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post #11 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-28-2006, 05:24 AM
TNS
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Look like everybody has reached the same conclusion as I have but applying some lateral thinking there are some posibilities as follows:
1. Exhaust: I have seen the headers that are used by AMG and they are split as pairs on each side. Two pipes coming from each bank and then you go dual to the back of the car. An earlier post is nearly there just needs the headers.
2. Air intake: All modern cars have switched to cold air intakes which makes sense, whereas ours still breathe the hot air under the hood.
These are the simple ones
Now the more difficult:
1. A new brain such as a Haltech unit or for the DYI people the Megasquirt. These both are fully programable using a laptop whilst you are a passenger or on a Dyno. Both have O2 sensors which gives the feeback to make sure the fuel / air ratio is right. Max power for your litre.
2. Manual Transmission Conversion: There is a site here in Australia which is by a company that produces manual tranny conversion kits for the M100 engine - 6.3L & 6.9L Check the following link: www.big-toys.net
I have a 74 450SLC and I am looking at doing all of the above as I believe that it is achievable.
Other things like increased compression, cams etc are all too hard and generally should only be sought from AMG. I have tried this avenue but without success so far..........
Hope it helps!!
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post #12 of 61 (permalink) Old 10-01-2006, 07:35 AM
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Contrary to what a lot people say,you can get all sorts of power rom the 450 engine...in the US you have the option of ringing Isky himself ,and I'll bet his son Ron has already ground a profile or two for mecedes Engines in the past.
If you want extra horses,PUT THE COLD AIR TUBE BACK ON!!! Mercedes have had this idea on their cars since 1959 with good reason! it WORKS!.
Any 6.9 owner wil tell that just installing a W126 560 air cleaner with the twin snorkles gives more power that you can actually feel.
make sure the engine is a high compression engine and not a low compression item from a W116 or even a W109.....
The intake is pretty small for a V8 and I think if twin throttle bodies were installed on the intake manifold a lot more horsepower would be unleashed.


The Kjet Injection air meter body could be swapped for a 560 intake,the fuel distributors are the same but the plate area is larger.
I still like the idea of fitting a larger engine and I have been assisting a guy to install a 6.9 into a W107...not at all easy actaully.AMG made a special crossmember,shifted the location of the oil filter ( 6.9's are different to 6.3's ) and made a diffrent hood to clear the engine.They even made a new injection system for the three cars they built with the 6.9 ( bored to 7.2....}:-) )
Heres one with a 6.3 ...

We have been discussing this swap for some time now here:
http://www.m-100.cc/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1162
The guy I'm helping has spoken with the man at AMG ( Germany) who did all the work onthe W107 engine swaps ,so we are on the right track so far...
AMG still have lots of parts in stock,but you need to able to Quote part numbers befoe you will get a response.
.
The exhuast on the right can be made by any competant muffler shop...

Last edited by mercmad6.3; 10-01-2006 at 07:39 AM.
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post #13 of 61 (permalink) Old 10-03-2006, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNS
Look like everybody has reached the same conclusion as I have but applying some lateral thinking there are some posibilities as follows:
1. Exhaust: I have seen the headers that are used by AMG and they are split as pairs on each side. Two pipes coming from each bank and then you go dual to the back of the car. An earlier post is nearly there just needs the headers.
2. Air intake: All modern cars have switched to cold air intakes which makes sense, whereas ours still breathe the hot air under the hood.
These are the simple ones
Now the more difficult:
1. A new brain such as a Haltech unit or for the DYI people the Megasquirt. These both are fully programable using a laptop whilst you are a passenger or on a Dyno. Both have O2 sensors which gives the feeback to make sure the fuel / air ratio is right. Max power for your litre.
2. Manual Transmission Conversion: There is a site here in Australia which is by a company that produces manual tranny conversion kits for the M100 engine - 6.3L & 6.9L Check the following link: www.big-toys.net
I have a 74 450SLC and I am looking at doing all of the above as I believe that it is achievable.
Other things like increased compression, cams etc are all too hard and generally should only be sought from AMG. I have tried this avenue but without success so far..........
Hope it helps!!
Couple of thoughts:
Easy Options 1 & 2: Would both give a bigger benifit if you enlarge and polish the inlet and exhaust ports on the headers.
Difficult option 1: I believe the '74 has the electronic fuel injection which was dropped due to lack of emission control. What it does do well is dump loads of fuel into the engine especially at full throttle. A modern engine management system may provide smoother running, as it will control fuel timing and quantity more accurately, but it may not give more top end power.
Difficult option 2: I doubt the M100 tranny will bolt onto the 117 engine without a lot of adapting/cost/pain.

How much time and money are you looking to invest in the possible benefits. You could import a Euro spec model and get 40 extra bhp straight away.

Last edited by GaryF; 10-03-2006 at 10:29 AM.
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post #14 of 61 (permalink) Old 02-23-2007, 11:28 AM
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[ A new brain such as a Haltech unit or for the DYI people the Megasquirt. These both are fully programable using a laptop whilst you are a passenger or on a Dyno. Both have O2 sensors which gives the feeback to make sure the fuel / air ratio is right. Max power for your litre.]


