Weird Noise in rear suspension - Page 5 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #41 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Benzzoh View Post
Thats why i figured i can as people on this forum as opposed to stanceworks, because people arent familiar with this setup.
Not to speak for everyone here, but I'd say most folks are unwilling to help or offer constructive advice because of the way it looks, not because of unfamiliarity. Hense, the blunt negative responses you've been receiving in the near past.

I'm the first one to tell a purist where to go, the first to say "wow" to an awesome paint job and the first to say "cool" when someone uses a $75 fuel pump to replace the $700 broken one ... but I'm with the pack in gagging when people talk about lowering their car.
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post #42 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 07:11 AM
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can anyone tell me if these will be the oe size springs for a 67 250s , Thanks

Mercedes Benz Rear Spring Set 190C DC 200D 220B 230 250 280 s SE Sel 3 5 4 5 | eBay
Yes. The part number that the seller is quoting is the correct spring for a 67 250S. On a side-note, this seller says "remanufactured" and "reconditioned" when I'm pretty sure he really means "painted", which in this case is probably just fine and the price is good.

Currently: 1967 250 SL, 1963 220Sb, 1965 300SE Lang, 1971 280SE parts car, 1972 Alfa GTV, 1965 Alfa Duetto, 1993 BMW R100R
Past: 1971 250 C, 1985 300 TD, 1967 250 S, 1968 280 S,1981 300 D, 1982 280CE, 3 Facel Vegas, Borgward Isabella Coupe, Alfa 2600 Sprint, Volvo P1900 (yes), numerous less interesting Volvos, ...
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post #43 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Grubeguy View Post
Not to speak for everyone here, but I'd say most folks are unwilling to help or offer constructive advice because of the way it looks, not because of unfamiliarity. Hense, the blunt negative responses you've been receiving in the near past.

I'm the first one to tell a purist where to go, the first to say "wow" to an awesome paint job and the first to say "cool" when someone uses a $75 fuel pump to replace the $700 broken one ... but I'm with the pack in gagging when people talk about lowering their car.
I think most of the people responding are very familiar with swing axle cars and I agree that the blunt responses are related to the "I'm not listening blah blah blah fingers in ears" approach that the OP is taking with the statement of facts.

I don't have to pack in gagging on the lowering of a car. I don't like it, but it's OK. On the other hand, I do have to gag with the negative camber, or tiny tires on a low-rider, anything else that just looks preposterous. The negative camber doesn't look like a lowered car. It looks like a broken car. It does not look cool and lowered. It looks broken. It says "hey man, what's wrong with the ass end of your car????"

Doesn't a 114/115 have independent rear suspension? (or do you have go to for a 123 /116 era...) You might be able to retrofit that in its entirety and have a lowered car without the camber...

Currently: 1967 250 SL, 1963 220Sb, 1965 300SE Lang, 1971 280SE parts car, 1972 Alfa GTV, 1965 Alfa Duetto, 1993 BMW R100R
Past: 1971 250 C, 1985 300 TD, 1967 250 S, 1968 280 S,1981 300 D, 1982 280CE, 3 Facel Vegas, Borgward Isabella Coupe, Alfa 2600 Sprint, Volvo P1900 (yes), numerous less interesting Volvos, ...
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post #44 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 09:11 AM
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Weird Noise in rear suspension

I don't know about my 114/115, but lowering a 107 definitely results in negative camber. I think the rear suspension is similar. The front subframe is the same on a 114/115 as the 107.

AMG would lower 107's, and negative camber does not appear to be a major problem. They sold white lowering springs.


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post #45 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 09:44 AM
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I don't know about my 114/115, but lowering a 107 definitely results in negative camber. I think the rear suspension is similar. The front subframe is the same on a 114/115 as the 107.
W110, W111, W113, W108 etc all have swing axles. At some point MB switched to independent rear suspension and I think it is with W114, W115, W116, R107... They may have negative camber still but there is probably something that can be done about it, where as with a swing axle there isn't. Or so I think...

Currently: 1967 250 SL, 1963 220Sb, 1965 300SE Lang, 1971 280SE parts car, 1972 Alfa GTV, 1965 Alfa Duetto, 1993 BMW R100R
Past: 1971 250 C, 1985 300 TD, 1967 250 S, 1968 280 S,1981 300 D, 1982 280CE, 3 Facel Vegas, Borgward Isabella Coupe, Alfa 2600 Sprint, Volvo P1900 (yes), numerous less interesting Volvos, ...
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post #46 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 12:25 PM Thread Starter
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You must gagg alot then because there is a bunch of people that lower their cars.

Im trying to lower the car an avoid camber , i would assume that trimmimg the compensatin coil to make up for trimming the rear springs would help with the camber it would just be a matter of cutting the right amount.

I know its not ideal or recommended but there isnt any other way of giving the car a nicer stance besides air ride. I dont have small tires and nor do i like lowriders , i just have different tast which may not be your cup of tea , but theres alot of weird people in the world i guess haha.

Any postive help is welcom keep negativity to yourself or amongs your other hating friends.

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Originally Posted by Grubeguy View Post
Not to speak for everyone here, but I'd say most folks are unwilling to help or offer constructive advice because of the way it looks, not because of unfamiliarity. Hense, the blunt negative responses you've been receiving in the near past.

