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Vito 108 cdi 1999 Hard Gear change

17K views 30 replies 10 participants last post by  van_owner 
#1 ·
Hi All,

Just after some opinions on my tough gear change problem.

Firstly, i have read every thread regarding the 'Reverse Lever' chnage to improve selecting reverse - 2nd/4th, which are my main trouble gears. I have the lever on order and am awaiting delivery, am hoping the fitting of the lever will help a lot - however im not convinced.

The gears were always a bit tricky to engage but have got dramatically worse fairly quickly - to the point where reverse is impossible to get. The gear stick is now so stiff to pull back, i describe it like there is Tar or Glue in the gear box - even with two hands it cant selected 2nd/reverse.

Now my query- surely wear on the lever wouldnt cause such a stiff feeling at the stick end? Ive WD40'd the whole tower area on the gearbox and its made no difference.

Is it more likely that the cables are gunked up and need lubricating? or could the gear box or diff oil have got so cruddy it causes such extreme stiffness at the stick end?

Ill change the 'Cage' and plastic peg as suggested a million times first, lube the cables but leave the cable adjustment alone and go from there.

Hopefully the replacement cage will solve the issue - but its the stiffness at the stick that is causing me to think its something more than a worn part?

Any ideas/suggestions would be greatly appreciated,

Cheers,
 
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#2 ·
Disconnect the cables from the gearbox and play with the lever.
This will tell you if the stiffness is in the gear lever/ cables or gearbox.
If it's still stiff, disconnect the cables from the back of the gear stick and have another play.
This will direct you to the cause of the stiffness.
If all seems nice and loose in the cables, lever and gearbox selector mechanism, consider changing the oil in the gearbox.
Ask anyone what oil to use and chances are they will tell you the wrong oil. There are a lot of suggestions.
The truth is these Getrag 288, 5-speed manual boxes take automatic fluid!
Yes this is correct. Auto fluid?
ATF- IV, standard or synthetic.
I'm running ATF-IV Synthetic in my 5 speed box and it shifts really nice.
Let us know how you go.


Failure is not an option! ?
 
#3 ·
Thanks for your suggestions. I have done all the above to try and pin point the cause of the stiffness with no joy. I reckon the problem is in the box itself as i have disconnected everything and am still unable to select any downward gears by hand at the box itself.
I cant believe that the oil is in such bad condition that it would prevent any downward gear being selected?

I have tried the cable adjustment to Mercs spec and if anything made all gears harder to select - but with no effect on the ease of selecting reverse/2nd/4th.

I cant think of anything that could be causing such a resistance at the stick except for a problem inside the box?

I have found a second hand box for £115 and if it comes to it i may try and get it swapped out - would anyone have a rough idea of what this would cost through a mechanic?

Cheers,
Andy
 
#4 ·
out of interest... where in uk are you?

most of the reverse kit emails start with me... the standard photo and the one used by ciceley commercials and others is actually my pic.

if you were in range I might be able to offer help (I'm in lancashire / manchester / mersey)

when I first had the problem I found no help.. hence my numerous posts....

my first vito wouldn't change gear... it was ok when I bought it but went downhill rapidly.. it became difficult to engage and rapidly became very "gluey" stiff..... the reverse kit cage had worn one of its pivots and was causing the problem... when it came out it hardly seemed worn.. but obviously was.... I gambled that a £30 part was worth the risk.

after it was done, I found out it had been through a couple of garages and enthusiasts... all of whom adjusted cables (there are adjusters under the gear lever, accessed through ashtray) to the point nothing worked properly... they'd spent a couple of hundred pounds on fiddling instead of £50 getting the kit replaced.

if anybody does want a kit... its about £30 from merc or I can post one (I have a spare) for £25inc

malcolm
 
#5 ·
Hi,

The linkage parts on the top of the gearbox also seize up and wear horrendously causing bad / stiff engagement.

HTH

Dave
 
#6 ·
Dave.

its the linkages on top of the gearbox that are properly called (mercs very misleading title) the reverse gear repair kit..... its common to all 638 manual boxes.

please note..... the linkage should be totally clean.... clean it with jizer then alcohol (meths or isopropyl)... do NOT grease or lubricate EITHER linkages or gearbox end of cables... dirt and grime stick to the lubricant and form a gungy glue that seizes everything up.

malcolm
 

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#7 ·
Hi Malcolm,

Merc is misleading with that LOL, I always understood it to be a kit that goes in the gear shifter mech LOL

Anyway that's what I was on about, the pivots seize, see loads of them up here because of all the salt on roads and in the west coast air.

