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post #11 of 53 (permalink) Old 01-21-2011, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
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Something new to report: I applied oil to the poppet shaft and it made a big difference in the vacuum test. Where before it would read something like 20 torr when I released the lever and within seconds blead down to zero, now it jumps to about 70 torr and very slowly drops. This is inspired me to run the engine. Unfortunately no change: a whole lot of white-gray smoke which smells of unburned diesel fuel. This inclines me to think that though the shaft seals do leak, they're probably not leaking fast enough to create the problem. It seems more and more like it might be very retarded timing. Is it possible that the injection pump gear somehow jumped a tooth? The thing I don't get is that the problem has gotten steadily worse. I don't see how the timing could be "slipping" over time. If it's off it would seem like it would be off and not progress. THis is quite aggrevating. I will check the "well-up" timing method this weekend.
Greg
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post #12 of 53 (permalink) Old 01-21-2011, 03:46 PM
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By turning the pump I meant swivel the pump, like you did.

You can check the timing chain stretch by putting the camshaft exactly on its mark:



and than reading the position of the crankshaft



In this case about six degrees late. More than six degrees is not good and the timing chain should be replaced.

Jumping a teeth is not very likely, unless you turned the engine in the wrong way or used the camshaft bolt to turn the engine. Timing chain stretch is was normally delays injection timing and valve timing.


The overflow method.

You start by cleaning your diesel pump, use brake cleaner, toothbrush and such like so that there is no dirt on the outside. Remove the securing bolt with the two half moons that is inbetween the pipe connections.



Move engine to about 30 degrees BTDC in the compression stroke of cylinder 1.

Remove the injector line from cylinder one. Here you can see the pipe connections without the injector lines. You need only to remove the first line at this stage. It is a slightly more modern MRSF pump, but the principle is the same. Remove the securing bolt with the two half moons that is inbetween the pipe connections.



Now unscrew the pipe connection and carefully lift it out, now you can see this:



Take a pair of pliers (clean it first thoroughly with brake cleaner or something similar) and carefully remove the spring.



Now you can see this, the delivery valve in the delivery valve holder and a copper seal ring.



Use the pliers to remove the delivery valve





And store both spring and delivery valve in a safe and clean spot:



Now you see this, the delivery valve holder and the copper ring.



Make sure it is somewhat in the middle, screw back the pipe connection and torque to about 30-35 Nm. Screw on the spout.



Start and keep pumping the hand pump and watch the spout. When it drips about 1 drip a second, it is the start of delivery. If it is flowing, the engine has to turn further. If it doesn't drip, start of delivery has passed.

Here is a youtube movie, not entirely perfect, but you get the idea of the dripping. I was hand pumping and filming at the same time, I swivelled the pump some more to get the correct dripping.


Normally the diesel will flow at 30 degrees BTDC. Now turn the engine a degree at the time until diesel starts to drip at 1 drop a second. Now read the position of the engine on the harmonic balancer. If adjustment is necessary, unscrew the three bolts, the bolt at the back of the pump and the hard injector lines. Swivel the pump to adjust, towards the engine advances the start of delivery; from the engine is a later begin of delivery.

When you start pumping the handpump, fasten a bolt of the diesel pump, otherwise timing might be affected. If correct fasten the other two.

There should not be pressure on the hard injector lines when you screw them back on. Bent them by hand and carefully.

Now the spout can be removed. Unscrew the pipe connection. Renew the copper washer (get one at the MB dealer, do not use a generic copper washer) and you might want to renew the rubber O ring around the pipe connection. Put back the delivery valve and spring. Screw the pipe connection into place. Now you need to torque it, that is essential. First torque to 30 Nm, than loosen it. Torque it again to 30 Nm and loosen it. Now finally torque it to 35 Nm. Put back the bolt with the two half moons.

Last edited by Govert70227; 01-22-2011 at 12:15 AM.
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post #13 of 53 (permalink) Old 01-22-2011, 04:50 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Govert70227 View Post
By turning the pump I meant swivel the pump, like you did.

You can check the timing chain stretch by putting the camshaft exactly on its mark:



and than reading the position of the crankshaft



In this case about six degrees late. More than six degrees is not good and the timing chain should be replaced.

Jumping a teeth is not very likely, unless you turned the engine in the wrong way or used the camshaft bolt to turn the engine. Timing chain stretch is was normally delays injection timing and valve timing.


The overflow method.

