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post #111 of 137 (permalink) Old 06-23-2015, 10:44 PM Thread Starter
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Sight unseen w108 purchase-imageuploadedbyautoguide1435121032.861760.jpg
That's what the oil looks like, and has probably been in there over 5 years.

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post #112 of 137 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 08:43 AM
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I'm gonna snap diagnose any problems sight unseen, so take them with a grain of salt.
Smoke: black smoke on acceleration is normal. At least it's normal for every car of the era, and definitely big fuel injected Benzes. I have a 80s M117 that dumps black soot until it warms up. It's just partially burned fuel. It also shoots a puff of black smoke on hard acceleration.

Trans: If you're not dumping white smoke out of the exhaust, the vacuum modulator probably isn't sucking trans fluid into the intake. Most likely the rear shaft seal on the transmission is leaking. If you park it on an incline, park it nose down. It may help, and that rear seal is not difficult to replace. Make sure you use the recommended ATF!

Sparks coming out of the muffler: There's probably a lot of carbon built up in the exhaust. This stuff flakes off and causes sparks. Either that or some mice moved in there and made a nest.

This was a great find! Super clean.
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post #113 of 137 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 09:42 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxonix View Post
I'm gonna snap diagnose any problems sight unseen, so take them with a grain of salt.

Smoke: black smoke on acceleration is normal. At least it's normal for every car of the era, and definitely big fuel injected Benzes. I have a 80s M117 that dumps black soot until it warms up. It's just partially burned fuel. It also shoots a puff of black smoke on hard acceleration.



Trans: If you're not dumping white smoke out of the exhaust, the vacuum modulator probably isn't sucking trans fluid into the intake. Most likely the rear shaft seal on the transmission is leaking. If you park it on an incline, park it nose down. It may help, and that rear seal is not difficult to replace. Make sure you use the recommended ATF!



Sparks coming out of the muffler: There's probably a lot of carbon built up in the exhaust. This stuff flakes off and causes sparks. Either that or some mice moved in there and made a nest.



This was a great find! Super clean.

Thank you. I dropped by the mechanic yesterday, and there's no doubt, it's oil burning out the exhaust. Valve seals or piston rings are the apparent culprits. An oil change with some heavy weight will hopefully help too.

The ATF level seems to have balanced out and is holding.

I have to comment on one thing. "clean"? No way. This car is filthy! I have been slowly wiping down the interior, getting smoke film off the glass, wiping filth off the engine etc. The exterior has been washed in the last 5 years, but that's about it. Rear Ashtrays full of cigarette butts, dirt on all the seats, including even dried mud.

It also looks like the front driver/left fender had been replaced prior to the paint job. I can see creme colored bolt heads and a silver fender under the hood. The passenger side has a few small rust bubbles, and looks probably original.

I will get it there. New seats and front door panel caps would bring the interior a long way from where it is now. The engine bay could use some help with the d-jet wiring harness, but at least it seems to work.

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post #114 of 137 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 01:53 PM Thread Starter
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Sight unseen w108 purchase

The 280se 4.5 is somewhat of a distraction from many other things I should be working on, both 107s and non-car stuff. So I decided it was time to take the car in for an inspection and just see what happens. I had to get the car to DMV one way or another for the VIN verification before they could give me a title, even a U-title that can be used to transfer / sell the car. (Pennsylvania titles can't be left open and must be notarized when selling the car. So I would have to get a title, even if I never register the car.).

In the inspection lane, they didn't even check the emissions due to the oil smoke, definitely oil. Here are all the failures:
- emissions due to smoke
- horn, which I guess I never even checked.
- front right blinker, maybe parking light too.
- one brake light is out

All four brakes were good, wipers, headlights, highbeams, etc.

So now I know what I need to do to put the car on the road. I think I'm going to park it and try to forget about it until I get more time to dig into the engine smoking issues and fix the horn and lights.

I am browsing parts cars and may pick up one for seats and some chrome bits.

The suspension really needs some work. I am guessing that all the rubber bits are shot because it feels like the car is going to shake apart with many bumps I hit. It feels good on smooth and fast highways, but bumpy city streets are treacherous.

