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The Final Straw

16K views 55 replies 10 participants last post by  cadbob 
#1 ·
Well, as I previously posted in another thread, my SL needs new catalytic converters, as the old ones are now "below the efficiency threshold", and trip the check engine light. I can clear the DTC and it works fine for a 150 miles or so, then trips the light again.

While I was hoping to get this fixed over the next few months, this "wonder car" decided to make my mind up once and forever as to whether I should keep pouring money into it or cut my loses and move on.

This morning, I got in the car, and only a few block away from the house, while waiting at a stop light, the ABC - Visit Workshop message came up, followed a few seconds later by the red ABC - Drive Carefully message, which wouldn't go away. I pulled up to the curb, and noticed a trail of fluid behind the car, with fluid dripping from under the front corner of the car.

So I drove the car home, and checked the ABC reservoir level, and sure enough it's empty. I went back to the car a couple of hours later, and now the car is basically sitting on the tires, and when I started the engine I got the ABC Stop - Car Too Low.

So the possibilities are, broken pressure lines, bad/broken valve block, broken accumulators, bad/leaking strut... have I missed anything?

Whell, this is the end! I simply can't continue pouring money into this thing, regardless of how much I like it. So I'll fix this last thing, and then put the car up for sale.

It's been fun, but at what cost? I don't have the financial means to keep this up.

If anyone is interested send me a PM and I'll provide details.
 
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#2 ·
You're likely have chewed up your pump running it dry... so that will be added on top of what's broken with the car.

Good luck with your next vehicle
 
#3 · (Edited)
My guess would be a broken pressure hose. It is frustrating that MBZ can't seem to make a simple 3,000psi hose that doesn't leak. The main pressure hose on mine had a pinhole leak at 6 years/40K miles, and the same thing happened - white warning, then a few miles down the road, red warning. Luckily I was across the street from an AutoZone. I made it into the parking lot before it sat on the wheels and I shut it down. I popped the hood and saw where oil had sprayed from a tiny stream out of the hose. They had 2 quarts of CHF-11s in stock. So $50 later, the reservoir was filled the car raised, and I made the 10 mile drive back home without any issues. Mine was a slow leak, so I couldn't even see any loss after the trip home. I still parked it until I replaced the hose.
 
#4 ·
I agree with Rudeney, most likely the hoses, other components would have internal leaks rather than leaks to the outside.

When I did my hoses, I have considered the option of getting compression joints and replacing with a higher pressure rating. Maybe I should have done that, but when I saw the specs of custom hoses, what stopped me was the lower temperature rating of 100 C as opposed to 120 C of Mercedes hoses made by continental as far as I remember. I don't think it would go higher than 100 C but I preferred hoses to be more heat resistant.

Maybe one day someone will come up with a higher rating hose kit with compression joints or even metal pipes shaped for the areas where hoses are, it's a worthwhile idea that will make a lot of money.
 
#5 ·
My thought is that modern civilization has been using high pressure hydraulic systems for many decades now, so we should be able to make them not to fail so readily. For the ABC system, it will always need rubber hoses in order to flex as the engine rocks and the suspension articulates and rubber will wear out over time, but I think in my case, there was definitely a manufacturing defect.
 
#6 ·
Truth be told, I use to have a lot of resentment for the ABC lines design, but when I tried to improve them, I couldnt do much, considering the following logistics:

- Components need to flex and move, usage of solid lines is not possible in every line.
- Components need to be serviceable, rubber hoses make for easy removal
- Long solid lines are nightmare to remove and reroute, read posts of those that needed to replace their high pressure line
- Rubber deteriorate, no reasonable person should expect hydraulic line with 3000PSI to last for more than 10 years
- Tires dont last on the shelf for more than 10 years, with 35PSI in them, just as a reference...

When ABC is approached from a realistic and reasonable point of view, that Cobra took when he bought his car, an approach that accepts wear and tear as a fact of life, and that there is no free lunch (depreciation of used cars happen for a reason), R230 will be a happy camper

When rubber is maintained, with preventive maintenance, or with the notion that it will need serviced soon, ABC, and an R230 in general, will have a lot more to offer
 
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#7 ·
So it turns out it is one of the pressure hoses. The one in question has the metal tubing that comes for the valve block, as far as I can see, then it has a short (~10") flexible hose then it goes back to a fitted tubing that runs up against the side of the engine.

The mechanic basically is saying that it would involve either lifting the engine or moving the transmission to get the hose out. So I'm looking at hundreds of dollars, if not more in labor alone.

Has anyone done any DIY on these to cut and replace the flex hose part, without removing the pipe?

Thinking like maybe cut the flex section out right where the metal tubing starts, then use some kind of compression fittings? or maybe even weld the fitting. Would that be able to withstand the pressure?
 
