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E36 AMG project

76K views 386 replies 31 participants last post by  JC220 
#1 ·
Hi all, I have had a 1987 w124 200 (not e just the 200- carb model) off the road for many years as I was intending to put a 230 Kompressor engine in it. However a wiring harness proved very hard to obtain complete so I kept an eye out for a donor car.

Long story short the car is still sitting but I just bought a donor car. A 1995 C36 AMG saloon. I will be taking the full running gear out of it & building a close as possible e36 replica with a w124 bodykit etc.

Just a quick question does anyone know off hand what parts will be compatable? I intend to swap the rear axle subframe over to the 124 complete. Am I right in thinking the sub frame will fit?

Also I hope to re use the c36 amg alloys & big front brakes. The calipers are 4 pot with AMG cast into them. From what I have read they should fit if I use later lower arms & trim the dust shields?

The car needs a full respray so I will roll the arches etc to suit wheels if required. In a few days I will take the front brakes off the w202 & test fit them to the w124 to see if the bolt pattern even matches up then I'll figure out shimming etc. I do have a good machine shop company I can use only 1/2 mile from my house.

Big project ahead but I am looking forward to it!
 
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#3 · (Edited)
Wiring Harness woes

Well I have gave myself a good few hours of hell! The engine wiring harness on the C36 engine was toast. All the usual cracked sheathing etc that someone had taped up. I believe it to be the cause of a misfire the car had when it was idling as it seemed to me to be electrical.

It was actually a wonder it even ran at all. Every wire was perished & touching at all sensors - coil packs etc. I am currently rewiring it’s original harness with high quality cable that matches the original gauge exactly. I am good with car wiring & besides, if you only replace one wire at a time you cannot really go wrong as long as you are good with a soldering Iron & PATIENT. You cannot rush a job like that- I will have around 15 hours in soldering alone I reckon.

So it will be running again in a few days- hopefully minus the previous misfire. I want to Donor running perfect before I start the transfer. That way I am not troubleshooting old problems when I fire up the W124.
I have attached a pic of the Donor Motor! I will be taking off the wheels soon & trial fitting them to my 300E-24. (As the W124 this engine is for has no front wheel hubs fitted currently) The 300 24 was fully restored before
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w124-e-ce-d-td-class/1726418-w124-300e-24-restored-photos.html
 

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#5 ·
Ok I did see the lower starter harness as well I will remove it when I have the engine & box out of the car. Is the throttle body harness under the intake manifold or where is it located? I will go through all of the wiring I take across to the w124 & also strip out what is not required- A/C etc when Im at it.
 
#7 ·
If the upper harness was original, no doubt the ETA will be, too. Every piece of wiring in this car will be Eco-junk, and should be replaced before transferring to your other car.
 
#8 ·
I have went out to the C36 & taken a pic of a large Plug under the intake- is this the Throttle Body harness? The car has a mechanical Throttle (Cable- not drive by wire) so could this be for the Cruise Control Motor only? In which case I will not be re-using it.

I also noticed that on the main engine harness there is a double pin plug which connects under the manifold. I presume it is the throttle position sensor so what other info does the ECU require from the manifold? Ie- Mechanical Throttle.

I will most definitely be rebuilding the starter / Autobox part of the loom also along with whatever comes out of the dash – ignition wiring. The Donor is ideal as it has a regular key- not the later IR type fob. I will need to remove the dash in a few weeks time and begin carefully removing what I need. I will also need to re-locate the battery in the boot and take over the fuel pumps from the C36.

The car did actually come with a brand new unused boxed Mercedes engine harness which was very close but not 100% correct fitment (It has 1no extra plug on it). Part no A 202 540 22 33. It is worth £1158 from Mercedes so I did not want to alter it in any way. I will ebay it to help fund this project!
 

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#10 ·
Wheels!