We do use a lot of spray grease in them, because they don't last 5 mins otherwise.

Have also done shifter mech's on ours too but that causes a sloppy gearchange when the plastic bits wear rather than stiff :wink

Thanks for that Malcolm, learn something new every day :wink

Cheers Dave
 
#8 ·
Hi Malcolm/Dave,

Thanks for your input and offers of help. Having replaced the 'reverse gear cage' - all missing bushes from shift assembly, counter weight arm e.t.c, checked cables - I gave up and got the local Gearbox centre to take a look.
Well, they think they have tracked the problem back to the actual 'Gear selector head assembly'! So turns out all my fixes were at the wrong end of the problem.

I'm still surprised that it went from working to stiffer to completely knackered over several weeks. Anyhow, they gearbox centre has quoted £559.14 to put right, saying the part is £321 inc. 2 x new cables.
This seems ridiculously steep considering I can get the Selector head off Ebay for £35 and I don't believe I need 2 x new cables.

So I guess I will have a go at swapping it out for a second hand unit and hope for the best, a couple of questions if you don't mind;

Q. What part of the assembly is likely to break and cause all downward gears to become impossible to select?

Q. Has anyone swapped out the gear selector assembly and is there anything I'd need to look out for - from what I can see its four bolts holding it on above the ashtray in the cab, disconnect the cables, swap It over, re attach the cables and adjust to Merc spec sheet that Malcolm has kindly provided.

Cheers for the assistance guys,
Andy
 
#9 ·
sorry to hear its probably the "shift shaft" thats gone wrong.... the argument on the "reverse kit" is that its the cheapest and easiest to replace and frequently the cause of problems plus, of course, you can't start diagnosing until you have a known starting place..... personally I hate the "adjusters" who continually cost people money without ever getting anywhere.

I attach the MB instructions on the whole gearbox issue.... including replacing the "shift shaft".... its not as difficult as someone might suppose..

a couple of bits though...

check the "shift shaft" document against your engine number / typ... there are a couple of variations... and say if its the wrong engine type

although it might seem unnecessary... I find it quicker and easier to strip the front off (bumper, radiator not bumper support cross member).... it doesn't take long but gives excellent access to the gearbox/ shift mechanism especially if working in a garage / drive situation

it shouldn't be necessary to remove the gearbox

malcolm
 

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#10 ·
Malcolm your a True gent.

From what i can gather the Gearbox guys have said the fault is in worn components of the 'Selector head assembly' what i'd descirbed as the cradle below the actual gear stick where the cables attaches inside the cab.

I have sourced a second hand one ebay from a 2000 VITO W638 - 110 cdi and reckon it looks the same for £35 - so if their diagnosis is correct - having already replaced most other moving parts of the system, this could solve the issue?! I hope.

It will certainly be cheaper than paying the gearbox centre £560 for what should be a fairly straight forward swap.

I appreciate all the help and the PDF's are really useful.

Cheers
Andy
 
#11 ·
wouldn't have been my suspicion.... they last 1/4million miles and tend to get "slack" as they wear, making the gear lever "loose" in operation but hitting the sides of the gearlever "hole" before engaging gear.

remove ashtray (couple of screws hold it in)

if a "gaiter" type gearlever cover... the gaiter is held in place with a giant spring clip around its edge CAREFUL its easily snapped... remove from above.. lift gaiter

if a "ball" type cover.... it is removable after gearknob is removed and central dash cover removed... screws in top vent, bottom of radio hole... then lifted from above.

"snap" cables off gearchange mechanism (ball and socket fitting, snap together or apart)

from underneath (through hole where ashtray was) its 4 hex head bolts holding the mechanism to the frame.

not difficult but awkward

and certainly not expensive from merc (if it IS the mechanism)

malcolm
 
#12 ·
Hi Malcolm, again, thanks for you assistance with what is fast becoming a very annoying issue!

The latest update - i returned to the Gearbox Centre to collect the Vito - still only able to select Third gear and first at a struggle, the guy at the counter confirmed they had diagnosed a seized 'Gear selector' - so i double checked he was referring to the Mechanism below the Gear stick, yes - they had to remove the cables to confirm it was in fact seized and causing the trouble.

I had already checked the lever without cables attached,prior to giving up, and didn't feel like the gear stick had any restricted movement in any direction and visual inspection looked fine. So i was also surprised to hear that a Specialist gearbox Centre have claimed it to be the cause.

Regardless, i have now got a second hand unit coming from Ebay so will see if there is any non-obvious differences in their range of movement/stiffness e.t.c, i popped the cables of again after collecting it tonight and am now even less convinced that the Gear lever mechanism above the ashtray is at all faulty.