#9 ·
That was expected, this is the main pressure hose, and takes the highest beating out of all of them.

Replacing the hose requires removal of exhaust, intake box, ignition coils, and engine mount, lower engine cradle, and tons of heat and mud shields. Tranny is not even remotely in the way, so I am not sure what your mechanic is trying.

The hose goes from the rear of driver wheel sell, into the firewall, up around the steering shaft, and back down into the engine compartment, then down into the lower wheel well, to end into the valve body.

The job is near impossible without a lift.

Took me about a day and half to do one, aka about 10 hours. so a good shop will do it for less than a grand.

The hose is less than 200 from dealership. There is no way to crimp it in place, because the crimper that makes 3000+psi ends is bigger than the car itself. by the time you take the hose out to recrimp it, you might as well install a factory one.

Dont bother remove the old one in one piece, get an air tool, and remove it in pieces.

The new one will require slight bends, but good news is it runs along side a secondary line, that gives you a guide on how to straighten it, and attach it back to the body. I found usage of zip ties to hold the pipe very handy, while you affix back the Mercedes pipe fastners

Finally the T junction (3way into the hose you're replacing, rear valve body, and pressure regulator) often freeze, so make sure you account for these parts, in case you need them
 
#10 ·
This line doesn't move as far as I know and flex is not required, it is connected to central area and front valve block going around steering column and left side of engine, very hard to remove and replace


Here is a link on how I replaced the hose with original, it was a pain:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r230-sl-class/2171385-sl500-rejuvination-5.html#post11731873

If I was to do it again I would use a custom made hose with compression joints or even an extension of wide brake line (just like when they replace portions rusty brake lines, look it up on youtube)

The question remains, if you were to use a brake line of a similar diameter instead of a hydraulic hose, I wonder if the lack of rubber buffer would put more stress on other areas long term, I wonder if a design where a small accumulator can be added with a metal pipe could act like a hydraulic hose substitute.
 
#12 ·
OP, SinSL advice for you is tow the car to the nearest junkyard, and be happy with the $200 you get for it in scrap metal...

well, its 4800Lbs car, so you may get $300...
 
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#13 ·
bayhas advice, when OP complained how unaffordable the car is, is to waste good money on a hose repair only to find out that you also need a pump and the car still needs catalytic converters. House is just one issue of many. It is unlikely to even get the car mobile again.

The hose won't get him to "pristine car, everything works" that will get him top dollar as used, and you won't get money back from fixes unless it is DIY.

So why throw money at this boondoggle?
 
#14 ·
Without repairing the suspension the car will only sell as parts/project car, and will not even fetch 50% of book value.

The problems with the car are all wear and tear components, such as leaky rubber hose, possibly damaged pump, and worn cat converter.

When the person cannot even afford to maintain a car, what makes you think they can afford to sell their car as junk instead of running used car to trade in???

Not to mention that your despise of the model is not a good reason to consider the car doomed for eternity, if these are the only problems with it, the car will be in great shape once these 2 (possibly 3 areas) are addressed, the car will switch hands to someone more interested in owning the car, and attending to its needs, everyone is happy, life goes on...
 
#15 ·
BTW, the blown hose is 100 bucks to replace DIY, but I dont recommend DIYing it to anyone, including those that love working on car.

Shop should charge 1000 or so, the cat is 700, and no more than 200 to install

All in all about 2K, and there is no reason the car should not fetch its book value.

Without these repairs, the car will only sell as project on craigslist, for 2-3 grands.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Shop should charge 1000 or so, the cat is 700, and no more than 200 to install

All in all about 2K, and there is no reason the car should not fetch its book value.
KBB places good condition 2005 SL, 100K at private sale for $11K. It will be less in San Francisco if you attempt local sale due to oversupply of used luxury cars. So you have to sell it nationally and eat shipping costs. It will be a lot less as trade-in, as it will be directly sent to the auction.

While bayhas repair numbers are overly optimistic, lets go with them. Say $2K to fix known problems, another $500 + $30/liter of CHF + labor to gamble on a refill with used ABC pump just to get it running long enough to sell the car.

So best-case scenario, you are spending nearly 30% of car's highest expected sale value. Is it worth it? What if there are further complications, like new fluid washing up gunk and causing issues with valves? What if the car isn't going to sell easily, as there is no market for old R230 due to known ABC issues?

OP has a parts car, he made sure of that when he let the ABC system run dry instead of stopping and having it towed. This shouldn't be surprising when major systems fail on a 12 year old car.
 
#18 ·
Ok, maybe I should clear up a few things.

First, I'm pretty sure the pump is OK, as I was able to get the car home, and it was still on it's wheels, yes the dip stick showed empty, but not dry. There was still about 1" worth of liquid at the bottom of the stick. When I came back to the car a few hours later, it was by then sagging, and more fluid had spilled out.

