche 928 GTS (4.63 kg per hp). With proper work on the chassis and suspension AMG delivers a real 4 door GT, painted in 904 blue and with no external sign of modification. A very classy sleeper.
 
#8 · (Edited)
the cover allows you to run the dizzy, yes. the Japanese cars also ran the M117's alt/ps'ing etc.. not sure what they did w/ the compressor.

I like this as you can retain all the stock wiring, no clearancing of the front frame rails to clear the 119 accessories setup etc..


so yes, part of the novelty here is to duplicate what they did.. there would be more power yet if one ran stand alone.

I saw that thread on the AMG/MB offerings RE: manual trans, Very Nice!

Jono
 
#10 ·
no changes in wiring/accessories/frame rails etc in your W126.

Yer not going to get 400HP from any 2V engine that's comfortable to run on the street :p
 
#13 ·
So you need to swap out the crank because of the drives for the dizzy+ the harmonic ballancer and belt drives etc ?
do you think it would be possable to machine the M119 crank or do a custom gear drive to save swaping out the crank and fitting custom pistons?
That would make for a very cost effective conversion

As to the mounting of the ancileries hopefully someone has a pic of a Jap AMG m117/9
out of the car they can post....
I wonder if there is enough meat on the front of the twin cam heads to drill and tap to mount those parts..
 
#14 ·
If you want to fit a manual transmission there is a detacheable bellhousing used on the W210 420 that fits the M119 engine block and will give the center for the trans input shaft. You can use a 3.5 flywheel and machine it down until it takes the M119 starter ring. Other than that I think it will bolt straight on the M119 crankshaft. It will take a BMW 240mm clutch disc that in turn will fit the Getrag 265 Transmission input shaft spline pattern. I also believe the 3.5 pilot bearing will fit the Getrag input shaft. So fabrication is just to make an adaptor plate between that W210 belhousing and the Getrag 265, as well as fitting an hydraulic release bearing in that bellhousing that will push on the 3.5 pressure plate. 3.5 clutch and pressure plate have been mounted on turbocharged 4.5 M117 which were over 400 hp and held the torque with no pb (dixit the guy who did it in Scandinavia, I could try and unearth the threads if needed).
 
#15 ·
nono, you swap the crank for the displacement bump, and since you need custom pistons to fit the stroker crank there's no good reason not to bump out to 100mm for 6L fun.
You Could run a stock m119 and Not bump displacement, but if I'm gonna go through the trouble I'm going to Do It..:)

No pics, no one on the site owns a 117/119 hybrid.

In the pics I have seen, the 117 brackets are all mounted up, so I'm going to say Yes.

Jono
 
#16 ·
nono, you swap the crank for the displacement bump, and since you need custom pistons to fit the stroker crank there's no good reason not to bump out to 100mm for 6L fun.
You Could run a stock m119 and Not bump displacement, but if I'm gonna go through the trouble I'm going to Do It..
I think thats what the Jap cars had done anyway so it fits into the whole keeping it authentic thing
Ive never seen one not refered to as a 6.0

Keeping the crank stock makes it a project that can be put together at home on a budget and in NZ the cost of a second hand m119 5.0 is around the same if not slightly less than the cost of a m117 5.6



Fitting the ancileries looks like a simple tap and mount job in the pic
 
#17 ·
just has to be a 960/KE/SL M119..all the other 970's won't work..different deck height etc..

but yes, it could be a fun budget build for more power.

:)

jono
 
#25 ·
The reliability and lower relative maintenance of an M119 engine coupled with the relative ease of installation (M117 wiring harness and engine accessory layout) makes this a pretty neat project.

Early year R129's with the M119.960 engines will probably be available as the cost to maintain these cars will, unfortunately, result in quite a few engines available for parting out.

Clearly, the Japan AMG market embraced this as a better solution to the quirky 32v M117 AMG engines. This market made a lot of W126, W124, W140 and R129 6.0L cars, as evidenced by the number for sale in Japan.

Al
 
#26 ·
So, had a few spare moments and parts looking @ me forlornly so decided to see if an M117 front cover and appropriate idler/distributor gears would fit on a 119, which I had hypothosized was how the Japanese AMG techs managed things.