If its not the cause of fault do you think i have the right to return to the Gearbox centre and ask for an explanation of their £40 incorrect diagnosis fee?

Any further ideas to the cause in the meantime would still be appreciated.

Cheers.
 
#13 ·
Well - feeling well and truly fobbed off by the Gearbox 'Experts' I am certain (As Malcolm has suggested) that the mechanism below the gear stick is at all faulty as it has full range of movement when shift cables aren’t attached – therefore it would seem logical to go back to the original assumption that the problem lies within the Pivots/mechanism at the gearbox end.

Having replaced and remedied all accessible bits I am narrowing it down (also suggested by Malcolm) to the Gear Shift Shaft on top of the box – a part I am unfamiliar with as most of it isn’t visible from the rubber dust sleeve down.

From what I can gather the shaft needs to move freely up and down – actioned by the yellow ended cable and assisted by the othe cable attached to the ‘reverse gear selector cage’ that fits into the shaft with the infamous worn black plastic bushing.

By hand – the shaft seems very stiff to push/Pull up and down – this stiffness would explain the incredibly hard downward gear selection.

If any of you guys could confirm that ALL downward gears require the shift shaft to move up to engage them then I reckon it’s got to be the culprit! Also I have no idea how to remove it from the gear box in order to lubricate or replace.

I’ll try and attach the parts list that shows the shaft I’m talking about - is it held down only by bolt/stud 143 and 149 on diagram?

Any final tips on removal of the shaft would be massively appreciated and opinions on it being a likely cause of the Vito’s symptoms.

Thanks in advance.
 

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#14 ·
YES COMPLAIN

you asked for a diagnosis and it appears to be completely wrong.... money back for incompetence

It would also fall foul of the sale of goods act

as a general rule... I pay by paypal (online) or credit card (even if only part payment)... then, if it doesn't work out, paypal or the credit card company will give you your money back.......... NOTE it doesn't work with a debit card. (I pay then payoff the credit card immediately).. I've learned by getting ripped off (I had a flat roof replaced and they put it on backwards... a year later we're still arguing.. a credit card deposit would have solved it in weeks)

its all in the pdfs supplied... it is only a couple of bolts.. after removing the reverse gear cage on top.

BEFORE going any further... pop the cables off top and bottom.... check they both have no restrictions in movement

if the selector shaft is really stiff, it is likely to be the problem.. although its not easy to move when in position.
 
#15 ·
Vito 2005 RWD

My friend has bought herself a 2005 RWB 5 speed Vito.

She's having difficulty engaging reverse gear. She doesn't seem to have the strength to be forceful with the gear lever as it seems fine for me, though it could be easier as its stiffer than my Sprinter (seems to be a similar set-up)

The cables seem free enough. All forward gears seem okay. One of the suggestions is to replace part No. A0002600437, however that may be for the FWD vans. If it is, any suggestions on making this problem better and what with please?

Thanks in advance
 
#16 ·
Pogue22 - Just wondering if you ever resolved this?

Malcom - Thanks for your help in this thread and many others, I have taken your advice and ordered a reverse gear selector cage from Ciceley Merc (I've used them before and found them helpful). Ours is very difficult (read impossible) to get into 2nd gear when its cold (for a couple of minutes anyway), I fear its something altogether more sinister but I'm willing to take a punt of faith based on your advice!
 
#19 ·
lets try and get it straight....

2 cables.... 1 onto the lever on the gearbox... the other onto the replaceable "cage" (reverse gear kit)

the "lever" one changes the selector left and right (left to right on the gearknob)

the "cage" one lifts the selector up and down

when worn out, the lever will move left and right, normally, but gets increasingly difficult to move up and down...... called the "reverse" kit because you can move left to the reverse position but not up or down to select.

if the plastic is worn... get a new unit... at less than £30 its worth it............ it either fixes the problem (95% of time) or points in the right direction.

if the plastic is worn... the joints will be too "wide" for proper useage... even though you might think its ok

the "ball" on the lever / cable doesn't wear significantly and rarely affects anything.

when I got my 1st vito there was no info and little on the forum... it was try it yourself and pray...

its nice to see the thread still helps (I've re-posted it several times) and even more satisfying that the suppliers (esp ciceley) use my photos of the part... BUT I STILL HAVEN'T HAD ANY PREZZIES.... hint hint

malcolm
 
#20 ·
Hi,

I have followed this thread from the get go with interest, as for most of my life, Transmissions have been my core business, and now, more latterly, Diagnostics, which I stress means Correct Diagnosis, rather than replacing components based on fault codes alone, or worse still "guesswork" .