So there was still some fluid in the car by the time I got it home. Subsequently, the car was towed to the shop. how the problem will be fixed is still to be determined, but replacing the rubber hose with a custom made piece using compression fittings is a possibility, which should reduce the cost considerably (around $500).

Once the car is drivable, the cats will still need replacement but not for another year, if I should still keep the car, or until I need to sell it and smog it.

Nevertheless, with regards to the value and availability of the car. I just did a search on CarGurus, AutoTrader, CraigsList, Edmunds and a couple of other lists, and there just aren't that many SL500 available here (all of Bay Area). Everything added up to exactly 15 distinct cars with the lowest price car being a 2003 for $14995.

My car in particular, is in pretty good shape both exterior and interior, with the only "knockdowns" being the high mileage (140K), and the trunk "soft close" which has never worked for me. Everything else is there, and as an added bonus it has a MoBridge iPod integration with Bluetooth. KBB fair market value for the car with those options is $11500.

I'm pretty sure that given the relative scarcity of the car, I can get at least $9-10K for the car once it's fixed up. If I put $2K in it to fix everything (cats and ABC), I can still clear $7-8K.

So I'm not so sure it's ready for the wrecking yard just yet.
 
#19 ·
I'm not so sure it's ready for the wrecking yard just yet.
Its not, in SinSL world, all R230 are worthy of a junkyard, just ignore the noise

I'm pretty sure the pump is OK, as I was able to get the car home, and it was still on it's wheels, yes the dip stick showed empty, but not dry. There was still about 1" worth of liquid at the bottom of the stick. When I came back to the car a few hours later, it was by then sagging, and more fluid had spilled out.
on the orther hand, I must play the devil advocate here, you are not in the clear.

When the hose blows, the following sequence of events take place:

1- pressure drops

2- the ABC controller tries to take evasive action

3- Valve bodies are locked (so the car does not sag while being operated)

4- the intake restriction valve at the reservoir closes, to slow down fluid loss

5- however this subsequently minimizes the amount of fluid making it into the pump pistons, if it runs for too long with limited fluid, it will grind itself.

6- when the car is parked, valve bodies open, releasing back the fluid left, and sagging the car.

7- lack of pressure will never bring the car back up once it sags, even if you start it again.

8- additional leakage when the car is parked is often coming from where the fluid already splashed when the hose lost pressure.

For all of the above, the pump could be damaged, but I hope not, as Mercedes warns against running the pump dry, even for seconds...

Make sure the mechanic primes the pump with compressed air, before declaring the pump damaged.

Good luck
 
#20 ·
Question:

The ABC pump is a ABC/power steering tandem pump. If the ABC side fails shouldn't that also affect the power steering?

I've never seen the inner working of one so I don't know exactly how they function, but I assume that they have shared parts like the input shaft.
 
#21 ·
They are essentially two separate pumps, sharing one spinning axle, to better package components under the hood.

You can blow one and not the other, unless the pump is damaged to the point of binding and freezing, the other side will not even know about it.
 
#22 ·
additional leakage when the car is parked is often coming from where the fluid already splashed when the hose lost pressure
Yeah, no kidding! When my main pressure hose leaked, it left about a quart of fluid sitting on top of the under body panels. When I lifted the front end for the repair, it all leaked out ahead of the rear wheel. I ended up removing the panels and cleaning them so I didn't chase oil spots in the garage for the next month.

Regarding the viability of the pump when losing fluid, I'm no expert in this, but I think it has some level of tolerance. Mine ran for about 5 minutes after the red warning message and I did hear some not so nice sounds coming form it, but once the hoe was replaced and fluid refilled, it's been fine now, probably around 10K miles. Now, min is the MY2007+ revised model, so maybe it's more durable, or, maybe it will die tomorrow. It doesn't matter because it's working today and I'm enjoying driving it today.
 
#24 ·
Today I got the car back. SO the mechanic didn't want to go to all the trouble to pull the line out, so he did a partial replacement.

He bought a new pipe, which has more turns than the freaking Nurburgring, then proceeded to cut the affected piece (the part with the rubber hose), and replaced it using a compression fitting.

So basically I now have a new line and hose starting from the valve black, going through the flexible hose and ending just beyond the 2nd turn of the metal tubing, where it connects to the original tubing via a compression fitting.

It turns out I was also pretty lucky as the pump was OK, so the total cost of all this work, parts, fluid refill, etc added up to $1100.
 

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#26 · (Edited)
We'll have to see, and yes, the mechanic has warranted this for 30 days, plus I have a pretty good relationship with him, and I'm pretty sure he'll make good on it regardless.

