I've gotten everything torn apart and am now starting the actual installation process. I removed the entire manifold (both sections plus the throttle body) so I can get the TPS working in my house rather than on the car, and everything cleaned up just like new with only a few minutes of brushing in hot detergent water.
I'm using the fuel rails from the earlier Bosch EFI setup and this will make my life easier than having to fabricate aluminum fuel rails. I'll be holding the injectors (stock Ford 5.0 H.O Bosch units @19lb/hr) in the heads using small hold down clamps at the existing manifold locations so the fuel rail can use short sections of flexible fuel line to feed each injector. I trial fit the injectors in the heads without the plastic sleeves and to all appearances they fit perfectly, almost as if they were designed for the application. I'll see if I have any problems with leaking or heat soak later.
One surprise I got was finding a mouse nest the size of a football and lots of seeds and acorn pieces under the intake manifold. It must have been constructed during the time the previous owner had the car sitting in his yard for awhile, because I've been driving it around for the last year and a half and haven't seen any mice. :^)
I'm documenting copiously with pictures but I'm going to wait until I've completed the installation of the ECU, relay board, fuel delivery system, sensors and wiring before I update again, and then I'll post a bunch of pictures, I anticipate about two weeks from now.
I am happy to hear you are making progress. Did you have to turn down the fuel injectors to fit or did they just fit right in stock? 19lbs/hr mustang injectors is what I used also.
I recall having a bunch of crap in the valley of my engine also. She will probabally run a couple of degrees cooler just by getting all the dirt out.
You have probabally taped over the intake ports in the head but if you haven't you might consider doing so. I still got a bunch of gunk in mine when my intake was removed. I ended up blowing everything out with compressed air.
Where did you find the bosch fuel rails? I looked for a couple of months without any success. Another problem I had was adapting the metric mercedes fuel fittings to AN fittings. I ended up cutting the rubber off of some of the existing hose fittings and clamping 3/8" fuel hose on those. My mercedes fittings had some long metal tubing on them which made this pretty easy. The rubber hose I cut off was very brittle. You might be avoiding this altogether with the Bosch plumbing.
IAC (Iddle Air Control) - Have you decided on what you are going to do for the Idle Air control? I started with a GM solenoid in DIY autotunes aluminum block but last week I switched back to the Mercedes IAC and it is working very nicely and looks a lot cleaner. There were two aluminum castings on my Mercedes IAC. A casting that held the cold start injector and a piece that mounted to the intake and was in the coolant stream. I had left this casting on previously because I never made a piece to seal the coolant hole. I am much happier with the Mercedes IAC and the stock Mercedes IAC black rubber tubing than my creation even though the MErcedes is thermally controlled and not electrically controlled.
What are you using for the Fuel Pressure regulator. I started with a cheap fancy adjustable one off of ebay with a built in pressure gage. I switched to the volvo pressure regulator that everyone on the megaboards talks about. It takes up a lot less under the hood realestate. It was nice to have the adjustable for tuning and checking for leaks though.
When I was fitting together my fuel system components I cliped my battery charger directly to my fuel pump. I removed the wires from the fuel pump first. This worked out well because I could pump a lot of fuel through the system while checking for leaks. I plugged my charger into an extension cord so I could easily turn the fuel pump on and off while I was under the hood by plugging in / unplugging the charger.
While I was connecting the charger to the fuel pump late one evening I wasn't careful and I touched the charger clamp to the positive lead that goes to the fuel pump. This shorted out the fuel pump relay and I had to replace the relay.
The ring shaped fuel injector retainers that hold the CIS injectors in work perfectly for holding the electronic injectors in if you cut off the far side of the clip. This makes them "U" shaped instead of "O" shaped and they fit right into the stock mounting holes and hold the injectors very nicely. This has several advantages over an aluminium fuel rail in that you won't have the alignment issues that I had. I think you will find no sealing problems with your approach. I have had no heat soak problems at all with my injectors mounted in direct contact with the head.
I would be very interested in seeing a picture of the Bosch fuel plumbing if you could post a picture sometime? Does the fuel hose connect to the injectors with metal clips that slide into a slot in the injector? I found some injector holders that clip onto the injectors like this but they were around $25 each which was out of my budget.