I considered making an attempt to sell it as is, but I guess I'm just not ready to give up on this one yet. I ordered some valve stem seals. I get the feeling that when I dig into this one, I will be going deep:
- pull spark plugs and do compression test.
- pull valve covers and check timing chain.
- adjust valves and replace valve seals
- drain and replace the coolant, oil, and oil filter.
- probably pull the intake manifold for some cleaning and inspection.
- probably welding in a bit of metal on the rear lower side trunk pans,
- putting a hardwood floor in the trunk (wood already sitting in there),
- grinding out the surface rust and finding at least a decent match in a rattle can color until I bite the bottle and get the car repainted.
- install an antenna and make radio work.
- fix the horn and replace bulbs where needed.
- find and install the drivers side fender liners. There is a rear one on passenger, but not driver side.
- finding a solution for the front interior door panel caps
- finding a solution for the cracked dash
- and maybe installing some temporary seats until I can get the correct MBTex color in good condition. (BTW: it seems that 107 MBTex is much thicker and tougher than this thin w108 stuff. I wonder if w115 cars got the same thin stuff. Strange?)

Since the odometer reads 12,600 miles, I think this car must have maybe 212,000 on it gases on the interior wear and condition of the engine. It it felt nearly as peppy as my 4.5 107s, I might think it could be 112,000 miles. I guess I can just hope it's been neglected like the interior was.

Entering research and shopping phase now that diagnosis on the smoke is done, and car is definitely mobile and roadworthy despite the smoke.

.

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Last edited by Fonzi; 06-25-2015 at 02:22 PM.
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post #115 of 137 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 03:24 PM
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My 72 W108 has in the neighborhood of 400,000 on it based on receipts and what not I found when cleaning her out. The original engine ran great....until she overheated and warped a head. Overheating was due to a chunk of solder from my re-cored radiator lodging itself in the thermostat. Now she is happy again with a euro M117 from a 74 450SL. Just easier than fixing the original.

My horn didn't work...ended up replacing the actual horns as they were frozen.

I replaced all my MB-TEX with a full set from World Upholstery....Not thin stuff and neither was the old original.

I actually covered my door panel caps in some MB-TEX material I purchased to match my seats. They sell it by the yard.

You are experienced int he M117 world, so no pearls of wisdom for you there other than these cars have the solid lifters. Also, spraying carb cleaner on all the vacuum lines and intake manifold rubber connections while the engine is running will give you a good indication of leaks or no leaks.

Well to that wonderful, rewarding, frustrating world that is the W108.
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post #116 of 137 (permalink) Old 06-25-2015, 06:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TZ_280SEL View Post
My 72 W108 has in the neighborhood of 400,000 on it based on receipts and what not I found when cleaning her out. The original engine ran great....until she overheated and warped a head. Overheating was due to a chunk of solder from my re-cored radiator lodging itself in the thermostat. Now she is happy again with a euro M117 from a 74 450SL. Just easier than fixing the original.



My horn didn't work...ended up replacing the actual horns as they were frozen.



I replaced all my MB-TEX with a full set from World Upholstery....Not thin stuff and neither was the old original.



I actually covered my door panel caps in some MB-TEX material I purchased to match my seats. They sell it by the yard.



You are experienced int he M117 world, so no pearls of wisdom for you there other than these cars have the solid lifters. Also, spraying carb cleaner on all the vacuum lines and intake manifold rubber connections while the engine is running will give you a good indication of leaks or no leaks.



Wel(come?) to that wonderful, rewarding, frustrating world that is the W108.

Thank you! Coming from playing with carbeurated w114 cars in the vintage world, all of which were rustier than this one, and were all much harder to get running, the d-jet 4.5 is a breath of fresh air. To bad I totally disassembled the 4.5 block and sold the trans from my parts car. It might have been a "drop-in" solution for this one. Easy come, easy go.

Yes, I think world upholstery will be a good solution, but when my total investment is currently less than $1000 (purchase, trailer, fuel, title, tax), it's hard to justify plunking down the cash for new seat covers. Additionally, the seat cushions are shot on these too.

Thanks for the idea on the horn. I know I have at least one from the parts 450sl and the whole car wiring harness (less the d-jet harness). I know at least one horn is in that box with the chassis wiring harness. I have been through the bad horn issue on my first MB, my black 1973 450sl.

I am a believer in the 4.5 d-jet system being quite "robust" in that it is not a very delicate system prone to clogging due to sitting like a k-jet system can be. D-jets seem to come back to life easily (if no single component is totally busted). So I am a fan of the d-jet despite the rarity of the parts. It's great to hear you got nearly 400k miles from yours. I hope mine will be worthy of bringing it back to life.

The engine has developed an intermittent miss at low rpm, which I assume will be at least one fouled plug. That may help me determine where I need to go to solve the smoking problem if it's not apparent from a compression test and replacing the valve seals.