Anyway, we have some of the worst road conditions here in the Bay Area, and I'm pretty sure that if the problem is to surface, it will happen in pretty short order.

BTW, there was no crimping that I could see. What he did was use a double ended compression fitting like this, where he made the splice.
 

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#56 ·
My pipe Burst at the Rubber, so if I'm getting this repair correct, you bought a whole new hose, cut it at the metal pipe, than cut on car hose at metal pipe and used compression fitting. Is that correct?

do you have part number for High-Pressure hose at rear valve block and the size type of compression joint?

Pic attached is where mine blew out.
 

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#27 ·
My guess is it should be OK as long as pressure rating of joint is good enough to deal with ABC pressure, some brace/copper ones can be quite brittle and pressure sensitive, however if it is steel it might be very well stronger than rubber hose. Glad you are on the road again!
 
#28 ·
So for the moment, I'm driving the car and it feels good. I put about 205miles since I got it back, and today I took it back to the shop to see how it's doing. We put it up on a hoist, and there are no leaks whatsoever.

So far so good.

This basically give me time to find the replacement car I want without feeling rushed or forced into it.

I'm actually considering getting R170 SLK daily driver, and keeping the SL for weekend or long drives. haven't decided yet.
 
#29 ·
I had a R170 before my SL, it is a fun practical small car, but noticeably smaller than SL, I had my share of maintenance with this one, it is easier to work on than the SL.
If no suspension work was done before, then prepare yourself for changing bushings, control arms, motor mounts, tranny mount, there is also a supercharnger issue with earlier models. Hard top cylinders seem to fail around 100k mile, also the high pressure line for power steering fails around that mileage. I used to have another account in here in the R170, back then in 2009 I had a car PC installed in the car with a touch screen and everything, now it is a norm to have those things in autos. I crashed it in 2012 and was sad about letting it go.
 
#30 ·
As you can probably see from my summary, I used to own a '98 SLK230. Loved the little car, had everything just right on it, had redone the interior (that red paint on the console was peeling off), had bluetooth, ipod integration, new projector headlights, new wheels, and then boom... gone.

Imagine going down the street doing 30-35 mph, and the other car coming from the opposite direction, when they decide to turn left, right in front of you with no time to react. I plowed straight into their front right corner, totaling the SLK, and their car, which happened to be a 2013 SL550.

I was heartbroken (and broken) for a few weeks. But alt least they admitted they were at fault and paid for everything, including $30K worth of hospital bills for me.
 
#31 ·
This is the same model I had, mine was dark blue, I had it when I was a student at Loma Linda, CA. I liked it, but honestly I like the R230 more, it is more techy and I feel more secure in it, and there is more space for more things. I know how it feels to throw a car away, I went over a curve in a dark provincial road in Ontario back in 2012 and it saved my life but fixing it was going to cost me more than the car itself.
 
#35 ·
Limited visibility on a provincial road with a curve ahead of me, ran through the curve and collided with a number of wooden posts with wires tying them together, one of the posts hit the windshield but didn't go through it.
I was looking for another SLK after I crashed mine, but then I opened my mind to other options, ended up buying a BMW 325 rag top which I didn't immensely like. Then I set my mind on getting a R230 after being impressed with it's features. I love my SL500, I would probably get a newer one if I was to change cars.
 
#36 ·
I know its already been stated, but its absolutely absurd to send an SL to a junkyard, EVER. i completely non running SL with a convertible top that doesn't work is still worth a couple grand. I have my sights set on getting a non running R230 and dropping a heavily modified om648 in it, so i've been keeping my eyes on prices.

Also on that compression fitting, its most likely that the mechanic used a double flare on each end of the tubing. Its a brake line type fitting that actually expands and creates a tighter seal the more pressure you apply to it. if it was done correctly, i have no doubt it will last a long time.
 
#37 ·
I have my sights set on getting a non running R230 and dropping a heavily modified om648 in it, so i've been keeping my eyes on prices.
I'm rather puzzled by this. A few questions come to mind right off the bat:

1. Why would you drop a 3 liter diesel engine in a high performance car? Better MPG?
2. If you did, how will you marry that engine to the existing tranny?
3. Assuming you did that (or got a matching tranny), how will you get all that working with all the other subsystems in the R230.

For example, changing the ECU, which you'll probably have to do since I doubt the one from the original gas engine would work with the diesel, will force you to change the ECS, which will force you to change god knows what else.

There are so many different things in that car that are somehow tied to each other that I can only think that an engine change would force a complete gutting out of everything but the shell. A monumental undertaking and with a payout that would be less than the original car (in my opinion).
 
#39 ·
I have no intention of hijacking your thread, the swap comment was just made in passing when talking about SL prices. :p
 
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