Have you decided on a location for the CLT (Coolant tempature sensor)? I enlarged the hole right above the water pump and mounted mine there. This was a bad idea because the tempature sensor that was there controlled my auxillary fan. Are you going with an electric fan to replace the stock fan and fan clutch? I am very interested to see what you come up with for an electric fan.
Please let me know what you find on the TPS. I am very interested!
--I did not have to turn down the injector barrels. They fit perfectly. Yes, I am still amazed. :^)
--I stuffed a shop paper towel rolled up into an egg shape into each intake opening and then vacuumed the entire area clean with a shop vac and a small brush.
--I found the stock Bosch fuel rails on 'ebay' from this M/B store eBay Store - Mercedes Used Parts Part: BenzBonz Auto body Engine, Transmission Tires Wheels, Brakes Turbo Fan Radiator
--I'm going to keep the existing AuxAirValve for fast idle as it seems to work fine, even though it's mechanical in nature, not electrical.
--Since I scored a bunch of Mustang 5.0 FI parts all at once from a buddy of mine, I'm using the stock fuel pressure regulator from that application (I think it's 47psi); it came with the 19lb/hr injectors. I also got the EDIS-8 coils, wires, module and harness from him. I'm still looking for the crank sensor and pigtail to go with the 36-1 wheel.
--Too bad about your fuel pump relay, but I did something less wise than that. My new Bosch fuel pump only lasted a few weeks before it burned out and when I replaced it AGAIN (for $220 more dollars!) I found that I had crimped the terminals on the wrong wires and that caused me to reverse the + and - wires on the pump, and I assume that the pump burned out because of that.
-- Good thinking with the injector hold downs; I was thinking of doing exactly that. I'm glad that it worked for you, but did this require you to position the injector connectors facing the outside of the engine (as in your picture)? I would like to keep the connectors facing in, for reasons of visual appeal.
--The Bosch fuel rails will NOT directly interface with my injectors and my immediate project is to accomplish this, probably by simply cutting high pressure fuel line into 8 sections of one inch long each and clamping one end to the nozzle on the fuel rail and the other end onto the fuel injector inlet.
--I'm just going to remove the bung from the spare hole in the intake manifold water passage toward the front and use that for the CLT.
--I have an electric fan and its shroud, thermostat and switch that was originally from another Mustang GT that will work nicely. I've had/still have lots of Mustang parts. :^) Mounting it should be a simple matter of fabricating a few small and simple brackets.
-- I haven't found a TPS yet, but looking for one starts tomorrow! Some veteran posters on the MS forum have suggested going to the auto parts store and asking to root through the boxes of multitudes of TPS's and see if you can find one that matches close enough to work with no or little modification.
They are the irregular steel tubes about 1/4" diameter running paralell to the valve covers and surrounded by tons of hoses, wires and miscellaneous b.s. :^)
They run to each injector with a simple flare end and are connected to the injectors with short sections of fuel line and hose clamps. I'll get some pictures of my own up shortly.
--I did not have to turn down the injector barrels. They fit perfectly. Yes, I am still amazed. :^)
SWEET! It will be so nice to be able to change injectors anytime you want. Ford has some generation 2 Bosch 19lb injectors in there 4.6's that have 4 nozzle outlets instead of just one that are supposed to atomize the fuel better for better efficiency. You will be able to just drop these in if you ever come across a set. (Not that there is any reason you would need to).
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbar
--I stuffed a shop paper towel rolled up into an egg shape into each intake opening and then vacuumed the entire area clean with a shop vac and a small brush.
Very good. I still got a bunch of crud in my heads which isn't much of a problem on the cylinders with closed intake valves.
Excellent, The fuel rails were by far the hardest part (At least until I got to the wiring, then the troubleshooting, then the tuning... then the...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbar
--I'm going to keep the existing AuxAirValve for fast idle as it seems to work fine, even though it's mechanical in nature, not electrical.
Great, I like this approach. Megasquirt adjusts the amount of fuel to the amount of air it detects / calculates is entering your engine. So the thermal cold idle valve works very nicely. It is very handy to have the manually adjustable idle air valve for tweaking idle while you are working on other tuning stuff too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbar
--Since I scored a bunch of Mustang 5.0 FI parts all at once from a buddy of mine, I'm using the stock fuel pressure regulator from that application (I think it's 47psi); it came with the 19lb/hr injectors. I also got the EDIS-8 coils, wires, module and harness from him. I'm still looking for the crank sensor and pigtail to go with the 36-1 wheel.