You start by cleaning your diesel pump, use brake cleaner, toothbrush and such like so that there is no dirt on the outside. Remove the securing bolt with the two half moons that is inbetween the pipe connections.



Move engine to about 30 degrees BTDC in the compression stroke of cylinder 1.

Remove the injector line from cylinder one. Here you can see the pipe connections without the injector lines. You need only to remove the first line at this stage. It is a slightly more modern MRSF pump, but the principle is the same. Remove the securing bolt with the two half moons that is inbetween the pipe connections.



Now unscrew the pipe connection and carefully lift it out, now you can see this:



Take a pair of pliers (clean it first thoroughly with brake cleaner or something similar) and carefully remove the spring.



Now you can see this, the delivery valve in the delivery valve holder and a copper seal ring.



Use the pliers to remove the delivery valve





And store both spring and delivery valve in a safe and clean spot:



Now you see this, the delivery valve holder and the copper ring.



Make sure it is somewhat in the middle, screw back the pipe connection and torque to about 30-35 Nm. Screw on the spout.



Start and keep pumping the hand pump and watch the spout. When it drips about 1 drip a second, it is the start of delivery. If it is flowing, the engine has to turn further. If it doesn't drip, start of delivery has passed.

Here is a youtube movie, not entirely perfect, but you get the idea of the dripping. I was hand pumping and filming at the same time, I swivelled the pump some more to get the correct dripping.

YouTube - Timing MRSF diesel pump on a Mercedes-Benz OM616 engine

Normally the diesel will flow at 30 degrees BTDC. Now turn the engine a degree at the time until diesel starts to drip at 1 drop a second. Now read the position of the engine on the harmonic balancer. If adjustment is necessary, unscrew the three bolts, the bolt at the back of the pump and the hard injector lines. Swivel the pump to adjust, towards the engine advances the start of delivery; from the engine is a later begin of delivery.

When you start pumping the handpump, fasten a bolt of the diesel pump, otherwise timing might be affected. If correct fasten the other two.

There should not be pressure on the hard injector lines when you screw them back on. Bent them by hand and carefully.

Now the spout can be removed. Unscrew the pipe connection. Renew the copper washer (get one at the MB dealer, do not use a generic copper washer) and you might want to renew the rubber O ring around the pipe connection. Put back the delivery valve and spring. Screw the pipe connection into place. Now you need to torque it, that is essential. First torque to 30 Nm, than loosen it. Torque it again to 30 Nm and loosen it. Now finally torque it to 35 Nm. Put back the bolt with the two half moons.
Hi Again, I checked the chain stretch as you directed, aligning the notch on the camshaft washer with the mark in the camshaft bearing support, then checking the crankshaft pulley timing marks. It was no more than 2 degrees off.
I then checked the onset of injection using the well-up method you described earlier. Boy it is tough to see since the volume is so tiny, but it's 15 deg BTDC at earliest. THe problem I have is that the injection pump is swiveled as far up as it goes (closest to the engine). So do you think this is the root of my problem? How did the timing change? Why has it gotten progressively worse if the chains not stretched?
Thanks again,
Greg
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post #14 of 53 (permalink) Old 01-22-2011, 04:55 PM Thread Starter
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OK, I have an odd-ball thought. I told you earlier that I adjusted the timing of the injection pump before but it did no good so put it back. Is it possible that when I loosened the three bolts holding the pump and moved it that there was enough play that it skipped a tooth then? Hmmm.... very confusing.
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post #15 of 53 (permalink) Old 01-22-2011, 07:15 PM Thread Starter
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I repeated the well-up method several times and I seem to get a little better at it each time. When I note the fuel just begining to well-up in the injector I check the timing marks and it's just past 15 deg BTDC (before 10 deg BTDC). I'm tempted to pull the pump out and reinstall in order to be able to have some adjustment. Do you think this is wise, or should I try the other method (drip spout) before I do this?
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post #16 of 53 (permalink) Old 01-23-2011, 06:32 AM
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Normally the well-up method is helped by screwing a thin, thermometer-like tube on the pipe connection, so that you can see the diesel rising more easily. The well-up method is less precise than the overflow method. The question is whether the 15 BTDC is correct, if so, that can explain the smoke. Diesel injected at 15 degrees BTDC cannot warm up and ignite. If you want to be sure, get a spout (MB part # 636589022300) and do the test again. Alternatively you can use the well-up method to put the begin of delivery at 24 degrees and see if that helps. A slight warning: diesel injection advances too much leads to high temperature and stress on the engine (piston is still moving up while the diesel ignites and push down on the piston). If you take the pump out, you might want to use a new gasket. If it really is at 15 degrees and the pump is swivelled to the engine (have you removed the bracket at the back of the pump?), than the pump has to come out and put back so that you have room to swivel.