I have checked the wheels off the C36 which I intend to reuse on the W124;

Fronts 7 1/2 Jx17 H2 ET 35
Rears 8,5J x 17 H2 ET 30

Looking through the forum I think they will fit without issues. (I will be fitting new tyres anyway so the ideal Tyre sizes can be selected) I will test fit them to the other car tomorrow to be sure. I will be lowering this car also so I will more than likely roll the arches anyway to get extra clearance.
 
#11 · (Edited)
AMG Brakes!!

So this morning I finally got the wiring loom finished up. See- Pics all new wires. Got it fitted to the car & it's running an awful lot better. Still running not 100% but I blame the ignition / fuel system. New correct spec Spark Plugs & Fuel filter ordered first.

The 4 pot C36 Brakes fit the W124 no problem::grin!!! Although they need cleaned up still. I found that 2 washers were need where the Caliper Bolts on just to centre it on the rotor. Big long heavy duty bolts fitted so no safety issue at all.

Huge upgrade from the solid single piston brakes the car had. I will also be bringing across the vented AMG rears to my W124.

On that note the 8.5 wheels are a little wide on the rear of my other W124. They stick out a little due to the offset maybe. But if I can carry across the entire rear sub frame from the w202 maybe this will cure the issue as there is about an inch of room between the rear edge of the tyre & the shock on the W124.

I will measure both hub spacing on the W202 & W124 to see if this is feasible. Does anyone have any input on the compatibility of the w202 rear sub frame?
 

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#12 ·
Throttle Body

Thanks to sbaert for mentioning the Wiring issues to the Throttle Body etc. Upon inspection the Wiring was falling apart inside. All rewired now! I will re-fit it tomorrow morning. I expect more crap wiring to show its face obviously but so far that’s the Engine Harness & Throttle Body taken care of.

One Question, on the Pic of the (Switch Over Flap?) attached here you will see a little Pipe with a Barb on it & two electrical Pins next to it. To me this looks like a Vacuum Pipe should be connected here, can anyone tell me for sure?

I have checked in around the Intake for a loose Pipe but cannot locate any.

I am trying to troubleshoot a weak throttle the car has. ie; when it is idling if I jab the Throttle it splutters a little & doesn’t really like it. It seems it has no fuel and / or weak ignition. Has anyone any suggestions as to what I should be checking?
 

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#13 ·
Ok, I actually went out just now & fitted the Throttle Body. The following was observed;

At first Cold Start, Car fires up & runs at high idle (1300rpm?) for approx one minute maybe 2. During this time the (High) idle is totally smooth and throttle response is 100% fine. Very perky and sweet running.

Then when the rpm's drop (7-800?) after initial idle the car immediately loses the Perky Throttle response and has the 'pwwaaaap sounding' weak throttle when I rev it. Once it runs for another minute or so I can detect a misfire just listening to it. Sure enough when I listen to the exhaust note there is a definite irregular 'pat' 'pat' of a misfire.

I guess I need to buy a OB2 fault code adapter for the round plug & use some software to see what the car is saying. But if anyone can provide input it would be appreciated.
 
#14 ·
Anyone?
  • W202 Subframe into w124?
  • Engine Idle Issues- what I can check whilst waiting on Plug adapter

I see there are various C36 E Gas Modules on Ebay for only £25. Should I try one on my car & see if it helps the unstable idle / weak throttle issue?

Or does anyone have experience of ECU test / repair companies within the UK I might mail my ECU's to?

Today I ran it up to temperature to check for collant leaks etc. All good but the unstable idle gets worse the hotter it gets. It also sort of hunts / lightly revs itself whilst sitting at idle! Also tries to die / cut out periodiaclly. Not good & don't know where to look off hand as my other w124 300E 24 has KE injection (Thankfully!!)

I intend to be doing the motor swap very shortly so any advice to get the Donor running sweet first would be much appreciated!
 