I'm the first one to tell a purist where to go, the first to say "wow" to an awesome paint job and the first to say "cool" when someone uses a $75 fuel pump to replace the $700 broken one ... but I'm with the pack in gagging when people talk about lowering their car.
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post #47 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 12:37 PM Thread Starter
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Im assuming that cutting the compensator spring a certain ammount would make up and fix camber as i read in this post. I followed this post but i think that his 280se has a different setup, or his springs werent as sagged as mine.

http://www.stanceworks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42337

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Originally Posted by Fonzi View Post
I don't know about my 114/115, but lowering a 107 definitely results in negative camber. I think the rear suspension is similar. The front subframe is the same on a 114/115 as the 107.

AMG would lower 107's, and negative camber does not appear to be a major problem. They sold white lowering springs.


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post #48 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 01:21 PM
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I don't have access to the EPC where I am, but you can take a look at how the suspension system works in the diagrams available on the EPC. I assume that you would need both upper and lower control arms in order to avoid negative camber.

But... Camber isn't what this thread is all about, rather just trying to figure out what caused the noise. I find it very interesting that the noise sounded like the repeated beating against the floor, and the frequency sounded like it was related to the speed. It is certainly interesting to realize that the spring would beat the floor under those circumstance. It sure would be interesting to see a video of what happens to that spring. We will just need you to reinstall the spring and mount a go pro cam under there for us. That's all.



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post #49 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 01:50 PM Thread Starter
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That was the first thing i thought of when i heard the noise lol. After removing that spring the noise is gone. Im sure that the cutting of the springs and the compensating spring having more tention than needed was causing the dif to be a tad bit higher and making that noise. Maybe i will buy one and Return it after i record the noise haha

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fonzi View Post
I don't have access to the EPC where I am, but you can take a look at how the suspension system works in the diagrams available on the EPC. I assume that you would need both upper and lower control arms in order to avoid negative camber.

But... Camber isn't what this thread is all about, rather just trying to figure out what caused the noise. I find it very interesting that the noise sounded like the repeated beating against the floor, and the frequency sounded like it was related to the speed. It is certainly interesting to realize that the spring would beat the floor under those circumstance. It sure would be interesting to see a video of what happens to that spring. We will just need you to reinstall the spring and mount a go pro cam under there for us. That's all.



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post #50 of 56 (permalink) Old 04-23-2014, 02:54 PM
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hang on hang on hang on.
Lots is being said here but I don't think people are really understanding how the swing arm suspension works.
Take a look at the picture below - this is the diff out of my coupe. See the 'rhino horn' pointing upward? Well that is what fixes the rear end in position in the car in a vertical sense - there is a rubber and steel mount in the trunk that the rhino horn bolts into. This does not move - so the main centre part of the rear end has a fixed position in space relative to the rest of the car - including the floor of the trunk. So, for your compensating spring to be hitting the floor, it means that the mounting through the trunk floor is incorrect. Either the mount has broken, the bolt has not been done up tightly, or it has been raised by using a spacer between the mount and the mounting position in the trunk.
Weird Noise in rear suspension-swing-arm-1.jpg

Now here is a picture below of the rear end mounted in the car. See the low centre pivot point - well, its position does not move up or down once the rear end is mounted in the car (unless the mount is broken). The only thing that moves are the swing arms, in a radius as indicated by the red arrows.
Weird Noise in rear suspension-swing-axle-2.jpg

So, the geometry of raising and lowering suspension is simple.
1) If the rear end is mounted as per factory, as soon as the coil springs between the car and the trailing arms are altered or the compensating spring is removed, you will get a change in camber. No question about it.
2) Changing the length of the main coil springs or compensator spring will not change the position of the rear end relative to the trunk floor. So if there is contact, it has nothing to do with springs.
3) The only way to maintain neutral camber and lower the car is to raise the position of the entire rear end relative to the car. You can do this by fitting a spacer between the rhino horn mount in the trunk and the car. However, this will reduce the clearance between the entire rear end and the car. So you could end up the compensator spring hitting the trunk floor, or the prop shaft hitting the tunnel.

Now, onto the personal attacks on wanting to lower the car. Scoot, you normally are very rational, but for some reason you are choosing to impose rather strongly your personal opinion on lowering the car on someone else. Are you going to try to convert his religion next as well? What should his favourite colour be?

The facts are that some lowering is not all bad - look at the camber used on race cars - they deliberately dial in negative camber to improve handling. However, it will impact on tyre life. If you go extreme like the airbag guys do, you run the real risk of breaking the sliding joint and then the entire rear is a throw away job. MB tell you when the diff is out of the car to basically brace it so it cannot articulate to the full extremes otherwise damage could result. Now in getting them in and out I have found this impossible to do, so I just do it gently and have had no problems in the 10 or so rear ends I have changed.

MB have many ways of subtly changing the height and camber of the rear end. There are different thickness rubber pads at the top of the main springs, and for the compensator spring, that you can buy. There are also different springs themselves, which have different coloured stripes painted on them. In the factory manual, they have what combination of rubbers and striped springs you should use for different models. I found I put a W108 rear end in my finnie, and it was way too high, even after removing the compensator spring. So I got the springs and pads out of a W110 190D and put them in - and voila, it is now level.

The only thing I will tell you to do rather than air my opinion is check the mount in the trunk. Check it is tight, check it is not misaligned. If they are ok, then pull the mount out and check if the rubber has torn or compressed heaps. New mounts should be readily available from most parts suppliers as they are a wearing item. Much cheaper than buying new springs and pads.

Good luck,
Drew
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