Quaife Limited Slip Differential QDF5V - Page 4 - Mercedes-Benz Forum
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#31 (permalink) Old 12-05-2009, 06:01 PM
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Question: Is this for your W126, or your W124? I'm still trying to find out if it will work in a 124/129 housing with ASR (i.e., 500E).

gsxr

I asked Quaife about a unit for my 96 600SL ESP diff which I believe is the same as your 124/129 housing without the ASR sensors. They said they don't make one so I'm willing to bet the 126 or late 107 wont interchange. Attached are pictures of the 560SL and 1996 SL600 diffs for comparison. This winter I will attempt to put the LSD carrier from the 560 into the 600 case but all indications I have so far are that the carrier bearings will be further apart.

By the way can you tell me how many teeth are on the ASR toothed wheels inside the Diff.
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#32 (permalink) Old 12-06-2009, 04:32 AM
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W124 ASD is basically same(discs between friction ones are different) as W201 16V LSD - I have many differentials in my garage.
5 friction discs both sides, W126 LSD diff is absolutely same but bigger one. I just opened my 500SEC differential to make there better locking mechanism. I have done a lot of these for W201/W124 ASD/LSD.
Yesterday I did it for some 500SE and it has open differential - it`s not the best result but it`s better than one wheel drive.

I think 1-gen straight-6 W126 use same size differential housing as W124. Basically W124 ASD/LSD could be mounted inside W126 housing.

Edit: Picture of my LSD unit.




Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
Question: Is this for your W126, or your W124? I'm still trying to find out if it will work in a 124/129 housing with ASR (i.e., 500E).





I've never done this personally, but it's my understanding that you don't ensure the half-shaft stub axles stay in. Supposedly, once installed, the axles don't move out enough to move past the seal. Some of the 190E-16 crowd has used spring blocks in their stock clutch-type diffs to increase lockup, and this also doesn't allow use of circlips. So far, I haven't heard of any problems with the circlips missing...


MB 230GE ; MB 560SEC Turbo/Manual gearbox ; MB 320TE ; Ford Capri MK3 TT

Last edited by hents99; 12-06-2009 at 04:59 AM. Reason: Picture
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#33 (permalink) Old 12-06-2009, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by roncallo View Post
I asked Quaife about a unit for my 96 600SL ESP diff which I believe is the same as your 124/129 housing without the ASR sensors. They said they don't make one so I'm willing to bet the 126 or late 107 wont interchange.
The 210mm 124/129 diff housing is not the same as the SL600 diff housing. The SL600 (through 1998) used a W140 diff housing, W140 carrier, W140 ring & pinion, and W140 flanges. Totally different setup. I don't know the dimensions of the 140 carrier, but they could be correct, that the QDF5V isn't the same dimensions. More details about the difference between the normal 210mm diff (124/129, 1.3L fluid capacity) and the reinforced 210mm diff (W140, 1.4L fluid capacity) is in this PDF document.



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Attached are pictures of the 560SL and 1996 SL600 diffs for comparison. This winter I will attempt to put the LSD carrier from the 560 into the 600 case but all indications I have so far are that the carrier bearings will be further apart.
Pretty sure that won't work. The 560SL has 2.47 gears, the SL600 has 2.65 gears. Even if the SL600 diff didn't use all W140 parts, the carriers are different dimensions between 2.47 and 2.65 gearsets, due to the larger diameter of the pinion gear.



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By the way can you tell me how many teeth are on the ASR toothed wheels inside the Diff.
No, I'm not sure, but there is a photo of the axle flange on my website here - you might be able to count the teeth? The output voltage from the ASR sensor is adjusted via precision shims between the sensor and housing. It's obscenely sensitve, a few hundredths of a mm changes the signal significantly.

Last edited by gsxr; 12-06-2009 at 09:34 AM.
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#34 (permalink) Old 12-06-2009, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by hents99 View Post
W124 ASD is basically same(discs between friction ones are different) as W201 16V LSD - I have many differentials in my garage. 5 friction discs both sides, W126 LSD diff is absolutely same but bigger one.
They are basically the same design, but the 190E-16 LSD is 185mm, while the 500E (and 500SEC / 560SEC) is 210mm. Totally different units. You can only use the 190E-16 with the 185mm diff on W124's with either M103 or diesel engines. Also, the 190E-16 LSD unit only works with 3.07 and 3.27 gearsets... it won't fit with the more common 2.65 or 2.87 gears in 185mm diffs. Check out my spreadsheet here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hents99 View Post
I just opened my 500SEC differential to make there better locking mechanism. I have done a lot of these for W201/W124 ASD/LSD. Yesterday I did it for some 500SE and it has open differential - it`s not the best result but it`s better than one wheel drive.
The spring blocks do work, but it's not without drawbacks. In addition to not being able to use the factory C-lclips to retain the axle flanges, the blocks also wear against the gears, leaving shavings in the gear oil. See the photos below. This might be ok on a race car where the lube is changed frequently, but I don't think I'd want it on a street car.