#17 ·
Check your fuel pressure, should be approx 60 psi (I think, double check this). The regulator mounted to the fuel rail leaks internally and the engine doesn't get enough fuel. If you can get access to a scan tool that will read actual values check the adaptation values. If it's pegged at the "+" or enrichment stop the ecu can't add enough fuel to overcome the leaking regulator. This condition will most likely also have an adaptation fault code for mixture too lean

If that isn't it, you really need to get access to a decent scan tool
 
#18 · (Edited)
More info

Hi, starguy1 good idea on the Fuel Pressure Regulator. This morning I removed the one fitted in the car & swapped it out for a spare I had (Fitted to the Kompressor engine I am no longer using) The car is still behaving the same. (For info, the Vacuum hose connected to the C36 Fuel Pressure Regulator did smell of Petrol but no raw fuel visible)

In order to give you guys more info, I have checked the part no’s for the parts fitted currently as follows

OVP Relay: 000 540 67 45
Fuel Pressure Regulator Bosch Part No: 0 280 160 512

Are there revised part no’s available for these components? Should I replace these items with new Bosch ones to be sure these are not potentially the issue? They are about 1/3 price in USA, so I might buy them there & have them shipped to me.

I have also checked through the cars history folder and photographed a couple of older invoices which were of interest. (Attached)
I have also videoed the car running this morning. One Cold(ish) and another nearly up to full temp. You can see the throttle response is ‘almost normal’ when the car is cold. Then it gets progressively worse as the car warms up. It also stalls itself periodically when warm & as luck would have it did this a couple of times in the Vid.

https://youtu.be/vKmuQhjuUvs

https://youtu.be/l4hAyqwoZH8

I bought this car & trailered it home. It has been off the road for about 3 – 4 years. In it’s current running condition I would say it is un-drivable on the road. It’s running has improved significantly since the re-wire but as you can see there is still something clearly not right. I have also tried swapping out 2 of the ignition coils but to no real improvement. I wonder is a vacuum leak (Or that ‘missing?’ pipe joint I queried) part of the issue? When the RPM’s are up it appears to run great so I think the engine is mechanically sound. Regarding the wiring the Lower harness still needs to be re-done.

I have had a check on the condition of the wiring leading up to the Throttle Body Plug. It looks ok- no sign of cracking anywhere. Disconnecting the MAF makes no difference to the running of the car.

If anyone wants the C36 vin to check diagrams / part nos PM me & I will forward it to you.

I have ordered a OB2 usb lead & round pin adapter. Unfortunately these will take until late next week to get here so any more advice in the meantime would be great!

Edit; I have just been out to the car again & noticed quite a loud hissing noise from under the intake manifold whilst the car is idling. Sounds like it might have a pretty major Vacuum Leak which I had not noticed before. Would this have the potential to cause the engine Bogging on Idle & rough idling, stalling? With the size of the manifold and the limited visability it is very hard for me to tell for sure. I will try and pull some of the larger breather hoses out and clean, inspect them later.
 

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#19 ·
Just back in from checking all of the Vacuum Lines- all appear good. I took the Throttle body off again & took a good look around for any potential leaks / loose pipes- none at all. I also cleaned & applied some clear silicone RTV sealant to all of the pipe fittings but the car runs just the same after.

I have ordered a fuel pressure test gauge. Incase it is the fuel pump & not the pressure regulator at fault. In any case monitoring the fuel pressure correctly will be important.

So until the test cables & gauge arrives by post I am still no further forward!
 
#20 ·
Fixed!

Update;
The car is now running perfect! Rock steady smooth Idle and free revving with no hesitation. Big thanks to Mike K for his assistance and his HFM Scan software. (Just google HFM Scan) It is free to download.
See the Pic for the items I found essential, Fuel Pressure test gauge, Round Pin adapter & USB lead. This whole kit only cost about £25 and all the components are readily available on Ebay. I just used an old mini notebook I had with Windows XP on it for the HFM Scan software.

