300e vs 525i

[chinny4290]

Originally Posted by Hirosimez

Nice write-up. Here are just my 5 cents

I've been bringing 15 year old low mileage (30 - 80 Kkm) BMWs and Mercedes from Japan to Canada for nearly two years now and have lots of chances to run them side by side. To make an extensive story short, on a long run Benz wins hands down. Here is why:
1.
With the exception of M30 and M50 engines and bodies, BMWs are fragile and do not tolerate neglect or abuse.
2.
MB interioirs do last. the only thing that causes problems - cracked wood as cars come from tropical climate and some of them lived outside.
BMWs, on the contrary, look like shit regardless. As original poster noted - peeling fabrics and sagging headliner being most notorious.
3.
W124 is relatively simple, its main strength - overengineered mechanicals and body. On lower specced cars electronics are virtually non-present. A definite boon on a used motor.
4.
BMWs are focused 'driver's cars', twitchy, sensitive and nervous, always urging you to play. When you don't feel like it - it annoys. MB can be both a player and an effortless A-to-B express. OK, steering is not as sharp, but again, on a long run - it wins.
5.
Had a 300E-24 with 722.3 'box for a year. Was substantially more economical than 535 (a renowned guzzler). 2nd gear start can be overridden, push the accel pedal hard but be careful, as usually somewhat reluctant MB really leaps forward (faster than 535)
As for 525 - IMHO it just does not have enough torque, especialy here, at 1000 m above sea level altitude.

All above said, my last personal purchase and sort of halo car - 1992 400E with 45Kkm (28 Kmiles in American and UK money) - is a true wunderwagen. It does not give you a kick in the butt like say my SAABs 9000 did, but its strength is a sea of torque and effortless cruising power. Oh, and pretty insane speeds arrive quickly and just unnoticed. And no BMW of the same vintage (and I mean any - I drove them all from 318 to 750iL and 850 Alpina) looks as well and expensively constructed and appointed as this 400E.

I'm sorry....I find a lot of information incorrect here...

1. M30s and M50s are engines....not bodies. And BMWs are fragile and do not tolerate? I'm sorry but the E34 was one of the best cars ever to come from the Roundel. Mind you, it isn't as durable as its predecessor the E28, or other BMWs of equal and older time like the E30 3er, the E24 6er, and the E23 7er. But the difference is minimal and the E34 is a very durable car and is very reliable.

In 1991 the 535i was rated the most reliable car in its class and the most reliable used car several years later.

And the M30 is a wonderfully reliable engine...it's literally bulletproof. the timing chain was designed to last the life of the engine...

2. BMWs interiors look like shit? Well I'm sorry that their focus was to not distract the driver from anything too extravagant in the interior. Their focus was to make a driver's car, hence the "ultimate driving machines..." even though that's a marketing slogan...it's true. MB's interiors can look just as bad as any other interior after a long period of time....just look at any MB that's been used and has leather, and not MBTex. and MB's aren't notorious for sagging headliners? Yea right...

3. I'll slightly agree with you that the W124 is simpler...but not by much at all...and the E34 wasn't overengineered? Compared to what the Roundel is punching out nowadays....yes it was.

4. BMWs are "twitchy, sensitive, and nervous?" Well excuse me that they are actually involving...hence again, the "ultimate driving machine..." it wouldn't be if it wasn't involving....and the E34 is far from twitchy, sensitive, and nervous...we're not talking the E30 here...and even the E30 isn't "twitchy, sensitive, and nervous." High-Speed stability is as much of a trademark to BMWs, especially the 5er as much as it is a trademark of MB. And look at BMWs Motorsport history and heritage....none of their cars are "twitchy, sensitive, and nervous" and BMW Motorsport has made some of the greatest driving machines ever to plague the history of the automobile.

5. You have to also consider that the M30B35 aka "Big Six" was not as technologically advanced as the later M103s and the displacement on the 535i, which is 3.5 vs. MB's M103 3.0 liter...it's obviously going to be less economical-for-a-six-cylinder.

And the 525i is just slow...that engine doesn't do the car proper justice...much like the 4-banger in the 318.

Above all, I think you're just biased too much towards MBs...."No BMW of the same vintage is as expensively appointed blah blah blah?" GIve me an F'ing break.

I want you to go out there and drive an E32 750il or an E34 M5, M540i or 540i 6-spd...or an E30...for more than a day....And the E31 is under that short classification? You must be crazy....the E31 8er was one of the greatest cars made by the Roundel....I want you to drive an 850CSi....my dream car that I just had the chance to test drive this summer...if you don't think the E31 8er looks good...there must be something wrong with you....same with the E34...the E32....and all the other you mentioned. You are extraordinarily misinformed here.

[Hirosimez]

With all due respect to your point of view...

1. M30s and M50s are engines....not bodies.
Yep, my mishap, "bodies" were from the first revision of the text and I forgot to delete it.

the E34 was one of the best cars ever to come from the Roundel.
I wholeheartedly agree. With the possible exception of later E46s, all other XXXs were way too prone to glitches and breakdowns.