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Originally Posted by hents99 View Post
I think 1-gen straight-6 W126 use same size differential housing as W124. Basically W124 ASD/LSD could be mounted inside W126 housing.
The W126 and W124 with 210mm housings basically use the same carriers, so yes, the LSD/ASD units are interchangeable, but ONLY for the proper gear ratios. You cannot use the 2.47 LSD from a W126 in a W124/R129 with 2.65 or 2.82 gears, and vice-versa. The carriers have different dimensions. It may work if you swap the entire ring & pinion, but that's absolutley not worth the effort. Get the housing needed for your vehicle, with the gear ratio you want, and then obtain the correct LSD carrier for it - don't try to cobble the wrong LSD carrier in there with spacers!

FYI, I've built an LSD for my W124 300D (with 185mm diff) and also for my 500E (with 210mm diff). Photos are here.





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#35 (permalink) Old 12-06-2009, 08:56 AM
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Hi,

I've been trying to make a good LSD diff out of two W109 6.3 ones. Basically, it's the same system as the W126s, and they even share the same discs, which are now referenced as 129 parts on EPC (thrust washers).

I took both of them apart, measured the thickness of the discs and put back in all the best ones. In practice one set had very little wear, apart from one of the end thick discs immediately against the carrier. I took one from the other set where most of the discs were worn but one of these thick discs.

Now that the diff carrier is back together I would like to know if there is a way to see if what I have done brought back the LSD into specs. I heared of measuring it with gages in between the discs (impossible on the ring side). I could also slide the wheel shafts in and measure the torque needed to have one rotate while the other one is kept still.

Any idea on how to measure if the LSD is too loose, or on the contrary too tight?

Thanks!

Last edited by GGR; 12-06-2009 at 08:58 AM.
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#36 (permalink) Old 12-06-2009, 09:05 AM
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Any idea on how to measure if the LSD is too loose, or on the contrary too tight?
You use the factory procedure to measure the rotation friction torque. If it's too loose, the torque will be too low (i.e., the assembly will rotate too easily). It's impossible to have the torque too high, as you won't be able to assemble the diff if the discs are too thick (the spider gears won't rotate into place). Don't ask how I know! Basically, you want the single-sided friction discs to be as thick as possible, while still being able to assemble the diff.

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#37 (permalink) Old 12-06-2009, 09:23 AM
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Basically, you want the single-sided friction discs to be as thick as possible, while still being able to assemble the diff.
Thanks! This is what I did, and everything went back into place without any problem, though the discs look much tighter in there now. The procedure I have is for the whole rear axle where they measure the torque needed to rotate the front flange. But I don't have any detail regarding the LSD specifically (which won't turn by moving the front flange anyway, as both wheel axles will rotate in the same direction).
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#38 (permalink) Old 12-06-2009, 09:37 AM
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Thanks! This is what I did, and everything went back into place without any problem, though the discs look much tighter in there now. The procedure I have is for the whole rear axle where they measure the torque needed to rotate the front flange. But I don't have any detail regarding the LSD specifically (which won't turn by moving the front flange anyway, as both wheel axles will rotate in the same direction).
It's in the factory procedure - click here. Look at page 12, step #6. I don't have the factory tool shown, so I made up something that works just as well... click here and here for photos of the home-made tool.

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#39 (permalink) Old 12-06-2009, 10:37 AM
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Thanks! That's so useful! I wish I had it when I did the job. I still can measure it as shown. I will have to be a bit creative though as I don't have all these tools. But I think I have a way to do it.

BTW, would you know if there is a similar workshop manual availablre on line for the G76/27 standard gearbox, as on the picture below? This is my next challenge!
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#40 (permalink) Old 12-06-2009, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
The 210mm 124/129 diff housing is not the same as the SL600 diff housing. The SL600 (through 1998) used a W140 diff housing, W140 carrier, W140 ring & pinion, and W140 flanges. Totally different setup. I don't know the dimensions of the 140 carrier, but they could be correct, that the QDF5V isn't the same dimensions. More details about the difference between the normal 210mm diff (124/129, 1.3L fluid capacity) and the reinforced 210mm diff (W140, 1.4L fluid capacity) is in this PDF document.
Thanks for the info.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
Pretty sure that won't work. The 560SL has 2.47 gears, the SL600 has 2.65 gears. Even if the SL600 diff didn't use all W140 parts, the carriers are different dimensions between 2.47 and 2.65 gearsets, due to the larger diameter of the pinion gear.
I'm pretty sure you are right but when I get them apart I will give them a try. I don't see the gear set not fitting as the European 126's also used a 2.65 gearset. Normally that would be made up in the gear thickness. But who knows. I think the real issue will be the bearing spread. Both the 560SL and 96 SL600 use 140 spider gears so the clutch machined side gears should mate up. My other alternative is to try to machine the 140 carrier to accept the 107/126 clutch pack. I wont know what I can do until I get this stuff apart.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxr View Post
No, I'm not sure, but there is a photo of the axle flange on my website here - you might be able to count the teeth? The output voltage from the ASR sensor is adjusted via precision shims between the sensor and housing. It's obscenely sensitve, a few hundredths of a mm changes the signal significantly.
Thanks. It looks like 48 teeth. Which gives me an alternative to the toothed wheels I had made up to replace my outboard ESP speed sensors. See photos. I adjusted mine by carefully machining and tacking in place to a 0.020" gap just like I measured in the SL600. They have been performing flawlessly that way.
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