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Checking out a 5.6 Swapped 300TE

4K views 50 replies 15 participants last post by  bondavi 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey all,

I was at Cars and Coffee last weekend and started talking to a guy with a 1990 300TE with a 5.6 M117 swapped in from a 560SEL. He told me he was considering selling it and it immediately peaked my interest. Color is white (believe repainted) on MB-tex blue interior.

The swap was done several years ago, at 150K miles, the car has 175K on it now, but the engine and transmission (both were swapped in at the same time) lag the body by about 25K miles, so they would have roughly 150K on them. Differential should have less than 100K and is from an '88 300D.
The owner had spend upwards of 38,000 dollars originally to have the swap done by a shop, and has the job documented with a receipt that supposedly lists all parts used, with the explanation that he needed something interesting to tow his speedboat. He did say there was some valve work done when they did the swap, which I know is a potential concern on these 560 engines - So that inspires confidence that they had likely replaced the valve guides that supposedly wear and cause oil burning. He also said they had ported the heads or something, not clear exactly what they did but I thought that's what he said. Owner is older and seems trustworthy. Reason he is selling is because he recently bought a new car that supersedes this in his application (not a Benz so not sure how it can supersede this car) and he no longer drives it.

Parts that are on it that I know are:
- M117 from 89 560SEL
-Trans from same car
-Radiator from same car
-Diff from 88 300D
-Slotted and drilled rotors
-Lorinser wheels (not sure what model, they're the 5 spokes that look like thicker AMG Monoblocks sort of)
-Euro style headlights
-Custom exhaust (That comes out the passenger side for some reason? But damn is it meaty and got a good rumble!)
-Progressive rate springs in front (kept SLS in rear)
-Tow bar/hitch
-Aftermarket head unit and updated speakers (Probably going to replace head unit with a Continental if I buy this car, so it matches the interior better)
-Speedometer was re calibrated to account for the new driveline.
-Wiring harness I believe he said was from the same S class that donated the engine, and appears to be well-done and in good shape from initial glances.

I'm going out to look closer at it today, I have a list of items to check from SLS to rust areas to (proper) operation of the original Hirschmann antenna. The interior is absolutely perfect, and the paint is not bad. He claims everything works, with the only outstanding problems being what he believes is a power steering leak near the pump, and the 134-converted A/C system needs to be recharged every year, so it's leaking off somewhere. He also claims it has never seen salt or snow and was always garaged. It was his company car and daily for several years, he is the second titled owner, the first being a Mercedes shop in Georgia I believe it was, as a service vehicle.

He wants 8K for it and is pretty firm on that, he doesn't need to sell it but I am really into this car. I know it won't be a lightning bolt compared to a 500E, and will make roughly the power of a 320E, but the sound is unbelievable. I looked up some power/weight specs and it should be just a bit slower than a C4 Corvette, whilst being able to seat 7 or haul plywood or tow a boat or camper. The application would NOT be a daily driver, it would be a fun (third) car used for taking to meets and shows, hanging with friends, weekend driver, or if I need to huff a bike or other cargo around. I'm not going to depend on it for a daily driver or really even a backup car (my other 124 300CE is my backup)

What do you guys think? I've had experience with 124 chassis but not the Benz V8s, I'm going to grab a ton of pictures so I can review them later, as you always tend to notice things looking at pictures, rather than when you're in the "heat of the moment" so to speak.

Are there any problems with the parts that would have been swapped in reliability-wise? I believe most Benzes and parts from this era are pretty damn reliable, but not sure if there's any gotchas beyond what I listed above. I looked up some vids from Kent and did some digging on the SLS system and after it's been demystified, it really isn't that intimidating.
Also, is the 300D differential gearing appropriate for this application? What is the gearing in it? Is it ASR equipped?

Thanks for the time, I'll see if I can post some pictures of interesting bits. I'm going to try and document everything I can on it. He's holding off listing it until I make a decision so I'm definitely excited. Talk me down if I need to be talked down! :D
 
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#3 ·
Swap is definitely well done.

Alright, we got some confusion on the mileage. Mileage is 275K not 175K...He says he's put 115K on it since the swap...He did have a massive booklet of repairs dating back to the previous owner and I did see his receipt for the swap when I first met with him.
So...High mileage sure...Ugh...8 seems kind of high after looking at it. How many miles do your 560s have? Remember that the engine and tranny lag the odometer by about 25K so they would have about 250K, 115K since they were put in. The trans was flushed and filter changed when it was swapped, and they did do valve work. He said he had the Euro cams in it for a while but has since put back the US cams to get low end power.

