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Dropping a 560 SEC engine into a 380 SEC - Need Advice

8K views 46 replies 20 participants last post by  Chadahar 
#1 ·
Hey,

I was planning to put an 1987 560 SEC engine into my 1982 380 SEC.

I need some advice about
1) whether this will work?
2) if it will work, what kind of problems I may face,
3) what the advantages/disadvanges will be, and
4) what to look for and watch out for in a used 560 engine, reinstallation, etc...

I won't be getting the A/C, ECU, radiator, starter off the 560. Will this be a problem? Can I use these parts from my 380 SEC? Aren't the ECU's different?

Help!


-GTB
 
#2 ·
You are getting yourself into a world of trouble.[:(]

The 560 engine is not a straight swap for the 380. All the engine management and fuel injection systems are different.

You'd be better off sourcing a pre-'86 500 engine which is a straight swap.[:)]
 
#5 ·
hacker-pschorr said:
Is it possible to take the long block from a 560 into a 380? Meaning take the intake manifold fromt he 380 motor, intall on the 560. This way you retain the 380 injection system & computer.
I'm guessing its a no as the block on the 380 is a M116 while the 560's is a M117.
 
#6 ·
First off the computers are different but what people are out to lunch on is an early computer will run a later engine just fine. The difference is you will get the fuel economy characteristics of the early setup but IT WILL RUN!! So just dump the 560 engine in and use ALL of the 380 fuel managment system and ignition. Just forget it's a 560 and hook it up as a 380. Then the issue is hook up the exhaust and deal with the increased radiator load.
 
#8 ·
If you can find a euro 500 engine it'll not only be a straight swap but about the same HP wise as a US 560.
 
#10 ·
I am again pondering this question which I raised almost two years ago.

I am thinking cost and benefit wise, it may be better to put a rebuilt 560, Euro 500, or 420 engine in my 380 SEC.

Can anyone help me find a rebuilt Euro 380 Engine?

I spoke to someone in California who told me that I can put a 560 engine in my 380 SEC if I replaced the following:

1) Engine
2) Complete exhaust system from manifolds to muffler
3) Radiator

He said that I can keep my transmission and A/C and some other things.

I want to repose this question because I think it may be better for me to replace my entire engine instead of dealing with the timing chain issue and what else kinds of hidden engine headaches I most likely will encounter with my car down the line. It seems like everywhere I look deeper into the engine, there is something that is suffering from either neglect or old age. Any thoughts about this. Costs and Feasibility. Where there is a will, there is a way.
 
#11 ·
Well, if you want to put a 560 in as it sat in a 560 you are in for an utter TON of work, in which case sell your car and buy a 560, it will be a LOT cheaper.

Again, your best bet is to find a Euro 500 drive train/donor car. That way you can drop the 500 in along w/ it's FD'er, ign. module, warm up reg.. It will have the manifolds (I would recommend a custom exhaust). Rad is the same b/w all of these cars so I'm not sure what the one fellow was thinking.

Jonathan
 
#12 ·
Okay, can anyone help me find a EURO 500 engine with all the above parts?
 
#14 ·
Strictly speaking, you can't use the existing tranny....the 560 tranny has a hole in the bell-housing for the CPS pick-up....and the 560 has additional wiring on the Euros for the EZL connection for faster downshifts.

It's not too difficult putting the 560 in ....yes wiring loom etc is extra work, but not a big deal....it's a CIS-KE, so just one big fat loom.

But only worth it if you find a ECE 300bhp 560.....no point on a US 560. IF a US 560 is all you can find, then go for a CIS M119 5.0.....326bhp and barely more work than putting in the 5.6 M117. Both will require plenty of work, so may as well go for the engine that gives more poke.

talbir
 
#15 ·
At this point, the things I like most about my car are the suspension and the body, which have a high degree of quality. I am not happy with the engine because I can see there are inferior design elements. Perhaps, too many in my opinion. This may apply all across the board to the M116 and M117's, but I am not an expert. It would be nice to find a reasonable high quality but affordable alternative. The Nissan/Infiniti G-35/45 engine packs an impressive punch. I wonder if people have put any other engines into their SECs.

I wonder where I could find a CIS M119 5.0. Didn't Satish already do this?

There really isn't that much wiring is there? I look around my engine and mostly just see wires for the thermocouples/thermostats, plugs, coil, throttle valve, warm up sensor, ECU, and cold start valve. Most of this is part of the CIS. I don't see what the big deal is all about. Can someone please explain this to me? You're just dropping a damn engine in a car.......people do it all the time in their older muscle cars. What's up with the scenario here. I mean really.