You install the Software then hook the cables up to the car. Then run the engine and follow thew instructions in the software. You then email the data to Mike for analysis. You can also view & clear fault codes (Mine had about 29 old ones stored mostly due to faulty wiring loom!) and download the HFM Chart software to view the Data yourself.

It turned out the car had a Faulty MAF,Oxygen Sensor & Thermostat (I discovered all were the Original Items so no surprise really after 20 years) I fitted a new Genuine Bosch MAF and a universal Oxygen sensor as I could not find a Bosch Oxygen in stock anywhere. Even anyway the Universal sensor was easy to fit and is a fraction of the price. See the Pic, only 4 wires to connect. 2 white wires are Heater element and the Black is Earth, Grey is senor feedback to ECU. I did buy I high quality Fuel Parts Universal Oxygen sensor FuelParts no 86410. (Not Chinese cheapie) I used the original plug, just zip tie the original sheathing back, make your connections then slide it back over the whole lot. Removing the old oxygen Sensor was a complete session. I ended up removing the entire exhaust system from the car just to get at it properly. Then heated it with a MAPP torch & used a 6 foot bar to get it out. It was very, very, VERY stuck. Manifold bolts sheared in the process too which was great fun but all fixed and back on now.

You can also buy the full version of HFM Scanner from Mike which I have done which enables you to view the live data whilst the car is running. Such as the Ignition Burn time for each cylinder, MAF Voltage, Injector timing etc etc.

On every Mercedes I have bought (Without exception!!) I have replaced the Thermostat right away as they were faulty. People don’t seem to notice the long time the Engine takes to warm up and the cooler operating temp (Approx 67 degrees) I bought a new Meyle Stat for only £8 inc delivery. I would suggest to anyone who has not changed their M104 thermostat to go ahead & change it now. It only takes ten mins to do and the difference is great. My car now gets up to 87 degrees in less than 5 minutes of idling. Before it took 30mins to reach 67 degrees and never got fully up to temp.

So now I will begin prepping for the transplant into the W124. All the wiring loom needs carefully mapped out before I disconnect it all.
 

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#21 ·
Further to a recent PM regarding the HFM Software;

I bought the USB cable here;
USB Cable VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda 409.1 OBD2 OBDII KKL VAG-COM Auto Diagnostic Tool | eBay

I bought the Round Pin adapter here;
Mercedes Benz 38 Pin to 16 Pin OBD OBD2 OBDII Car Fault Diagnostic Adapter Cable | eBay

And the Fuel Pressure test kit here;
Fuel Injection Pump Pressure Injector Tester Test Pressure Gauge Set w/Case

I have also attached a photo showing how the Gauge is used. Very simple connection. My car is pegged rock steady at 45psi at Idle unless I rev it in which case it instantly increases up to approx 55 psi. (Engine under no load in garage)

Link to HFM Scan website;
Diagnostic Mercedes, HFM-SFI, read fault code, program, W124, W202

Just follow the info contained within the Website. You carry out the diagnostics first then win zip the folder and email it to Mike. He will get back to you by email.

You don't have to buy the software. The Scanner & Chart programs will give you all the info you need. I just decided to buy the Full version because I thought it would be useful for me in the future to be able to read live data from the car.

When you email Mike ( hfmscan@mail.ru ) just ask him for a price for the upgrade file based on your ECU.
 

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#24 ·
Ok so since I have fettled a little more at the C36 Engine and now I am 100% happy with it. So onwards with the removal!

I have began stripping the interior out tonight so I can begin the expose all of the wiring harness & start planning / labelling things up.

I will need to locate the Battery in the Boot of the W124 now so I will be bringing all of the long Power Cables over from the C.

Here is where I need some help- My W124 is a factory manual gearbox car. I will now be changing it to Auto.

I see the C36 Steering colum has a cable going into it- so the Key can't be removed unless the Auto trans is in Park. I can't get at the W124 interior properly yet as it's parked too close to a wall. I will move it soon but I need the donor car apart & away first!