I'm ordering the "Megasquirt II" unit and other parts today from 'DIY Autotune' to install on my 78 450 SEL in place of the Bosch mechanical fuel injection. Others at the MS forum have reportedl horsepower gains as well as substantial fuel economy increses doing this swap.

I also want to do the header swap and I think that ordering some generic Ford 302 headers (around $140) should be useful if I make new flanges and perform a modest amount of cutting, bending and welding.

Does anyone know which 4 speed automatics fit in place of the stock 3 speed slushbox?
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post #15 of 61 (permalink) Old 02-23-2007, 11:52 PM
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Don't worry about swapping the slushie. Nothing else fits straight on. And the 3 speed was so good MB left it on their rally and racing SLC's.
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post #16 of 61 (permalink) Old 02-25-2007, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbar
[ A new brain such as a Haltech unit or for the DYI people the Megasquirt. These both are fully programable using a laptop whilst you are a passenger or on a Dyno. Both have O2 sensors which gives the feeback to make sure the fuel / air ratio is right. Max power for your litre.]


I'm ordering the "Megasquirt II" unit and other parts today from 'DIY Autotune' to install on my 78 450 SEL in place of the Bosch mechanical fuel injection. Others at the MS forum have reportedl horsepower gains as well as substantial fuel economy increses doing this swap.
The megasquirt requires electronic injectors which means you will have to bore out the injector ports on the heads to fit them.Unless you remove ther intake mainfolds and jam rags down the ports ,you are going to get lots of Swarf in the engine. not a good thing to have happen.


Quote:
I also want to do the header swap and I think that ordering some generic Ford 302 headers (around $140) should be useful if I make new flanges and perform a modest amount of cutting, bending and welding.
I have seen this done before,on a M-100 though.it involves cutting the ford flanges off and rotating them to fit the Mercedes head bolts. the collector was removed and the pipes shortened to fit the manifolds( headers) into the car,a W113 .(!!) The pipe spacing is similar to the mercedes ons so they almost fit .

Quote:
Does anyone know which 4 speed automatics fit in place of the stock 3 speed slushbox?
They all fit.the only difference is the shift gates in the console.The top three ratios are the same,but the extra gear is a low first.In normal operation the trans moves off in second,unless you plant the loud pedal ,then it starts in first in the kickdown mode.If you want to use a later 4 speed from a w126 you could use the shift gate with the "B" position which enables first to be selected for those smokey starts .
Convertors etc are all the same. be prepared for a bit of drive shaft swapping about though,some cars came with longer than normal shafts which are too long to fit the 722.313 (etc) trans .
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post #17 of 61 (permalink) Old 02-28-2007, 06:35 PM
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Ford Headers

I have seen small block headers in various configurations at very low prices on Ebay-some for practically just the shipping plus a few bucks. . Might be worth a few bucks to buy some inexpensive used 302 headers to see how much modification it would take to make them fit.
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post #18 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-16-2007, 01:20 AM
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Well a year has passed since my last post here and I have finally found that there IS a V8 in my 450slc. My MEgaSquirt computer is now installed and working. I was having a lot of trouble tuning the mMEgaSquirt and getting the Mercedes to run smooth so I took about a six month hiatus and recently just started this project back up. I ended up purchasing an Inovative LC-1 wideband O2 sensor and installing it in place of the stock Mercedes sensor (screwed right in). This with a new version of the MegaSquirt firmware has worked wonders on my old 450slc!!

The new version of megasquirt firmware has an autotune function that updates the VE table in flash as you drive so the system now in essence tunes itself. Man what a difference!!! Not only does the 450 accelerate much faster, drive smoother but it finally idles smooth as silk. I pinched off the idle air port down to almost nothing and she idles very smooth all the way to 450rpm!

It no longer chokes when coming to a stop and I dare say it is getting to be darn near as fast as my 2003 Maxima (OK maybe I am a little enthusiastic.)

My biggest performance problem is now the automatic transmission. It still shifts smooth but the low shift points limits any really aggressive acceleration. Now from 50mph to 100mph (ok 85mph with the needle starting to bow) is without a doubt as fast as my maxima which also has great power in this band. I can imagine that a stick shift with this configuration would be quite a car.

I still have a fair bit of clean up work to do. I have a GM IAC (Idle air control valve) installed but not wired up yet. My TPS (throttle position sensor) that I rigged up as an extension off of the first throttle linkage with a short piece of rubber tubing is flaking on me and is currently disabled. The stock TPS is just a switch that makes contact at WOT (wide open throttle). I would like to find a variable resistor TPS that would replace the stock one but it is a hard part to get too without taking off the intake manifold. A variable resistor TPS would allow me to tune the AE (acceleration enrichment) table for even better acceleration. I also need to do some plumbing to fit an air filter. The stock air filter can definitely won't work.

