I have been collecting piece by piece parts that I would need for my project. I have pretty much the main components for my exhaust system, but would like expert advice on what should be done.
My car at the moment is a CA spec 560SEL (1990). Still has the original system in perfect shape. The car has absolutely no spec of rust underneath and all the bolts underneath are clean and clear.
I will be replacing the CA spec for the European "Tri-Y" set up, going with original mercedes downpipes followed by the AMG exhaust system. Here's where the problem is. I have a new AMG system(center portion)
designed for the SEL. However, it does not have a catalytic converter. My city/state does not have any sort of emission testings, but I am not sure whether or not to run the car with or without a CAT.
If I choose to run the car with a CAT, which CAT is recommended for my set up? Adding one of those single magnaflow CAT's may be tricky because I would need 2 and there's literally no room to weld them in side by side without the other pipe touching or being in the way.
If I choose not to run a CAT, would I have a problem with fuel consumption as the car was designed with a CAT?
I will be having the headers ceramic coated before installation, and will also have the downpipes cleaned up and painted. Currently did a quick pic of what I have at the moment and what will be going up.
EDIT: just realized that imageshack considerably shrunk the size of the pictures
__________________ 1990 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL soon to be Euro-spec clone AMG (summer of '09) 1991 Mercedes-Benz 190E AMG (Factory-installed AMG kit, wheels, suspension, steering wheel, accessory trim, exhaust... + Brabus headers)
Well having just gone through all of this, I guess in your situation, there could be some concern about passing the visual emissions inspection.
The car should pass emissions as these 560 engines really run very clean.
On mine, a couple of generic small cats (I think by some company called CATCO) that were made in Asia somewhere were put on there. So they should pass the California visual, though the Satish/Jack Middlebrook car was licensed in Florida, and had no cats whatsover, and ran fine.
I have been told that the Remus muffler gives a 2 hp (dyno proven) extra hp to the ground, and the AMG headers and exhaust and elimination of the cross over should be good for another 25-30 hp. This above and beyond the 238 hp that came with the car, giving me about 265-270 hp or so on this California emissions car (like what you have).
Compare that with the Euro spec 560 KAT engine that puts out about 272 hp. Only the rare euro 560E ECE engine is better, at 300 hp
It's VERY much faster than before, even with the stock US 2:47 (the old 2:82 rear end that Bergwerks used to sell, would be even better and Carl Genberg's had one, and would chirp the tires at start up each time he wanted.)
Not only is it much faster at any speed across the band, the top speed is higher, as on a recent trip to LA last month, I hit and HELD 152 mph for awhile.
And the cork was NOT out of the bottle yet at that speed, there was more left
__________________ "I swear to god, it's like I live in a trailer of common sense, and stare out the window at a tornado of stupidity."
Location: Leona Valley, Republic of Southern California
Posts: 833
There is a dual inlet/outlet high Flow Cat that is also a crossover flow that will fit in the center portion of the duals just behind the down tubes. that is where the bung for the O2 sensor goes(with the crossover dual in and out CAT you utilize only one O2 sensor these are the metal substrate that Jono talks about. Don't know the MFG. but this system is going on my SEC shortly. I could call my muffler guy and find out who makes them. Not terribly expensive either. My guy quoted $600 for Down tubes back with?without Resonators into a dual in/out Magnaflow, including chrome tips. That is the set up I'm running with. Now If I could come up with your system, I'd go that route with Dual in/out cat.
__________________
1989 560 SEC, 040 Blk/ #265 Mushroom "Mariah"
1984 Euro 500 SEC Lapis Blue /#258 Orion Gray, "Blauer Vogel"("Blue Bird")
1983 300SD, Traded
1984 380SE, Sold
2000 Texas Heeler (Aussie-Queensland Heeler X) best dog I ever had. "Sulphie"
Here is the section you'd modify to fit the dual Magnaflow cats:
__________________
Regards,
Axel
1990 SEC, Arctic White w/gray interior, M119.960 326 Hp. engine from 1992 500 SL, 722.370 transmission from 500E (reinforced clutches), 2:82 Differential, Euro Headlamps, 1st Gear Start module, One-Touch Window module and Keyless Entry module all from BergWerks, Bilstein HD Shocks on front axle, H&R lowering springs front and rear, AMG 3-piece 17" rims, 8.5" in the front and 10" at the rear.