When I started I purchased a mustang fuel system off of ebay for a great price. It came with the injectors, rails, pressure regulator, connectors and the throttle body. The only parts I ended up using were the injectors and the connectors. The mustang fuel rail I purchased had the fuel injector holes at much too much of an angle to butcher it then use it like I was hoping. The fuel rail also had a piece welded onto it with the fuel pressure regulator screwed to this piece. It made it so I couldn't easily use the mustang pressure regulator. They refer to a fuel pressure regulator on megaboard for a volvo "I think" that has hose barb fittings. This is what I ended up using. Napa carries it. I can tell you from adjusting my adjustable fuel pressure regulator the the actual fuel pressure isn't that big of a deal as long as it adjusts with the manifold pressure. (I think all fuel pressure regulators do). On my regulator the gas goes in the bottom and out the side with the vacuum port on top. If you swap the bottom and side fuel hoses I happen to know it will make a mess.
Since I have been conversing with you I marvel at the amount of underhood space I would have if I no longer had a distributor in the engine bay. (I still have fantacies about an Eaton M90 blower from a 3.8l wedged into the valley of the intake but this is a long ways off for me) The megaboard makes the edis ignition sound pretty easy and very worth it. (less moving parts, less HP robing rotational mass etc). Does the oil pump run off of the distributor gear like some chevys? It sounds like you have almost every thing you need. ...no bosch ignition module = even more realestate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbar
--Too bad about your fuel pump relay, but I did something less wise than that. My new Bosch fuel pump only lasted a few weeks before it burned out and when I replaced it AGAIN (for $220 more dollars!) I found that I had crimped the terminals on the wrong wires and that caused me to reverse the + and - wires on the pump, and I assume that the pump burned out because of that.
Yeah, it was right as I was about to crank it over for the first time. I ended up pulling the black plastic shell off of the relay and soldering a couple of wires to replace the traces I smoked. This worked until my ebay relay arrived. I always do these things when I am excited and rushing instead of taking my time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbar
-- Good thinking with the injector hold downs; I was thinking of doing exactly that. I'm glad that it worked for you, but did this require you to position the injector connectors facing the outside of the engine (as in your picture)? I would like to keep the connectors facing in, for reasons of visual appeal.
With my current configuration I am not using the modified stock injector hold down clips the fuel injectors are just sandwiched between the fuel rail and the head. But, Yes, I used the holes in the intake to secure my fabricated fuel rail clips requiring the injector connectors to face the valve covers. I don't know if you will be able to file the lower portion of the "U" in the stock injector clips deep enough to mount the injector connectors facing inwards. I started with the modified stock clips holding the injectors and trying to use springs to hold the fuel rails on the injectors this is how I know the stock clips are perfect for the electronic injectors other than requiring the connectors face out.
In the picture you will notice that when I reassembled the injectors I assembled them in this order from bottom up. Hat, spacer, O-ring. I think they came with the O-ring and the spacer reversed. On my head I can feel the bottom o-ring starting to expand in the injector hole when the injector is fully seated. With the spacer on top of the O-Ring the injectors didn't seat quite as tight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbar
--The Bosch fuel rails will NOT directly interface with my injectors and my immediate project is to accomplish this, probably by simply cutting high pressure fuel line into 8 sections of one inch long each and clamping one end to the nozzle on the fuel rail and the other end onto the fuel injector inlet.
.25" ^ 2 * Pi * 50psi = 10 lbs of force trying to blow the fuel line off of the injector. I would expect a hose clamp would handle this no problem with plenty of room to spare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbar
--I'm just going to remove the bung from the spare hole in the intake manifold water passage toward the front and use that for the CLT.
--I have an electric fan and its shroud, thermostat and switch that was originally from another Mustang GT that will work nicely. I've had/still have lots of Mustang parts. :^) Mounting it should be a simple matter of fabricating a few small and simple brackets.
I really like this idea. I forget how much I paid when I replaced the fan clutch but I do remember it not being cheap. It seems like airflow and cooling would actually increase with an electric fan and pulling out the auxillary cooling fan. I am looking forwards to knowing how it works when you get to this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbar
-- I haven't found a TPS yet, but looking for one starts tomorrow! Some veteran posters on the MS forum have suggested going to the auto parts store and asking to root through the boxes of multitudes of TPS's and see if you can find one that matches close enough to work with no or little modification.