Can anyone tell me if I will need to change the whole W124 steering colum for one from an Auto or Just the locking Barrel Mech?? (So the Park Cable will work)

I will also be bring over the whole C ABS system. I already have the ABS w124 hubs spare so all good there I will be able to fit the Speed sensors.

Also, the W124 Speedo has a Mechanical Drive. Is my Auto trans in the C36 likey to have a bung on it where I can pop it off & fit the w124 Drive cable into? It would appear the C36 speedo has no mechanical cable.

I will need to map out the wires going into the instrument cluster and take over only what will differ in the W124. For example the original W124 harness which is for the clock, Fuel Gauge & Oil pressure Gauge will not need altered. But I will have to get the engine speed tachometer working etc

Also, what about the Auto Pedals fitment & larger C36 servo?
In time I will have figured all of this out myself but if anyone can advise in the meantime it would be very helpful
 
#25 ·
Successful morning exposing the wiring loom. Great for the W124, for the C36- Not so much!!

I have a spare W124 instrument cluster. I have been thinking I might attempt to remove the guts of the C36 Cluster and have it transplanted into the W124 Cluster. I’m guessing from the responses so far this is a long shot.............................. but has anyone tried anything like that before?

It would be nice to have the AMG Clocks working in the other car. Especially as the W124 had an M102 engine so it is only clocked to 140mph (from memory)- C36 is clocked to 160mph. But I would retain the Oil Pressure etc on the Left from the W124 as I prefer that setup.

I presume the W124 engine tachometer is from the Front Crank Sensor? Maybe this will be the only way to have the M104 tachometer working correctly. Also the Speedo from the C36 must be taking readings from the ABS System. The whole ABS system looks suspiciously identical to the one fitted in my other W124. If I am taking this whole system across then I am thinking it won’t be easy....... but there is no reason why it won’t work.

I will have to send the C36 cluster off to a specialist to have the Mileage changed to suit the original W124 Clocks, that is assuming this plan will work in the first place!! Just thinking out loud for now.
 

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#26 ·
I have went out to check a few more things & try to plan ahead the order of work to do.

Now, the Rear Axle! I have the 7.5 ET35 AMG Front Wheels & 8.5 ET 30 Rear wheels which I would like to use on the W124. However, when I test fitted the rear wheels on my other W124 Sallon they stuck out a little at the arches. But they had good clearance to the shock to 'go in'

Well as i had suspected the C36 W202 rear axle has a smaller dimension between the lower arm mounting Bolt locations. approx 520mm on W124 & 470mm on the C36. This explains how those wheels fit fine on the W202 and would allow perfect fitment on the W124. Take a look at the attached pic with the rear wheels test fitted. Imagine the wheel in by 25mm with this axle, should clear the arch then.

I could change the wheels for a different offset / narrower rim but I would prefer to have the 'deep Dish' on the AMG rims. I would also like to bring over the whole rear subframe because the C36 Diff is mounted in there (With correct length halfshafts etc) and it has Vented Rear brakes. The axle otherwise looks very similar.

In order for me to bring the whole axle over I will need to narrow in the W124 Subframe mounting points slightly along with relocating the Spring Seat cups in also by approx 25mm both sides. Upon checking the w124 this shouldnt be too much grief!

Do you guys think I am just giving myself a ton of work trying this?

Or do you think I should sell on the c36 wheels and get (Wide) ones with different offset that fit the W124 along with carrying over the Diff to the W124 Subframe and figuring out the Halfshaft fitment / length?
 

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#27 ·
Strange Device

Tonight I was taking a look at the Manual Shifter in the W124 (It looks like the C36 one will bolt in btw) but I noticed a 'Crash Sensor' fitted in the car- see the Pic

I always assumed this car (The 1987 200 W124) did not have Airbags, does this mean it does? And if so where are they likey to be on a W124 of this era- just the steering wheel?

There are no markings whatsoever in the car to indicate that Airbags were fitted
 

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