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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-08-2013, 11:57 AM
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LWB250,

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I totally believe you and others who have experienced it. What I am saying is that I'm told that it is not inevitable. It seems intuitively obvious to me that a part intended it conduct brake fluid should not be adversely affected by the very substance it is supposed to handle.

American car shop manuals (actual factory manuals, not Haynes of Chilton) that I have seen recommend visual examination of brake hoses for any signs of abrasion, cutting, kinking or bulging. There is no mention of the ID of the hoses becoming constricted.

Being a curious person and a non-purist when it comes to cars, my tendency is to find out why this would be happening and take steps to stop it from happening again. If you saw the gyrations required to access brake hoses on a 190SL you would understand my motivation to accomplish that. My son just replaced the engine in his 2006 Chevy pickup in less time than it took to replace the brake hoses on the 190SL. Would you agree that there is something wrong with that picture?

Ray W
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-08-2013, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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Any who
It rained again today and these bitches lock like there is no tomorrow
It feels almost like they brake too much


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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-09-2013, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Waldbaum View Post
LWB250,

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I totally believe you and others who have experienced it. What I am saying is that I'm told that it is not inevitable. It seems intuitively obvious to me that a part intended it conduct brake fluid should not be adversely affected by the very substance it is supposed to handle.

American car shop manuals (actual factory manuals, not Haynes of Chilton) that I have seen recommend visual examination of brake hoses for any signs of abrasion, cutting, kinking or bulging. There is no mention of the ID of the hoses becoming constricted.

Being a curious person and a non-purist when it comes to cars, my tendency is to find out why this would be happening and take steps to stop it from happening again. If you saw the gyrations required to access brake hoses on a 190SL you would understand my motivation to accomplish that. My son just replaced the engine in his 2006 Chevy pickup in less time than it took to replace the brake hoses on the 190SL. Would you agree that there is something wrong with that picture?

Ray W
And will his Chevy truck still be running in 50 years like your 190SL is? You can't expect any rubber part anywhere on the car to last indefinitely.

Len
'59 220S Cabriolet - for sale - http://www.mbzponton.org/mbz220s/sellswap/car4sale.htm
'83 240D original owner 351,500 miles - for sale - http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w123...g-my-240d.html
'88 560SL 41,000 miles being parted out - https://sites.google.com/site/mercedesstuff/home
'99 E300 turbo 196,000 miles
'03 SLK320 34,500 miles
'14 Smart electric
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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-09-2013, 11:39 AM
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"And will his Chevy truck still be running in 50 years like your 190SL is? You can't expect any rubber part anywhere on the car to last indefinitely."


Len,

The 2006 truck that my son just bought came from a utility company where it was driven hundreds of miles every day. The odometer shows about 400,000 miles and it is still running but is very low on power. My son has another engine on the stand for rebuiilding.

My wife's 1961 190SL has 78,000 miles and has always been garaged. The underside of the 190SL is absoultely filthy, oozing grease and oil from every orifice. When I was under it to replace the brake hoses my skin and clothes were absolutely blackened by the wet grease/oil/road grime. It's really nasty, unlike anything I have ever seen.

In addition to being a truly disgusting leaker, somebody or several somebodys went way out of their way to make it extremely difficult to service. Should a mechanic have to remove the intake system to access a brake hose connector? I don't think so. Should a mechanic have to remove the intake system and generator to access a starter from the top or remove suspension components to access the starter from the bottom? I don't think so. That's nothing other than incompetent engineering.

There is another high mileage vehicle in my family, a 1971 Dodge van that I bought new and now has 348,000 miles. It is easy to service and has none of the leaks that the 190SL has. It is now on its second engine rebuild and I've replaced the U-joints a few times (they're easily accessible) and I've done a couple of brake jobs (all parts easily accessible) but the mechanical parts are the originals, even the wheel bearings, brake drums and rotors.

Do rubber parts last forever? Certainly not, but my 1971 van and my 1936 Chevy pickup that I restored in the 1970s still have not had any brake hoses "swell shut". Prior to reading this and another Mercedes forum I have never even heard of brake hoses "swelling shut".

Others have told me that the 190SL is notoriously difficult to service. This car has been in my wife's family since the 1960s. It generally had to go to MB dealerships to be serviced because independant garages wanted no part of it. From the brake work I've done I completely understand their refusal to work on this thing. If I hadn't promised my wife that I would "Get it running" I would list it on Craigslist for a give-away price and celibrate when it was driven or hauled away.

Since this is a technical forum I feel comfortable airing this issue out. Perhaps some other poor guy out there is working on one of these things too. He might be relieved to know that the dificulties he's encountering are not his fault. I've also discovered a few things that may help the next guy find parts that fit even though they are not listed for this car.

Maybe someone can suggest parts substitutions that can help me. For example, I've read that the OEM starter is troublesome and that there is an Audi gear reduction starter that may fit.