Malcolm is correct, but there is also another issue, which I reckon is what Pogue22 had ...........

After the "Reverse Linkage", and Cables, and Gearlever Gearstick Shifter assy have been eliminated, (by disconnecting in various places), then the usual culprit of stiff gearchange, as opposed to "notchy / hard to engage / baulky", will be the Selector Tower Assembly which is part of the gearbox ..........

The part on the gearbox with the rod that rotates and goes up and down and goes through inside the gearbox :wink

These have bearings in them that seize up due to all the Salt on our roads, and more so on vans that don't get used on a daily basis. Very prevalent in NW Highlands where I live.

Some can be overhauled with gearbox still in the vehicle, and some cannot.

I reckon in Pogue22's case that is what the workshop guy who did his original diagnosis at that gearbox firm meant, but then upon speaking to someone else at the same firm, this got lost in translation due to a lack of communication, and turned into "Gear Lever Selector in the Cabin" :wink

HTH,

Cheers Dave
 
#21 ·
Well having driven 500+ miles last weekend, i can say the reverse is only slightly better. Still have to fight/force it left then down for reverse location!

Also i have developed a 1st gear issue, in that 3-4 out of 10 times trying to select 1st, it nearly goes in, then either crunches or slips that final 10% of location to then drive forward.

So as much as the "reverse kit" clearly needed replacing, it hasn't made a huge difference i was hoping for :frown
 
#22 · (Edited)
Hi,

Are you sure you don't have an issue with your clutch, dragging slightly ??

1st and Rev are always awkward if a clutch is dragging even very slightly :wink

If you are rolling to a stop, from less than 5 mph will it snick into first nicely ??

If it isn't clutch then the other possibilities are Gear Lever Assembly worn, that is always worse with gears on the left gate, i.e. when moving lever to the left to select, or could be incorrect cable adjustment, especially if they were previously adjusted to compensate for the worn linkage parts you have just replaced, or could be a Gearbox issue ........

This is very hard to diagnose properly without actually driving / examining the Van, I know I could tell you within 15 minutes exactly what is wrong, but sadly you are a few hundred miles away from me.

A "GOOD" gearbox specialist is hard to find now, there are so many Cowboy outfits about, try and get a recommendation from a reputable car dealer, who has used the same Gearbox firm for many years and trusts them :wink

Cheers Dave
 
#23 ·
Tbh the 1st gear issue has only recently started, & was after my mech adjusted them. Before i knew they are super sensitive to change. Plus i don't always fully depress the clutch lol. Price of having an Auto SLK230 as my main drive!

So it's more the reverse locating that's the main fight i have! :crying
 
#24 · (Edited)
Hi Andy did you ever resolve your gear change issues..? I've been reading this thread and others with interest since my 108 CDI gear change has gone from fine to impossible in a matter of days - and i did replace the clutch and flywheel etc. after the slave cylinder failed a few weeks ago but it was still fine when back on the road.
I turned the little black plastic thingy around yesterday and that made zero difference and today I will fit the infamous "reverse Gear kit" that arrived today from Ciceley Mercedes via eBay for £44.47 - for and yes Malcolm they are still using your picture :)
However, I am treading the same path as you and it would be really useful to know what the ultimate solution was for you in case I'm following the same list of potential fixes?
Cheers.. Glenn
 
#27 ·
Hi again Malcolm, was going to fit the Gear tower kit today but tried the gear stick without the engine running first. Gear shift feels smooth and slick without the motor running...?
As the clutch was replaced along with the slave cylinder and flywheel just about 400 miles ago is the clutch likely to be the suspect..?
I have noticed a judder when reversing up a slight incline..?
Gears changed fine immediately following the new clutch..

Cheers.. Glenn
 
#28 · (Edited)
W638 difficult gear Selection - Solved..?

Solved - well diagnosed partially... :-(

After fitting the Merc "reverse gear Kit" there was zero improvement - so i took it for a wee spin to see if anything loosened up.
Pulled into a car park and with the pedal to the floor the clutch would not disengage at all. Only way to get any gears was with the engine off and to start it in gear.. makes driving interesting..!!

So after the OEm slave cylinder failed 4 months and just 1,500 miles ago the Vito was fitted with a complete single mass flywheel, clutch kit and concentric slave cylinder by my local trusted garage and kit supplied by NCDUK (Nationwide Clutch Distributors UK Ltd) trading as Techniclutch on eBay - yes I know i should have researched the reviews first - I didn't

Garage don't have a lift free until next week so will have to wait until the box is off to see what has failed..
 
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