In 1991 the 535i was rated the most reliable car in its class and the most reliable used car several years later.
Sorry, I do not trust surveys too much. What I have is dosens and dosens of auctioned cars and all of them being of similar year (1990 - 1992), similar mileage (up to 60 Kmiles) and spec (not nearly as lavish as US, in most cases without leather or even sunroof, but this is what we have) - I really struggle to find a decent beemer, while mercs are in abundance. And the higher the spec of BMW, the poorer condition it has. Which is a problem, as it is E34s and 31s that sell easiest here, not W124s or W129s.

And the M30 is a wonderfully reliable engine...it's literally bulletproof. the timing chain was designed to last the life of the engine...
Precisely, as long as you lash the valves every 10-15 K.

2. BMWs interiors look like shit? Well I'm sorry that their focus was to not distract the driver from anything too extravagant in the interior.
I was not referring to design, but rather to condition, BMW's interiors going south much faster than those of MB.

MB's interiors can look just as bad as any other interior after a long period of time....
Remember, we are talking not so much mileage as just age.

3. I'll slightly agree with you that the W124 is simpler...but not by much at all...
Again, we are talking about cars of non-US spec. The bulk of cars would have powered seats and windows (them being standard for Japan anyway) , alloy wheels and dual zone A/C and that's about it. Otherwise not much different from your Greek taxi really. Ditto for BMWs. Bog standard. But way much more in electronics and complexity. Just look at the instrument cluster.

4. BMWs are "twitchy, sensitive, and nervous?" Well excuse me that they are actually involving...
Yes, they are involving as long as you do not have to negotiate a mountain pass in heavy rain with road so horribly grooved that it resembles rails. Or when you just feel like making it home after a long day in the office with a splitting headache. There are lots of occasions when this playfulness is sort of annoying.

look at BMWs Motorsport history and heritage....
Words 'history' and 'heritage' mean nothing to me sorry. Say, Jaguar has lots of heritage that does not make them any better from the seller's or buyer-user's point of view. The main difference in our points of view is that you are talking for an enthusiast, and I see it from strictly chooser-user and wheeler-dealer point of view.

BMW Motorsport has made some of the greatest driving machines ever
Well.. For ages people believed that Earth was flat. Or that Ferrari and Lamborgini are a pinnacle of automotive engineering and art It all is more the matter of promotion.

Above all, I think you're just biased too much towards MBs....
Frankly, more than anything I am biased towards SAAB while knowing pretty well all their shortcomings . But Mercs are close second to those.


I want you to go out there and drive an E32 750il
This is what I did errr... 12 hours ago. One with 29 000 km on the odo.

an E34 M5
Will Alpina B10 do?..

the E31 8er was one of the greatest cars made by the Roundel....
Your statement is particularly interesting when even BMW admits it was a huge mistake: It is horribly impractical - rear seat for people with detachable legs, tiny trunk, obese and that Z1 on steroids, so-80s-styling. And it never sold well. Interior is not that special either.

I want you to drive an 850CSi....
Did that last weekend, in Alpina tune, actually. Yes, it is loud, fast and attracts attention and is fun for about 30 min. But as a long-term prospect - no, thank you.

if you don't think the E31 8er looks good...there must be something wrong with you....
Yep, beauty is in the eye of beholder...

You are extraordinarily misinformed here.
I am neither informed or misinformed, I base My extremly Humble Opinion on what I have to deal with daily.
And I stopped reading auto magazines when I turned 30.

Oh, and above all - don't take it too seriously

[bigwiki]

Hirosimez mentioned 400e is faster than most bimmers. Is 400e really that fast? I will definitely like to check it out because my 300e 2.8 is not very exciting.

How reliable is the 400e V8 engine compare to 300e 2.8 engine?

[Hirosimez]

Hirosimez mentioned 400e is faster than most bimmers.
I do not recall saying that The only car referenced in respect of speed was E34 535.
Also, it depends on what you mean as "fast". If it is a 0-60 or in-gear 50-80 time -then sorry, 400E does not feel that fast, as you reach and exceed that speed in no time but also without any drama. If you want lots of action and feeleing - try SAAB 9000 2.3Turbo or 9-3 Viggen - you will be sweating with both fear and sheer excitement every time the tach needle is past 2200 rpm.
If it is max speed - 150 mph is certainly fast but one should be insane to drive like that on our roads. Note: Germany and its autobahns (where 400E & 500E are most at home) is totally different.

What amazes with 400E most - is how effortlessly, smoothly and quietly it picks up speed, any speed. To me it is a 500E Lite of a sort, more biased towards comfort and hi-speed long range cruising, rather than sheer thrills. And it fits me nicely here in Canada.

How reliable is the 400e V8 engine compare to 300e 2.8 engine?
One of the best MB efforts certainly. I do not have long term statistics for engines mechanical reliability and should rely on what service techs and forums say though, it appears the later M104s (2.8 & 3.2) are more troublesome than either earlier 3.0 M104s or M119s.

More experienced folks - please correct me if I am wrong.

[bigwiki]

Originally Posted by Hirosimez

Hirosimez mentioned 400e is faster than most bimmers.
I do not recall saying that The only car referenced in respect of speed was E34 535.

Oh, i mis-read your earlier post. Sorry. Thanks for the info on 400E. Will be great if someone has experience write a "w124 400e vs e34 540i" comparison.

[Eliot]

The M119s have timing chain issues where the plastic guides break off but that is after 150,000 miles plus. Otherwise they are without issue (although external components like the wiring harness can go bad).