 
#16 ·
I don't mean to steal your thread, but can one put a 560 long block with a euro 500 intake, dist, fd, manifolds ect. I have a pre 86 euro 500 motor that has been sitting outside for a while with a tarp on it. The cams are rusted now. Or do I just replace the cams? If the 560/500 combo will work, that may be a option for you GotTheBenz. It would be easier than a full 560 swap. Just a thought.
 
#17 ·
. Rad is the same b/w all of these cars so I'm not sure what the one fellow was thinking.

Jonathan[/QUOTE]

Mercedes supposedly released a larger radiator for some late 560 models it appears to have one extra core. Euros had a shorter radiator with an oil cooler for high speed driving. Ideally you take a US radiator with an auxiliary oil cooler hooked up to a Euro's oil filter housing.
 
#18 · (Edited)
allnpt0 said:
I don't mean to steal your thread, but can one put a 560 long block with a euro 500 intake, dist, fd, manifolds ect. I have a pre 86 euro 500 motor that has been sitting outside for a while with a tarp on it. The cams are rusted now. Or do I just replace the cams? If the 560/500 combo will work, that may be a option for you GotTheBenz. It would be easier than a full 560 swap. Just a thought.
Yup..did that once already;-)

As for the rad, they are listed as the same b/w all the 380's/560's according to the current EPC etc..


Jonathan
 
#19 ·
There really isn't that much wiring is there? I look around my engine and mostly just see wires for the thermocouples/thermostats, plugs, coil, throttle valve, warm up sensor, ECU, and cold start valve. Most of this is part of the CIS. I don't see what the big deal is all about. Can someone please explain this to me? You're just dropping a damn engine in a car.......people do it all the time in their older muscle cars. What's up with the scenario here. I mean really.


It's because people don't understand how these engines run. I've said this before but here it is again. My 1980 500 SEL Euro has NO computer, NO o2 sensor, NO cats, No pump NOTHING! There are NO wires attached to the fuel distributor because there is no feedback system. So if you bolt my fuel distributor onto ANY engine from a 380 to a 560 it will run the engine and you can throw all of the other stuff away. Of course you will have the fuel economy for 1980 but it makes swapping engines easy. Now if you want to dump a 420 or 560 in a 380 SEL just bolt on the 380's fuel distributor on and hook up all of the existing 380's sensors and go.
 
#20 ·
NordRhein said:
It's because people don't understand how these engines run. I've said this before but here it is again. My 1980 500 SEL Euro has NO computer, NO o2 sensor, NO cats, No pump NOTHING! There are NO wires attached to the fuel distributor because there is no feedback system. So if you bolt my fuel distributor onto ANY engine from a 380 to a 560 it will run the engine and you can throw all of the other stuff away. Of course you will have the fuel economy for 1980 but it makes swapping engines easy. Now if you want to dump a 420 or 560 in a 380 SEL just bolt on the 380's fuel distributor on and hook up all of the existing 380's sensors and go.
Do that if you like, but it won't work well...the 380 FD won't flow near enough fuel to feed a euro 500 or a US 560. The EZL map won't be near ideal and the warm up reg will have the car running like shit.

So yea, it will "run" but not much more.

Jonathan
 
#21 ·
jhodg5ck said:
Do that if you like, but it won't work well...the 380 FD won't flow near enough fuel to feed a euro 500 or a US 560. The EZL map won't be near ideal and the warm up reg will have the car running like shit.

So yea, it will "run" but not much more.

Jonathan
Why do you say it won't feed enough fuel because it came out of a 380? The fuel distributor cannot tell what engine is beneath it. It does not have a clue. All it can do is feed fuel to the amount of air that is pushing on the metering plate. It then supplies fuel to make the ratio of fuel to air correct for current conditions. A 560 will simply suck in more air. So instead of providing fuel for say 30MPH it will provide it for say 40MPH. SURE the 560 will run better with it's own system but as I said - and you skipped - get a 1980 Euro FD and tune it with a 3mm allen wrench for best idle and go.
 
#22 ·
Well, no..the fuel distributors are calibrated too the engine they will run on, thus the different part #'s from one engine to the next. A 380 fuel distributor is designed to provide a certain amount of fuel.