If you do get a spout (or make one), you can also check the pump by testing the begin of delivery of cylinder nr. 4. There should be no more than 2 degrees difference.

Leaves the question how the pump moved from 24 degrees to 15 without a stretched chain. The worst I've seen is 19 degrees on a 300TDT. I don't know the answer to this one. Maybe the injection timing device is not working properly?

Skipping a teeth is not really possible unless you pull the pump out of the engine.

How many miles are on the engine?
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post #17 of 53 (permalink) Old 01-23-2011, 08:48 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Govert70227 View Post
Normally the well-up method is helped by screwing a thin, thermometer-like tube on the pipe connection, so that you can see the diesel rising more easily. The well-up method is less precise than the overflow method. The question is whether the 15 BTDC is correct, if so, that can explain the smoke. Diesel injected at 15 degrees BTDC cannot warm up and ignite. If you want to be sure, get a spout (MB part # 636589022300) and do the test again. Alternatively you can use the well-up method to put the begin of delivery at 24 degrees and see if that helps. A slight warning: diesel injection advances too much leads to high temperature and stress on the engine (piston is still moving up while the diesel ignites and push down on the piston). If you take the pump out, you might want to use a new gasket. If it really is at 15 degrees and the pump is swivelled to the engine (have you removed the bracket at the back of the pump?), than the pump has to come out and put back so that you have room to swivel.

If you do get a spout (or make one), you can also check the pump by testing the begin of delivery of cylinder nr. 4. There should be no more than 2 degrees difference.

Leaves the question how the pump moved from 24 degrees to 15 without a stretched chain. The worst I've seen is 19 degrees on a 300TDT. I don't know the answer to this one. Maybe the injection timing device is not working properly?

Skipping a teeth is not really possible unless you pull the pump out of the engine.

How many miles are on the engine?
The odometer stopped working many many years ago, so I really don't have a clue. This is the second of 3 MB diesels that my Dad owned. The first was a 1964 190D - that had a lot of miles on it. He bought this one used and a few years later bought a 300 TD. By then the 220D wasn't driven much. He passed away 9 years ago and the 220D has just sat with my brother starting it once a month to "keep the juices flowing" until I started driving it about a year ago.

Thanks for the comment on the gearing of the pump. If I pull it out I'll have to take a good look. I don't really understand how it can be geared to the intermediate shaft and turn in the same direction, but of course you're right. Thanks for the diagram, but I'm really not sure what I'm looking at. I moved the pump yesterday afternoon to confirm it (can't help myself!); I checked the timing after moving the pump away from the engine and it was at about 0 deg TDC.
Greg
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post #18 of 53 (permalink) Old 01-23-2011, 10:45 AM
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This is how the chain runs through the engine:



98 is the timing device, which is connected to the intermediate gear shaft, which drives the injection pump. If the crankshaft turns to the right, the intermediate gear shaft turns to the right.

This diagram shows the intermediate gear shaft:



98 is again the timing device, just above 94 you can see the chain. 111 is the diesel pump. It is slightly different with your engine, because the diesel pump has its own oil and is not provided through the engine oil circuit, but the principle is the same. The diesel pump is connected directly on the intermediate gear shaft.

Starting engines and not running them until warm is not good for engines. The oil becomes very acidic.
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post #19 of 53 (permalink) Old 01-23-2011, 12:52 PM Thread Starter
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OK, I get it! Those are splines on the end of the injection pump not a spur gear! I doubt that you'll be back here until tomorrow, so I probably should have asked this earlier, but are there any pitfalls to avoid in removing and reinstalling the injection pump? Any special hints to get it right?
Thanks,
Greg
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post #20 of 53 (permalink) Old 01-23-2011, 01:25 PM
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It is not a spur gear, the pump is driven by a coupling sleeve over the splines.

There might be a rubber O ring on the axle of the injection pump that needs to be replaced and a new gasket is also advisable to prevent oil leakage.

The shaft of the pump needs to be free of oil and grease.

Take the pump out on 24 degrees BTDC and look if the marks on the pump line up when you take it out. That gives you an indication of whether timing of the pump was off the mark.



Also cover the open pipe connections of the pump with same plastic cling film (or special plastic caps) to prevent dirt entering the pump.
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