.

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post #117 of 137 (permalink) Old 07-02-2015, 10:14 AM Thread Starter
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Since the 107 forum is where I started in this obsession, and I've learned and documented a lot more work on d-jet m117 4.5 motors over there, I continued to troubleshoot the smoking over there:
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/show....php?t=2391825

The difference between worst and best readings is ~140 and ~160 PSI with few anomalies.


4
143 - 10-12 puffs with fuel pump on
150 - 10-12 puffs with fuel pump on
168 - 10-12 puffs with fuel pump off and throttle open (first time for this).
167 - 6 puffs with fuel pump off and throttle open

3
143 - 6 puffs throttle open
150 - 10-12 puffs throttle open

2
142 - 6 puffs throttle open
150 - 10-12 puffs throttle open

1
153 - 10-12 puffs throttle open

5
148 - 6 puffs throttle open
150 - 10-12 puffs throttle open

6
154 - 6 puffs throttle open
160 - 10-12 puffs throttle open

7
154 - 6 puffs throttle open
158 - 10-12 puffs throttle open

8
135 - 6 puffs throttle open
137 - 10-12 puffs throttle open
137 - 10-12 puffs throttle open
149 - added a few drops of oil to the spark plug hole and got this reading with 10-12 puffs.

I don't know if my mechanic knows the low compression (8:1 I believe) m117 v8, but his initial response was that the rings are probably worn on that 8 cylinder.

Right now I am trying to figure out whether it is worth my time to replace the valve stem seals. They are very cheap, but I understand the process is a little involved.

I need to figure out how to connect my compressor to the compression tester connection, and it doesn't make a whole lot more than 100psi.

A friend told me it might just be easier to remove the heads for this job. An added benefit of this would be getting to look at the lower end. I was considering pulling the intake manifold just to clean everything and get a better look. I also have spare heads, manifold, pistons, etc.



On a separate note, last night I picked up the black MB tex seats from a 1969 280s. They look much more hearty than mine, but they need a very serious cleaning. When I got home and was cleaning out my truck, I found a mouse. Eek!!

.

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post #118 of 137 (permalink) Old 07-02-2015, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by toxonix View Post
Smoke: black smoke on acceleration is normal. At least it's normal for every car of the era, and definitely big fuel injected Benzes. I have a 80s M117 that dumps black soot until it warms up. It's just partially burned fuel. It also shoots a puff of black smoke on hard acceleration.
I disagree, that's not normal. It may be common (although none of my M117-powered cars exhibited the problem), but it's not normal. "Partially burned" fuel in the exhaust is a problem by definition.

Felicita e un bicchiere di vino con un panino.
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post #119 of 137 (permalink) Old 07-02-2015, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Fonzi View Post

Right now I am trying to figure out whether it is worth my time to replace the valve stem seals. They are very cheap, but I understand the process is a little involved.

I need to figure out how to connect my compressor to the compression tester connection, and it doesn't make a whole lot more than 100psi.

A friend told me it might just be easier to remove the heads for this job. An added benefit of this would be getting to look at the lower end. I was considering pulling the intake manifold just to clean everything and get a better look. I also have spare heads, manifold, pistons, etc.
I agree with you friend, if you're going to mess with the valves at all, just get both heads rebuilt. Replacing only the stem seals is a bit of a bandaid fix, except that bandaids are usually a lot less work.

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post #120 of 137 (permalink) Old 07-03-2015, 09:14 AM Thread Starter
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I agree with you friend, if you're going to mess with the valves at all, just get both heads rebuilt. Replacing only the stem seals is a bit of a bandaid fix, except that bandaids are usually a lot less work.

If that's the planned route, perhaps I should just take the extra heads I have now and drop them off for at least a price for a rebuild on them, or maybe attempt a rebuild on them myself. Being off the car though, I'm not quite sure that I have the tools and ability to get the torque on them required.

The benefit of rebuilding heads now is to minimize the down time on the car. However, if I was to pull the existing heads now, I would get a chance to inspect the lower end before dumping money into the heads and also have two sets of heads to work with on the rebuild.

I know that rebuilding the heads is not a full rebuild, but when I remember doing this type of work on my 1964 Lincoln continental costing over $2000 to have it all done for me including removal and installation. So the idea of rebuilding heads sounds expensive for a $750 car. Perhaps if I sell the car to someone else for $2000 it won't sound so expensive to them. LOL

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