I will try to make a list of what I have in her so far:
1) MegaSquirt V2 - board rev 3.
2) MegaStim (Stimulator board for building and testing the megasquirt)
3) MegaSquirt wiring harness / cable (I would definitely do the relay board next time and I might switch to the relay board)
4) Inovative LC-1 wideband O2 sensor.
5) 3 sets of fuel rails. The first was copper tubing and sucked. The second was made out of aluminum fuel rail stock and I didn't have the injector bungs drilled perfectly causing fuel leaks, hydrolock (petrol lock might be a better way to put it) and vacuum leaks between the injectors and the heads. The third was out of the same stock but measured much more accurately. OK, I actually had 4 sets of fuel rails as I made a fuel rail out of hard maple to perfect the spacing before ruining more aluminium stock.
6) An inexpensive Ebay adjustable fuel pressure regulator with pressure gauge.
7) about $100 worth of various brass fittings and hydraulic hose before I got the fuel hoses satisfactory.
8) GM IAC valve.
9) 24 Ebay fuel injectors from for mustangs (5.0 and 4.6) I turned the barrel of these down a few thousands to fit them the stock injector holes in the heads.
10) Probabally 50 injector o-rings to get the injectors to seal to the fuel rail properly. (The first aluminium rails I also drilled to deep for the o-rings to bottem out and seal as well as not making a smooth enough radius at the opening so they chewed up o-rings on injector insertion). (I found that a 1/4" woodworking roundover bit chucked in the drillpress makes perfectly radiused "trumpets" for the injector holes in the fuel rail)
11) GM IAT sensor (Intake air tempature) and connector.
12) 8 Fuel injector connectors from a mustang.
13) Laptop for tuning
14) Targa universal AC/DC adapter for running the laptop off of the 12VDC cigarette lighter socket.
15) Extra fuel pump relay off of ebay to replace the one I blew up.
16) Soldering iron
17) Solder, wire, heat shrink tubing etc.
18) 2 12vdc relays. (Cheapies off of ebay have been working great)
19) Fuses and inline fuse holders (I would highly reccomend the megasquirt relay board instead)
20) Multimeter
21) Oscillascope (helped in diagnosing the loose connector that was keeping one of the banks of 4 injectors from firing but not necessary).
22) Battery charger.

The hardest part was probablly getting the initial VE table to get the 450 to start and run so here is a headstart for everyone else. Table at about 40psi fuel pressure and stock ford mustang (19 Lb if I recall correctly) injectors in two alternately firing banks.
EVEME 1.0
UserRev: 1.00
UserComment:
Date: 03-15-2007
Time: 21:04
Page 0
VE Table RPM Range [12]
[ 0] = 5
[ 1] = 8
[ 2] = 11
[ 3] = 14
[ 4] = 20
[ 5] = 26
[ 6] = 31
[ 7] = 37
[ 8] = 43
[ 9] = 49
[ 10] = 54
[ 11] = 60
VE Table Load Range (MAP) [12]
[ 0] = 30
[ 1] = 35
[ 2] = 45
[ 3] = 50
[ 4] = 55
[ 5] = 60
[ 6] = 70
[ 7] = 75
[ 8] = 80
[ 9] = 85
[ 10] = 95
[ 11] = 100
VE Table [ 12][ 12]
[ 0] [ 1] [ 2] [ 3] [ 4] [ 5] [ 6] [ 7] [ 8] [ 9] [ 10] [ 11]
[ 0] = 26 26 29 34 40 46 50 55 58 61 61 60
[ 1] = 29 29 32 38 46 53 56 60 63 66 65 62
[ 2] = 38 42 39 44 53 61 65 67 69 73 71 66
[ 3] = 43 44 43 45 54 63 66 69 71 75 73 67
[ 4] = 48 46 48 50 58 65 69 71 73 77 75 69
[ 5] = 52 51 52 55 62 67 71 73 75 79 77 71
[ 6] = 57 59 61 65 69 72 76 78 81 85 85 80
[ 7] = 61 62 65 69 72 75 79 82 85 89 88 84
[ 8] = 65 66 69 73 76 78 82 86 90 93 92 88
[ 9] = 68 70 73 78 81 83 86 90 94 98 97 93
[ 10] = 72 77 82 87 90 93 95 100 105 109 108 103
[ 11] = 74 81 86 91 95 97 100 105 111 114 113 108
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post #19 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-17-2007, 01:11 PM
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Good GOD! I wonder if I could rig something like this up for my 108's 4.5... just about the same engine, isn't it?
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post #20 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-19-2007, 06:13 PM
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It was a lot of work and ended up being a little more than a weekend project but it was definitely worth it!!!! I still have a lot of clean up work to do now that my 450slc is running well.

I disagree with the statement that the CIS injection system is good at dumping in a lot of fuel and making good power at high RPM. This couldn't be further than the truth.

In Naturally Aspirated engines powered by octane, maximum power is frequently reached at AFRs ranging from 12.5 - 13.3:1 or λ of 0.85 - 0.90. Richer mixtures can result in lower power due to slower burn speeds.

My 450 has hugh power gains at high RPM by being fed a proper air and fuel mixture. The CIS injection system doesn't come close to maintaining a proper AFR hence lousy gas mileage and lousy power.
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