Much to my pleasent surprise, the answer is Yes. It fits Very nicely:thumbsup:

jono
Glad I could inspire. :thumbsup:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w126-s-se-sec-sel-sd/1566287-amg-4v-heads-2.html#post4547085

I had posed the question on how this conversion might have been accomplished during one of my visits to Metric Motors back when my 5.4 crank was being ground.

One of their engine builders simply pointed out the similarities of the early 119 and later 117 and said it was pretty straight forward conversion. They had several customers in the past that requested the 5.6 displacement increases to their 5 Litre 119 and the cranks are interchangeable. As mentioned before they do not recommend 100mm cylinder bores due to lack of material for proper heat displacement.

This will be a fantastic breakthrough for the 126 community. I look forward to more progress! Onwards and upwards! :elefant:
 
#27 ·
I've been wanting to fiddle about with this since I first saw pics of a 117/119 hybrid on Japanese yahoo. The proper set of conditions Finally came together so that only 5 minute of fiddling was required b/w the regular day to day:) I'd read the cranks swapped on the early engines, but again, until you DO it ya don't know For Sure.

I don't see a problem w/ 100mm bores... The way I PUNISHED my SOHC 6L AMG engine @ the track before taking it apart, ie @ the end of each session (16 1/2 hour sessions over 3 track w/e's) I was running 110-115C on a 200K mile engine @ 140+ mph and I still didn't kill it..!
Running the AMG 6L 32V @ the track, the engine never got over 90C.

Now the 101/2/3 mm overbores, those do make me Nervous.
 
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#28 ·
I have been toying with this hybrid idea as a backburner project one day and read all the possible info on doing this M119/M117 hybrid conversion by taking the M119 bores out to 100mm with an M117 crank & rods and adding custom forged pistons.

I could have access to a 1997 M119 5ltr complete engine (which i assume is an M119:970) and reading this thread it mentions you need an M119:960 engine as a basis to fit an M117 front timing cover as the there is a difference in deck height between 2 engines.

What appeals to me with the later M119 engine is it is set up with EFI rails & injectors and just needs an aftermarket ECU (like Haltec or Motec) to run it and even have the added possibility of running a manual trans

I am not sure if Jono ever got aby further with the project as he had all the components to piece it together and no longer visits this forum since all the drama last year.

Open to anyone throwing some constructive idea's about this hybrid option but it sounds like the later M119 blocks are not going to marry up with the M117 timing cover!!! and these need the M117 560 crank to stroke them -
I wonder how much difference in the timing cover fit and if it is a work around by modifying the timing cover height to make it fit the increased deck height
Anyone know how much difference in deck height between the 2 blocks?
 
#39 ·
I have been toying with this hybrid idea as a backburner project one day and read all the possible info on doing this M119/M117 hybrid conversion by taking the M119 bores out to 100mm with an M117 crank & rods and adding custom forged pistons.
Why build a hybrid, instead of just building a 6L M119...? I must be missing something.



I could have access to a 1997 M119 5ltr complete engine (which i assume is an M119:970) and reading this thread it mentions you need an M119:960 engine as a basis to fit an M117 front timing cover as the there is a difference in deck height between 2 engines.
No... a 1997 M119 will be 119.98x, which is NOT the same. And, all .98x engines have open-deck blocks so you can't bore them out.



What appeals to me with the later M119 engine is it is set up with EFI rails & injectors and just needs an aftermarket ECU (like Haltec or Motec) to run it ...
Why use aftermarket injection? Get a closed-deck 119.97x (LH EFI, not ME EFI) and you can get a 6L LH ECU, plug & play, all factory stuff. Can't do that with ME (.98x) for various reasons. Not all .97x engines are closed-deck, btw... gotta check the serial numbers. The switch to open deck happened in early 1994 model year production.



Open to anyone throwing some constructive idea's about this hybrid option but it sounds like the later M119 blocks are not going to marry up with the M117 timing cover!!!
Remind me why you need an M117 timing cover...?

:confused:
 
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