Oh, this will be great if you are able to find something! You will have my eternal gratitude if you don't mind sharing if you are able to find something
I am happy to report I made a lot of progress tuning my 450SLC last night. One thing led to another and all of the pieces have really fallen into place.
My timing light is probably 50 years old and it requires a physical connection instead of using an inductive pickup. Last time I timed my Mercedes the procedure gave me a large dose of negative feedback. Last night I borrowed a friends inductive pickup timing light and found that I was over 20 degrees off from where I thought I was. I had 10 degrees correction in magatune instead of -10 degrees and needless to say this made a huge difference. She now starts right up where I had to crank a bit before and idles smoother than ever. She also runs a lot cooler. I will post my latest maps shortly. I am completely amazed at how low she will idle smoothly!
The ignition timing is very easy to run with megasquirt. I am using the lead from the bosch ignition to the positive side of the coil as the rpm sensor for megasquirt. To enable megasquirt ignition control all I have to do is remove these two wires from the positive side of the coil and leave them connected together then replace them with the Megasquirt coil driver wire to the coil. This makes it very easy to switch back and forth between mega ignition and stock ignition using spade connectors. I am actually using an MSD to drive my coil but the operation is the same.
I looked through Mercedes Tech CD last night and I am happy to report that my distributor doesn't use a centrifugal advance. There are two vacuum ports on the distributor and I believe they are vacuum retard and vacuum advance. On the stock ignition without the vacuum ports connected the timing stays the same throughout the RPM range.
I have been considering trying to junk-yard a knock sensor that matches the harmonics of my engine but from what I have read on the MegaBoards the gurus don’t see much need for one. With the compression as low as it is on my 1980 engine (Lowest compression V8 Mercedes ever imported by my research) I can’t see much of a need for the knock sensor either.
I am so pleased with how smooth she runs now I just ordered the Relay board kit so I can take some pictures and "show off" my injection system without being ashamed of my wiring. Those German guys didn't leave much firewall / fender real-estate under the hood though.
This leaves me with:
1) Clean up the wiring and put all the panels and stuff back together.
2) TPS.
3) Plumb a permanent air filter.
I am going to try to find the time this weekend to pull the intake and throttle body and go TPS shopping. I am a some what familiar face at my local Nappa and from past service experience with them I am pretty sure they will help me out finding a TPS.
As far as knock sensors go, the "Bosch Automotive Handbook" seems to imply that they are more or less engineered for the car they will be put in and that placement is critical to how (or if) they work. This makes it necessary to have at least 4 knock sensors in a V-8 application (1 sensor between each pair of cylinders) because knock typically occurs in 1 cylinder first and detection at onset is important for proper knock control. My Haynes manual says that my 1978 engine and your 1980 engine are both the same at 4520 cc's and 8.0:1 compression ratio. Knock would then seem to be of little concern unless you were running ridiculous amounts of boost or truly unwise amounts of timing advance.
I've been looking for a TPS that I can modify to fit the stock throttle body (I measured it to be 65mm, which is just about the perfect size) and I think one from a mustang GT 5.0 will work with the addition of a small piece of bracketry added and a few holes tapped for screws. I expect to procure one this week and start work on it and hope to fininsh it this weekend. No matter what, I'll post pictures of what I've got so far, as I've been documenting everything. I intend to write up the whole project complete with thourough pics and illustrations when it's all running.
Thanks for the update. This weekend I toar the intake out of my 450 to get at the TPS. I spent an hour+ at Nappa looking at TPS's but they were all much bigger than the Mercedes TP switch.
I think the Mustang throttle body is also 65mm. Does your Mustang throttle body look like it will be anywhere close to fitting the Mercedes intake? My Mustang throttle body has an integrated IAC valve and MAF sensor. It is way to big but some of the Mustang throttle bodies on ebay look much more compact.
I can tell you My 450 was (prior to this weekend) running very nicely without a TPS. Without throttle enrichment the AFR would stay between 13.5:1 to 15.5:1. I am thinking of going back to running a potentiometer off of the first throttle linkage with a lever and a rod. I am pretty confident this will work but I really don't like the looks of it.
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