Last edited by AxelWulff : 08-16-2008 at 09:25 AM.
Hi Axel, I was thinking of just that earlier... but as you can see, if I were to put that CAT in it would come in contact with the adjacent pipe. Unless there's a 2 in, 2 out CAT by magnaflow?
Do I really need a CAT to have my 560 running the way it ought to? Seems that Jack's car doesn't have one and is running fine. What would I need to do in that case if I choose not to run one?
Another thing I found out is the downpipes don't fit into the AMG center exhaust. The right hand side(driver's side, if you look from the front) goes into the piping just fine, but the other side has the same, identical width and won't mate. Curious as to why its like that as I thought this should be a pretty simply bolt on project.
Regarding accessories... I will need 8 header gaskets and new bolts for all the attachments. Unfortunately, Jono is very busy and is slow in getting back to me regarding other parts I've enquired about. Hopefully he'll chime in more on that and perhaps what I could do regarding the CAT.
Ideally I would like to have everything infront of me, so once I start the exhaust replacement... I can do everything in one day.
Location: Leona Valley, Republic of Southern California
Posts: 833
Here is a schematic of my earlier post. My Smog guy told me that here in CA if the original exhaust went two into one then any changes has to reflect that hence the 2 In/0ut crossover High flow CAT and the set up is placed between the vertical red lines and the bung in placed in the middle so our 1 O2 sensor reading computers will work correctly. Muffler guy confirmed the set up as one he does a lot. He'll do the double CATs, but then one sensor wire goes no where and can give a false reading.
D A DUBLE M N I wish I had this set of pipes on my front yard for pictures...
Another thing I found out is the downpipes don't fit into the AMG center exhaust. The right hand side(driver's side, if you look from the front) goes into the piping just fine, but the other side has the same, identical width and won't mate. Curious as to why its like that as I thought this should be a pretty simply bolt on project.
Snibble, don't be rushed. First find a competent exhaust shop to do the installation for you. Ask around, your local hot-rod community will know of someone who is competent (i.e. not Midas...).
I'm a bit confused at to which part doesn't fit. Are you saying the downpipes do not really fit into the center muffler? In your picture it looks like they're joined.
In any case. A competent muffler shop will give you good advice on how to best fit the catalytic converters and whether to go with two, as I did, or a two-in/two-out like Chadahar is showing.
If you go with two, they can be staggered, like my resonators, so that they don't "bulge" too much.
I think Chadahar's way is best. I thought about that...but do not know which CAT company to get. I hear magnaflow makes good ones. Any other companies I should look at?
Something like this?... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Magna...spagenameZWDVW
Axel... the problem I ran into is with the lower downpipe not fitting into the AMG center exhaust.
The top one fits right in perfectly. However, the lower one won't mate. They have the same diameter and won't slide into one another. Curious as to why it was designed like that. According to AMG literature... OE downpipes should bolt on without problem.
I'd absolutely run cats...given the day/age current state of things...the least we can do is clean up what's coming out of these gas hogs! Besides, the Worst case w/ the cats is a 2hp loss, and in many cases cars are actually making More power w/ a MF cat over a test pipe.
Jack's car did run fine, I also put it on an exhaust analyzer if was off the charts..
Given the circumstances that your pipes already don't match the down pipes I'd do away w/ the AMG center section/resonator and have that fabbed up w/ an allowance for two cats. Besides, the AMG bits are So delicate...I'm a bit worried about them given the cars lengthy periods of inactivity... It would be good to either have the garage heated or @ least try to get some WD 40 coating the internals of the system when you park it for the winter etc..and what ever you do Don't get any salt on it :-P
I'm also wagering the system will still need some tweaking to put in no matter What you do.. Putting those headers on in the car is a PITA..some of the rear fasteners Really don't want you to access them! You'll WANT to have the car on a lift!!
Axel, not sure if you got my voice mail, but let me know if you think you might like to get your diff done etc..give a ring, 404 850 1357
"I swear to god, it's like I live in a trailer of common sense, and stare out the window at a tornado of stupidity."
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