So again, doing as you say the car will run, but it will NOT run ideally. The ignition curves will be wrong, the amount of fuel the FD is capable of flowing will not match, and the warm up reg will not provide enough fuel @ cold start to have the car idle properly.

I've been down this road quite a few times in the shop, have you?


Jonathan
 
#23 · (Edited)
NordRhein:

For some reason, I believe you when you say you can run with a 380 FD. Also, the information about the radiator came from someone who has been in the business 30 years and sees every model of Mercedes engines and bodies that has been made over the past 50 years. And he sells engines and MB parts worldwide. No question.

Jonathan is speaking more about "tuned" performance, which is a probably a different subject altogether. I think what I am looking for is to get away with a simplified swap for more muscle and less headache. Perfect tuning will always require a perfect match of all the parts; however, I believe that NordRhein does have a good point and that there is a way to re-engineer the engine so that it will work and perhaps even save some fuel. Mercedes parts have always been nearly interchangeable from one model to the next. I cannot see how radically different these engines are that a 380 FD wouldn't work on a 420, 500, or 560 engine. This theme just seems be all throughout Mercedes (and, indeed, most all car manufacturers); it is one of the priniciples of engineering and manufacturing and I believe may have started with the likes of Deming (sp?) or even some people say Ford (a name I hate crediting for anything good in the automotive world).

While this does not prove anything one way or another, the question that I have is who has been successful with putting more muscle (via various different engine swaps) in the W126's. This is what I want to hear from......any and all ideas.......cuz I truly believe there is a lot of room for improvement and creativity with these engines........
 
#24 · (Edited)
I am doing a 500 euro swap in a few weeks, highly recommended. I am talking the engine and all components, the tranny And even the 2.24 limmited slip, Go for the 500 euro instead! I can't wait for mine to be dropped in.
 
#25 ·
Where did you get your engine? PM me if you have to. Killer thanks!
 
#26 ·
GotTheBenz said:
NordRhein:

For some reason, I believe you when you say you can run with a 380 FD. Also, the information about the radiator came from someone who has been in the business 30 years and sees every model of Mercedes engines and bodies that has been made over the past 50 years. And he sells engines and MB parts worldwide. No question.

Jonathan is speaking more about "tuned" performance, which is a probably a different subject altogether. I think what I am looking for is to get away with a simplified swap for more muscle and less headache. Perfect tuning will always require a perfect match of all the parts; however, I believe that NordRhein does have a good point and that there is a way to re-engineer the engine so that it will work and perhaps even save some fuel. Mercedes parts have always been nearly interchangeable from one model to the next. I cannot see how radically different these engines are that a 380 FD wouldn't work on a 420, 500, or 560 engine. This theme just seems be all throughout Mercedes (and, indeed, most all car manufacturers); it is one of the priniciples of engineering and manufacturing and I believe may have started with the likes of Deming (sp?) or even some people say Ford (a name I hate crediting for anything good in the automotive world).

While this does not prove anything one way or another, the question that I have is who has been successful with putting more muscle (via various different engine swaps) in the W126's. This is what I want to hear from......any and all ideas.......cuz I truly believe there is a lot of room for improvement and creativity with these engines........
oh dear....

I recommend you buy the book "Understanding Bosch Engine Management Systems"....it explains a lot, in detail, and was the starting point for my research. Jonathan is absolutely right, and he is not just speaking for "tuned" functionality. The FD should be designed to push maximum fuel flow, at maximum injector duty cycle, at peak torque. All of these parameters are different for a 380 (not to mention different compression ratios between euro and US motors). Not sure what your definition of Hot Rod would be :) but running hard on lean mixtures with improper ignition mapping does not sound like a simple, 1/4 mile enhancing solution. If the only reason why you want to run the 380 engine control system is to keep the factory loom in place, I think you should really re-consider the costs and wrench turning hours you may incur by going down this route.....then compare them with the process of splicing in the 560 harness. I'm not intimately familiar with the wiring on a 380, but I will tell you that in less than 3 weeks (of on and off work....probably 10 hrs total) I was able to completely splice a 560 CIS harness into my w201 OEM harness. Cost was $70-ish for a couple new connectors, pins, sockets and some loom tape. On the other hand, my rebuild (which could be the worst case long-term result of trying to use the 380 system on a 560) is in the ballpark of $6000 all said and done....and I have been told this is on the cheap end of the spectrum. I urge you to rethink this....thats my concerned .02 anyhow
 
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