Good:
-No rust ANYWHERE I could see. I checked the jack points, and while they were sort of clogged with crud and leaves up front, I pushed it aside and found no rust that I could tell. All four doors were spotless underneath, nothing near the antenna mast or actual rockers, sunroof, windows, nothing. Everything looked great rust-wise.
-Pulls like a mother when you put it down. It does better with 3 people at 3/4 throttle than my CE does empty at WOT.
-Interior is in fact spotless. No cracked dash or anything.
-Rides straight and shifts smooth. Engine seems to run OK. Kicks back strong when it starts and revs great. Exhaust sounds beautiful.
-Very little cosmetic/road rash type damage. A little, but nothing that bothers me too much.
-All the lights, except for the glovebox light, seem to operate nominally.
-Climate control, while A/C is not so strong, seems to work as expected.
-Has 3 aux fans (two up front from original 1990 TE and then an electric one behind the rad.) Didn't seem to get too hot, but I'd like to take it out on a hotter day as it was overcast and cooler today. The needle did stay quite low, though even getting off the highway.
-Seats and all window switches work, sunroof makes no noise at all. Antenna seems to operate sufficiently, though I don't think the switch works. It raises when you turn on the radio and lowers when it's off so, whatever.
-No power steering pump noise, turns well.
-Differential was mostly dry. A bit of darkness near the bottom like you'd see on a semi truck diff. Nothing crazy.
-Claims he just replaced the SLS accumulators.
-No driveshaft vibration under 3/4 throttle (never went full WOT) so flex discs and center bearing are likely in good shape.
-Transmission fluid was clear like water. Smelled absolutely brand new...Didn't get a chance to test reverse though...Hm.
-Starter sounded very strong. Took a few cranks though when it was hot.

Not so good:
-Bit of dampness at the bottom of the driver's side SLS hydro. $$$ there since I'd be doing both if I decide to replace. Doesn't seem to ride bad because of it, though.
-SLS pump is absolutely soaked. Bit of weepage out of high pressure line, not sure if it was from the SLS or the PS pump though, couldn't get good enough look, but the SLS pump was soaked in something. Ugh...
-Bit of dampness on PS and SLS hose fittings. SLS system is going to need some work if I'm to say it's "perfect"
-Some of the switches inside for the rear wiper/washer don't seem to work (are the switches on the center console up top for the rear hatch area? does the car need to actually be running for these to work?) This might just be me.
-Bit of dampness at the back of the engine, not sure where it's coming from but I'd point to rear main seal. These cars always leak, it's a 30 year old German car...Not the end of the world. Oil looked clear and smelled as I would expect.
-No air dam underneath the engine, looks like it was removed due to the size of the engine.
-Radio is a Kenwood, and is blue backlit...Ehhhhhhhh....
-Definitely hot under that hood, that big 5.6 pushes out some rads...But the temp gauge looked OK.
-Some weirdness with the shocks. Looks like someone welded some nuts (3 on the spring) to act as a stiffener..? Not sure I like that. Those are probably going to need to come out...He's got Bilstein shocks up front though so those are nice.

So it needs a little bit of work. Mostly on the SLS it appears. It looks like they went the 560 engine route not the 124 route and kept the SLS and PS systems more or less separate, not integrated. And 275 body/250 drivetrain seems awful high but he's put a lot of miles on it, he claims, problem free. I like how much room there is up front, with the mechanical fan and shroud removed the belts are VERY easy to access. One thing I noted is that it was much more eager to downshift than my 300CE - the 300CE seems to have a death grip on what gear you're in, not sure what that's about. But the shifts are smooth when they happen. Very quick. Didn't get a chance to test it cold, though... Was behind him going to where we looked at it and he did get on it for a bit and I noticed some greyish smoke when he went WOT on it. Not too concerned but it does run slightly rich it seems.

He claims he runs regular gasoline though. >_> Not sure I like that but he claims it doesn't give him problems and the mechanic who did the swap said it was fine and wouldn't hurt anything. I'd switch to premium if I started driving. He says 10W-40 oil changes every 5000 miles...