Ray W
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-09-2013, 03:29 PM
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Hi
I have done a lot of work on 190sl's and can confirm they are a fiddly pain in the arse to work on but then again quite a few cars are, I have also done lots on fifties and sixties Americans and in general found them very straight forward to fix needing little in special tools etc, I love them all in their way even the odd problem child. As for brake hoses swelling internally its not that unusual, oddly I had a 190sl that if you braked gently it stopped in a nice straight line if you tried stopping quickly it would try to turn through one hundred and eighty degrees, the lines had died of old age, what can tend to happen is that the metal fittings rust and that rust squeezes the end of the hose shut. If I am doing any significant work on a cars brakes and don't know how old a set of hoses are they all get replaced, they are not expensive and can safe a lot of hassle later on, as for the issues on the car that started this thread it may be worth checking tyre pressures and condition or possibly the servo is on its way out and is coming in with a bang causing the brakes to snatch.
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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-09-2013, 05:06 PM
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Garage
when your ready let me know and I will get it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waldbaum View Post
[I]" If I hadn't promised my wife that I would "Get it running" I would list it on Craigslist for a give-away price and celebrate when it was driven or hauled away.W
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-09-2013, 05:40 PM
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Dakotabill,

The challenge today is finding brake hoses made somewhere on earth other than China. Both Dorman and Raybestos sell China junk now. The concept of using anything safety related made in China is pretty scary. They put melamine in baby formula and pet food to fool the chemists into thinking those products contain protein. One can only imagine what they put in brake hoses.

Dan,

If she'll let it go you'll be the first to know. I doubt that we'll get lucky, however.

In the meantime I'll move on to freshening up the starter while it's accessible and then we'll see if the old beast will start. I'm expecting the fuel pump diaphram to pop and a few other glitches, but those are to be expected from any engine that hasn't run in 20 years.

The part of this that should actually be fun is jetting the Webers for optimum performance. Hopefully jets are available. In California, the emissions bureaucrats pressure car related businesses to not sell carburetor calibration parts. When I had a '64VW bug decades ago I discovered that round Mikuni main jets for motorcycle applications also fit Solex carbs, making jetting the VW easy. The Mikuni and Solex jet numbering systems are even the same so it's possible to change back and forth between the 2 products without having to convert numbers to actual jet sizes.

Ray W
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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-10-2013, 07:10 AM
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I do pretty much all the work on my '59 cabriolet and admit that I am FAR, FAR from a mechanic. However I have found nearly all the work on it to be straight forward (with the help of the service manuals and forums like this) and the nice thing about it is that darn near everything can be rebuilt. If something goes bad, unlike modern cars, you can rebuild it cheaply and don't have to replace an entire unit just because some small thing failed. Not only that, I've never had a check engine light come on.

On brake hoses, why not just buy ATE hoses and be done with it? They are reasonably cheap, usually easy to find and are OEM equipment.

Len
'59 220S Cabriolet - for sale - http://www.mbzponton.org/mbz220s/sellswap/car4sale.htm
'83 240D original owner 351,500 miles - for sale - http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w123...g-my-240d.html
'88 560SL 41,000 miles being parted out - https://sites.google.com/site/mercedesstuff/home
'99 E300 turbo 196,000 miles
'03 SLK320 34,500 miles
'14 Smart electric
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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-10-2013, 07:57 AM
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"I do pretty much all the work on my '59 cabriolet and admit that I am FAR, FAR from a mechanic. However I have found nearly all the work on it to be straight forward (with the help of the service manuals and forums like this) and the nice thing about it is that darn near everything can be rebuilt. If something goes bad, unlike modern cars, you can rebuild it cheaply and don't have to replace an entire unit just because some small thing failed. Not only that, I've never had a check engine light come on."

Len,

I also am attracted to the simplicity of older vehicles. In general their architecture is both eye candy and easy to servce. That's why I'm so surprised at the mechanical layout of the 190SL that makes what are ordinarily such simple service procedures into extensive projects.

Nobody on this forum chimed in with any first hand experience with the 190SL. Maybe they're not common and nobody who has one checks the forum regularly. I would be grateful for any tips on dealing with this car.

"On brake hoses, why not just buy ATE hoses and be done with it? They are reasonably cheap, usually easy to find and are OEM equipment."

I did look at ATE hoses from Pelican Parts. Their front hoses and one of the rear hoses were not the same lengths as the originals. I was able to find VW Fox hoses that were the correct length for the front and one of the rear hoses in the correct length, all 3 made in USA Raybestos. The one rear hose that was the correct length that I got from Pellican was NOS made in Germany ATE. So I dodged the bullet of China junk. The guy I spoke with at Pelican seemed very concerned about correctly matching the hose lengths but he could only draw from currently available production items on the fronts. The one rear he had turned out to be NOS but i didn't know that until it arrived.

It is uncomfortable for me to quiz parts suppliers about the country of origin of what they're selling. They often immediately get defensive and give me the BS that "They're all the same" which I know is not true. The parts retailers are in the same boat as the rest of us, faced with a flood of low quality crap from China and a near absence of quality parts from North America or western Europe.

The good stuff is out there, but a challenge to find.

Ray W
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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-10-2013, 08:32 AM Thread Starter
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Ray,
Can you educate me what is jetting and can it be done on the Zenith carbs?


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