Some pics are attached.
 

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#5 ·
M117 motors as used in the 560 W126 and R107 are practically indestructible, provided they get proper maintenance with at least oil and filter changes every 3K miles/ 5K kms.

The later M117s, as used in the 560 is iron block with aluminum head so make sure the proper coolant is used at all times. That means Zerex G5 or the current MB spec, but that engine was designed for G5.

The 560 has no real weak spots, except for the following. Change the timing chain, guides and tensioner every 100K miles /150K kms without exception. Also on rare occassions, the spark plug threads need be timeserted.
 
#11 ·
tjts1 said:
WTF is that? This looks like a bad hack job.
I've seen those spring nuts before. You can buy them at auto parts stores to correct sagging springs. People use them if they have heavy loads for example and don't want to be dragging the back of there cars.

While not the best\most permanent solution, that is the intended purpose of those parts so I wouldn't base my decision on those. Springs are east to change anyways.
 
#13 ·
Right, but what I'm saying is that those are being used for there intended purpose. All the pictures he posted looked clean, and the engine bay looked tidy. I wouldn't be so quick to condemn it just yet, especially not because of the method of spring stiffening.

My acid test would be to see how the driveline\shaft was modified, as well as the wiring harness. Those are the two spots that usually show wether a person is a hack, or has actually thought things out and taken the time to do the job correctly correctly.
 
#15 ·
With a custom job, the cost benefit analysis needs to be done at every step. What I question most was decision #1. While I love seeing something unique, when there's a straight six that does just about as well on power, the m104, what's the benefit of doing all this work? If you are going to put in an engine to increase the power, why not use an m119 which would have made this car the cats meow. Was it for reliability?

That's the answer I'd like to know.

I do respect older, simpler engines and cars. I don't know the W124 chassis well enough to know whether there are nice features in this year or problems with the 3.2 m104 cars that would make them less desirable. But if there aren't any strong arguments against a 3.2 m104, I'm confused as to why someone would put in all the effort and also want to buy this car.

As an enthusiast, the pinnacle motor of every chassis is the one everyone wants. I've thought about the idea of trying to out a m119 into my 300te wagon. I've seen another m119 wagons in person and was impressed.


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#16 ·
Here's the reason it's a 5.6 and not a 3.2 I6, I think he wanted the top of the line of what was available at the time. It was done quite a while ago and the 3.2 may not have even existed yet at that point, this swap has been together for a long time, he claims.

As for other issues:
Wiring harness: I am told he got that off of a "Big Body" S class (126 or 140 not sure, but it was off of another car, not hacked together)
Exhaust: Not sure why the exhaust was wrapped as it was. It did get pretty hot under there. Are there any components near the exhaust? Not sure why the shop decided to bring the exhaust over to the passenger's side at the back.
Driveline: This is my one concern, I couldn't get underneath enough to see it, but when I was driving, under some pretty heavy throttle I didn't hear or feel any signs of vibration from the driveline. The carrier bearing went out on my CE and it made a horrible sound under hard load. Fixed that one right quick!

So here's what I'm thinking as to the owner. I feel like 8000 is a little high. I would need to almost immediately replace the timing chain and guides, as he said he has no idea when those were last done (so I'm assuming never) and I'd have to rebuild the SLS pump, and hose, and replace both rear hydros to get the system back as it should be. I would not leave a car like this with a problem like that. Further, I'd have to search around for some heftier springs for the front (or some improved pads, not sure about that part) once I get the SLS and timing chain squared away. And I'd probably want to do front shocks while I'm in there. Not to mention there's a power steering leak as well that needs addressed. PS fluid can be corrosive so if it's getting on something it could cause rust. So that's a potential for around 2K in parts, I feel 6000 is a more fair price. Plus my CE needs some love. I shouldn't be spending so much on another 124 when my current one needs catchup as-is. And it is a lot of miles, I know, these engines run forever etc etc, but the fact is 275/250 is sort of a lot, especially when I can pick up a very nice 500SL with less than 100K miles that's about as fast as this thing, for around 8 grand.

He's not listed the car yet, I think I'm going to offer 6K, can't afford to go higher than that, tell him to list the car, if he has problems selling it and wants to lower the price he has my number, if he wants the car properly taken care of by my hands, the price simply has to come down a bit. Plus 300TE simply are not worth all that much, even clean ones. I'm taking a risk here. I don't know the car, I have liquid capital and I have to place my trust in a swap done a number of years ago continuing to hold up as it apparently has.

I think this is a fair assessment. I don't feel like that's a lowball and he even said he wants the car to go to the right owner. Well, at his current price point I'm having trouble swinging that, plus another 2K for parts to fix things I'm not a fan of on top of that.

-M5
 
#20 · (Edited)
That seems awful low. While I think 8K is too high I don't want to offend or burn bridges. Offering half of what he is asking, at a firm price point, seems like it won't go over well.

Edit: I texted the seller, I counter offered 5K, saying that immediately upon purchase I would need to attend to the SLS, timing chain unknowns, and the power steering system, and I wouldn't be able to properly fix it at the 8K asking price, and he should go ahead and list it publically.

I really want this car, but I need to stay realistic and not get in over my head.
 
#21 ·
IIRC, the stock M117 as put into the 560 W126 series cars produced 300 ponies. The US version of that engine was detuned (no fuel quality dial) and produced 272, mainly due to being strangled by the emissions equipment and the fact the US version got low compression heads to compensate for the crap gas (US gas is only 91 octane).

As for the idea of installing the M119, no way that is going to slide in without a new cross member and modifying the firewall.

The M117 is way more torquey than the old M103 that was pulled out.
 
#27 ·
Another thing worth mentioning is that with a car like this you will have to do almost ALL the work yourself as most shops won't know what the hell their working with.
 
#32 ·
Well ladies and gents, I'm sorry to say I likely won't be picking up this car. I sent the seller a text simply saying that for the work I'd need to do to properly take care of this car, I'd be looking at around 2000 in just parts, which puts it at 10,000 cost to me, which is a bit high for the mileage, so I said I would want to pay closer to 5000 (hoping he'd come to like, 6 or 65 or something) but no dice, just got a "Thanks for the interest" and I'm on my way.

Oh well. As I was saying before maybe the money is better spent on my CE. It was sort of fast but I wasn't SUPER impressed, or blown away or anything. It did ride nice but it wasn't so much better than a CE with the stock M104 that I'm going to die. Maybe I didn't push it hard enough but alas, it is not meant to be. I can get a 500SL for around the same price that does the same time on the quarter, approximately.

Next day I went online and ordered a set of new front shocks and a fan clutch for my CE.

I'll keep my eyes out. Did I mess up? Should I have gotten it?
 
#41 ·
I'll keep my eyes out. Did I mess up? Should I have gotten it?
So basically this was a poor man's AMG Hammer wagon, sans twin turbos and suspension modifications. What is the value for those? I'd say this wagon's value should be based on the value of those wagons, probably at least a 50% discount.
 
#33 ·
Nope, you did it exactly right and made a well informed, costed, and logical disunion. Although it still sucks when its something your heart wanted but your logical side said no.... I would wait. It might pop up again for sale for a lower number.
 
#34 ·
Wise move. If my eyes served me correctly it looked like that body had 279k on it. I wouldn't go near a Hammer with that kind of miles on it. I suspect the real reason for selling it was all the little problems that were popping up due to the car being half used up. And as said previously, all the fabrication work that would need to be done as things wear out is a daunting task and not such a good reward for paying so much for the car.
 
#47 ·
^ I remember that car but doubt it sold for that kind of money. IMO the car was not an AMG car and if it was it was done on a budget. The interior is stock (not even 500e front seats?), the roof runners are still in place, the engine is a single cam engine (which IIRC are iron blocks - not aluminum as the boy from "we be autos" said). No obvious hallmarks of an AMG job but the appearance is slick and it probably DID run nicely; but $30k?
 
#49 ·
M117's were all aluminum,



Whether this was/is the same car from the C&D article here is debatable.



https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w124/264152-amg-300te-6-0-a.html


Don't forget the iron 4.5 m117.

The m116 (3.5) and m117 (4.5) of the 1970's are iron. The alloy m116/117 blocks debuted in the 107.026 450slc 5.0 in 1977/78. By 1981 all the m116 (3.8 and then 4.2 in 1986) and m117 (5.0 and then 5.0 & 5.6 in 1986) were all alloy. I think that was probably the end of the iron block v8s in 1980 model year.


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